tuning ideas/help/info, piggybacks, smt6?

[tim_s]

Hi guys,
I'm starting to look into what I'm going to do for fuelling on my 318is once the 2.1 and throttle bodies are in. unfortunately i don't have that much experience with modifying the fuel system.
my two main ideas at the mo are:
1) Keep the motronic and find someone who can properly reprogram it with a new chip to the new parameters, hopefully changing the AFM for a MAF in the process. i know this would be expensive, but if i could find someone to do it, i'd imagine it would be perfect for my needs.
2) Buy an SMT6 or similar piggyback. This seems like quite a good idea as i would be able to run a MAF (or mb even MAP) sensor, and hope that i could retune the car myself approximately before having it fine tuned.

I don't want to go to megasquirt due to reliability concerns, having to do significant rewiring, having the car off the road for a while and the complexity of having to program it. plus i reckon once i have sourced all the bits and paid for odds and sods it would probably be v expensive.

Other ideas floating around are adding lambda to my motronic setup (im hoping just adding the lambda probe to the existing socket under the battery will work?), guessing that this would help the car to fuel on part load with the new setup. I'm bearing in mind that i may need to go for slightly larger injectors too.
i'm basically interested in any input anyone can give on my ideas. i want to keep the costs down as I've spent a fortune on the engine and throttle bodies, but at the same time i want to do it properly, and it must work well for a daily-ish driver. I'm not worried about extracting the maximum performance out of the car so much as coming up with a solution that will work well and fuel smoothly for a road car.
cheers

[chip-3door]

If you are on bodies you dont want ANY sort of flow meter.

Map it RPM vs TPS


Megasquirt is fine but if you want something more "professional" with a warranty etc then try Wolf / Emerald / DTA / Autronic / MBE etc


Stand alone is the way to go, trying to piss about with the standard ECU and make it do things it doesnt want to is a stupid idea.

[Ant]

I don't want to go to megasquirt due to reliability concerns

what relaibility concerns ??

V3.0 is all automotive grade so no issues there M8

agreed its not the most proffesional out there but its 30% of the cost of everything else, you win some you loose some

[tim_s]

cheers for the replies guys. gulp, standalone = extra wonga i hadn't really budgeted for, but i need to do what's necessary ultimately. ant, how much would a megasquirt setup cost me by the time i've got the appropriate sensors etc and the megasquirt and had it tuned up to a standard where it works perfectly for daily driving? I seem to remember that it requires a change of coil on the m42 too, and i'm guessing i'd need a wideband lambda sensor? you can pm me a quote to supply me bits and do tuning if you'd be interested? obviously i'm not 100% on what i'm going to do, but having some idea of costs and what to expect from going this way would be good.
my concerns about reliability were that i thought the megasquirt itself had to be assembled etc which is not a problem for me, but ultimately i want something packaged and tested to use on my daily driver as i don't want breakdowns. its one of the reasons i have a bmw in the first place! i also don't want the car off the road for long periods of time to get it programmed, and due to seeing some messy installation and mapping problems from threads on here i'd kinda written it off as too 'dodgy'. im probably completely wrong, but thats the impression i'd got.

i need to get my head around the exact benefits of going standalone. i know i can rid myself of MAF or AFM, but in all honesty this isn't a massive concern of mine. having more sensors for the sake of accurate fuelling on part load and under different atmospheric conditions is fine by me even if it loses a few horsies. and i can use a MAP sensor on the SMT6 if really necessary (i was thinking of using a MAF though).
i'm worried that if i were to map throttle position versus rpm alone it would be rubbish at dealing with different atmospheric conditions etc. surely for a road car i want as many sensors as possible?

as for making the motronic ecu do things it wasn't meant to, i kinda see this p.o.v, but plenty of people get them working fine, and the motronic isn't that adaptive, so i'm guessing wouldn't give me too many headaches using a piggyback? a friend of mine used to have a similar era golf with motronic and a unichip that fuelled well and didn't 'go off' or anything.

I'm also bearing in mind that bmws with throttle bodies use AFMs and MAFs. the s14 for instance uses a similar motronic version to the m42, i know it doesn't give the most power, but runs smoothly etc which are my main concerns. similarly with the s50?

i'm probably completely wrong with my thinking, i just need you guys to explain why as i'm learning! i'd be interested if anyone has experience of piggybacks etc as i (evidently!) don't have much.
chip, you seem to think, in short, they're shit!?

btw ant, as an aside, as for the lambda on my m42 motronic, can i just plug up a bmw lambda sensor under the battery tray and away i go? or would that be a gross oversimplification!

[tim_s]

er, sorry for the essay lol! just had to get all me questions out there!

[Ant]

some long post there Tim !

you cant just add the 02, the chip needs a look up table for the EGO to work.

Alpha N is an excellent way to map an N/A car on Tbs, you can add barometric correction so atmospheric copnditions can be catered for

the M42 uses the standard 60-2 pickup but uses a cam position sensor to fire the coils @ the right time, easilest way around that is to use an EDIS4 coilpack triggered directly from the ECU.


Biggest hassle with all options is looming it out, I ran mine out and got it all working, then went back through and tidied it all up into the OE loom runs, looks factory mate.

[StreetSpec]

main reason for deleting the AFM/MAF is to make sure you get the most out of the throttles. i know the ITB'd BMW engines still run them, but in all honesty, if you are going to the trouble of fitting ITBs, ideally you'd want to get the most out of them by haveing the intake as de-resticed as possible.

u guys get microtech over there? it is a cheaper, but still effective computer. i'd get (and hope to get) something like that, and run it piggy-backed in conjunction with the std computer. going FULL standalone requires more work.

[chip-3door]

I know a guy who installs and sets up megasquirt, he has done an M3 turbo before with the system and is very competant, do you want some contact details?

[tim_s]

chip, that would be really good, but there's no rush as i'm still doing a lot of homework, and feel i need to get my knowledge sorted. if i went to megasquirt i would have get someone else to at least do the tuning. ant, is this something you do too?

i'm still looking into things at the moment, i need to improve my understanding, and learn about the limitations of a system such as the smt6.
how does a microtech unit vary from something like the SMT6?
I found this page on microtech products, was hoping for a little more!
http://www.horsepowerinabox.com/HPIABV8 ... ry29_1.htm

at the moment i'm trying to understand why i shouldn't use the SMT6. i'd be able to use a MAP sensor with it (taking on board suggestions about removing MAF/AFM restrictions) and alter my fuelling and timing characteristics, which i would have thought would be sufficient for my needs. I'm wary though especially as people who know way way more than me say to go with a standalone setup! anyone tell me why the smt6 is a bad idea?

ant, what cars have edis4 coilpacks? I take it these are quite common? 4 = no of cylinders, EDIS = ?

cheers for the info on lambda probe ant. i spose i could try out an e36 motronic 1.7 318is ecu in there. i could add knock sensors then too. i've checked the pin assignments and they appear to be the same. i also don't know whether if i go for piggyback i'm better off with or without a lambda probe. on the one hand it makes the system more adaptive which could be a pain for the piggyback, on the other had it should ensure part throttle fuelling is about right, no?

cheers for all the help and info fellas!

also rather than starting another thread, do any of you know the flowrates of various bmw injectors? i don't know whether the m42 ones will be maxed out with my setup, i'm guessing they probably will.
also cars with MAP sensors, which cars should i look at to nick a MAP sensor?

[chip-3door]

Dont use MAP either!


Just TPS and RPM!

[Ant]

injector info, its a full list for everything , useful !

http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm

as for mapping, yep can do, interested to hear Chips recommendation as I've yet to find a dyno thats familiar with MS

[chip-3door]

Its a rolling road he uses not a dyno, but i personally dont see a problem with that TBH, still does fundamentally the same job.

I will dig out some contact details

[tim_s]

damn, i still have learning to do! throttle position vs rpm is alpha-n yeah? so if a car facing up a hill at the same throttle position and rpm as if it were facing down the hill, it would require the same fuelling?weird. i had this notion of 'load' in my head but i guess its related to throttle position. i need to think this through.

that's good news ant, would be happy for you to map mine if i went down that route. so how much is a MS box, all software, coms etc all built up, tested and ready to go?

[tim_s]

cheers for injector link ant

[Ant]

Sweet

Oh, and on the piggyback question, most are +/-50% trim from stock, almost the same amount of wiring and you've got 100%control at your fingertips, I know which I prefer dude.

not saying its easy, its not but with a little effort you can get your M42 singing a new tune with any of the standalones on the market

for ease, nothing comes close to the Emerald, it comes supplied with a suitable basemap so should run OK out of the box, just not full beans until completely mapped !

the EDIS is Electronic Distrubutorless Ignition System BTW, borrow from a ford in the scrappy, just get the plug for the module.

that said I'm sure the Emerald can accept the cam signal and allow you to retain your existing coilpacks

[chip-3door]

damn, i still have learning to do! throttle position vs rpm is alpha-n yeah? so if a car facing up a hill at the same throttle position and rpm as if it were facing down the hill, it would require the same fuelling, right? i had this notion of 'load' in my head but i guess its related to throttle position. i need to think this through.

that's good news ant, would be happy for you to map mine if i went down that route. so how much is a MS box, all software, coms etc all built up, tested and ready to go?

If you were accelerating at the same rate you would have a different amount of throttle, if you were at the same throttle position then you would be accelerating at a differnt rate, same for in different gears on the flat too.

Ideally an ECU should take into account the rate at which you are accelerating and enrich the mix accordinly, "transient fuelling" is what most home mappers fail to get quite right and results in the slightly less "polished" feel to drive the car.
I think if you want it to drive like factory you probably need a pro to sort your transient fuelling, i am happy to map my own cars for performance use but if it was for handing to someone else to drive around in as a daily driver i dont think i currently have the skills to do so.

Things like whacking the throttle open from close also require different fuelling to winding it on slowly, even though you are at the same point in the map tables.

[chip-3door]

Sweet

Oh, and on the piggyback question, most are +/-50% trim from stock, almost the same amount of wiring and you've got 100%control at your fingertips, I know which I prefer dude.

not saying its easy, its not but with a little effort you can get your M42 singing a new tune with any of the standalones on the market

for ease, nothing comes close to the Emerald, it comes supplied with a suitable basemap so should run OK out of the box, just not full beans until completely mapped !

the EDIS is Electronic Distrubutorless Ignition System BTW, borrow from a ford in the scrappy, just get the plug for the module.

that said I'm sure the Emerald can accept the cam signal and allow you to retain your existing coilpacks

Rechipping the standard ECU or fitting a piggy back doenst require much knowledge of transients, its FAR easier than getting factory smooth results from most aftermarket systems!

[Ant]

Rechipping the standard ECU or fitting a piggy back doenst require much knowledge of transients, its FAR easier than getting factory smooth results from most aftermarket systems!

totally dude ! nothing worse than driving a bucking bronco !!

been there, I ended up turniong all ac/decel en/unrich out, tuning the AFRS manually then adding the enrichment trims, then more logging and tweaking and so on .........

still not 100%, but my Mrs can finally drive the car without calling it a POS every 2 minutes, so progress has been made

I considered the piggy units before I started my MS mission, in the end I went fully coz I like a hard life/challenge:lol:

[chip-3door]

Rechipping the standard ECU or fitting a piggy back doenst require much knowledge of transients, its FAR easier than getting factory smooth results from most aftermarket systems!

totally dude ! nothing worse than driving a bucking bronco !!

been there, I ended up turniong all ac/decel en/unrich out, tuning the AFRS manually then adding the enrichment trims, then more logging and tweaking and so on .........

still not 100%, but my Mrs can finally drive the car without calling it a POS every 2 minutes, so progress has been made

I considered the piggy units before I started my MS mission, in the end I went fully coz I like a hard life/challenge:lol:

Indeed, i have stand alone for most of my cars for the same reason mate, and worse still they are all different makes

wolf for the integra, DTA for the mini, SECS for the cossie

[tim_s]

lol, that's been my worry all along! been there with bucking bronco style tuned cars!
i do feel its making a bit more sense guys, thank god! cheers. still have f all idea what would be best for me though.
just to be even more of a pita though, whats the motive for ditching the MAP sensor? ease of tuning?
ant, can you get factory smooth results from megasquirt?
i guess when it comes down to it i'd go for the smoothest option over the one that will give best performance. this car is my daily, my toy car (sold now) would have mightily pissed me off as a daily. i'm guessing 2.1 and throttle bodies will be a pretty healthy upgrade from factory without having to run aggresive advance/fuelling too. i'm also aware that its unlikely to be as smooth as factory. in some respects i kinda regret toying with my daily for this reason. it just kind of happened - felt it was a good time to do a bottom end rebuild, got talking and decided to have a crack at fitting some throttle bodies... oops.
i think ant's got a good one there, way i'd judge it is i'd like it to be well-behaved enough for the missus to drive. mb i am better off going for a piggyback?
so pros and cons of smt6 compared to MS:
pro:
-cheaper
-easier to tune
-easier to wire
-smoother?
con:
-less control over everything
-less power (map sensor???)

had a quick peak on ebay and was surprised how cheap MS kits are, a piggyback wouldn't be any cheaper really unless i found one 2nd hand.
so other than a coilpack from a ford, and the MS itself, and lots of time, and ant to map it, what other costs would i have? wideband lambda probe???

[chip-3door]

lol, that's been my worry all along! been there with bucking bronco style tuned cars!
i do feel its making a bit more sense guys, thank god! cheers. still have f all idea what would be best for me though.
just to be even more of a pita though, whats the motive for ditching the MAP sensor? ease of tuning?

There is just no need for a MAP input, when you are dealing with no turbo, MAP is a given at any rpm/TPS position anyway pretty much and TPs is a lot faster than MAP to react to change

ant, can you get factory smooth results from megasquirt?

Not sure if that means "can ant" or "is it possible"?

i guess when it comes down to it i'd go for the smoothest option over the one that will give best performance. this car is my daily, my toy car (sold now) would have mightily pissed me off as a daily. i'm guessing 2.1 and throttle bodies will be a pretty healthy upgrade from factory without having to run aggresive advance/fuelling too.

Smoothest would be leave it standard, lol
ANY ecu with a decent set of features can match factory smooth if you put enough time into mapping it.

i'm also aware that its unlikely to be as smooth as factory. in some respects i kinda regret toying with my daily for this reason. it just kind of happened - felt it was a good time to do a bottom end rebuild, got talking and decided to have a crack at fitting some throttle bodies... oops.

Easy mistake to make

i think ant's got a good one there, way i'd judge it is i'd like it to be well-behaved enough for the missus to drive. mb i am better off going for a piggyback?
so pros and cons of smt6 compared to MS:
pro:
-cheaper
-easier to tune
-easier to wire
-smoother?
con:
-less control over everything
-less power (map sensor???)

had a quick peak on ebay and was surprised how cheap MS kits are, a piggyback wouldn't be any cheaper really unless i found one 2nd hand.
so other than a coilpack from a ford, and the MS itself, and lots of time, and ant to map it, what other costs would i have? wideband lambda probe???

You wont need a wideband probe, the person mapping it will have that, once setup you dont need to worry about wideband results on N/A really IMHO, ive never felt the need to monitor wideband on a daily basis in any NA car, but i do on FI ones.

[RowdyBurns]

I agree with Chip. One of the hardest parts of mapping any car is the transient fuelling (along with cold starts, cos that can take forever).
Having mapped some cars (and a bike) with MS that have had huge VE changes across their rev range i have found that with the accel fueling features of MS it is a strugle to get the transient fueling totally correct across the range and some comprimises have to be made. This is only on larger output turbo engines and you prob wouldn't know to drive them, just that i can see the fuelling isn't quite as spot on as i would like.

[StreetSpec]

hey Tim, more microtech info here http://www.microtechefi.com/, but if it isnt popular in the UK, probly best to stick with something more common.

[Andy335Touring]

Tim, try reading this page on EMS, some good info

http://emeraldm3d.com/ems.htm

[tim_s]

cheers guys, will follow all this up, i'm sure i'll have some qs!

[tim_s]

hi again!
done some more thinking about this, will need to start buying and fitting stuff soon probably as the engine and tbs are nearly ready, but am pretty snowed under with other things at the mo.

been looking a bit more at megasquirt in light of you guys, and am beginning to answer some of my own questions and re-align my views etc.
i'm beginning to think as follows - i may be wrong though:
-megasquirt is easily as cheap if not cheaper than a piggyback (i'd be looking at spending about Ԛ£500 for a piggyback with a wideband lambda)
-mapping piggybacks is a pita, so its not nec a much simpler solution as i previously thought
-its dumb to spend more money on a piggyback than on a standalone setup.

so i'm looking into MS a bit more now. Have loads of qs about it all though:
-reliability and adaptability of the map - i'm still hung up on mafs etc. if i get MS set up on my car for alpha-n, will it not be less accurate or 'get it wrong' more often than if it had a load sensor? is not a MAF or something a good idea for a daily driver? I'm considering all of this as I want to pretty much get the car mapped then left to its own devices.
-what version of MS do i need? MS1 or MS2? which pcb?
was looking at diyautotune.com, its very cheap! is this the best place to buy?

Other ideas I've been floating about are building the MS onto a motronic connector so as not to cut into my loom significantly and to save wiring all through the engine bay. how realistic an aim is that? i have no idea about how much re-wiring i'd need to do and whether my stock sensors are ok etc. other idea is mb even build it into a motronic box?

And controlling timing and the EDIS stuff, would i be buying a new coilpack (to replace the bmw one) or a device to go in between MS and the coilpack?

do i need a wideband lambda probe? i remember chip saying no, but can the fuelling map be trimmed based on a wideband lambda's output, making it somewhat self-adjusting? wouldn't this be a good idea for a daily driver? do i need a wideband controller to work with MS or can it read directly from the sensor? so an LC1 kit would be appropriate?

so the fuelling would work by just rpm vs throttle position, trimmed by engine temp and lambda? anything else? IAT? presumably the more parameters like this, the better for reliability and adaptability?

i also have no idea how the timing is calculated either, is it just off the rpm calculated from the crank sensor wheel? trimmed by same parameters as fuelling?

i know i have a lot of learning to do, all help appreciated! cheers for any help!

[Dan318-is]

Tim you do start some bloody interesting threads mate!

[Ant]

quicky answer for some of Tims Qs......

Yes you can re-use a lot of the stock loom, and there are some non-bmw installs using MS that have been wired into the redundant ECU case, keeps it stock

the main issue with the above is not having enough wires in the orig, and having to run extra, I split 50/50 on what I need to be "new" and what I can re-use from existing, otherwise you end up duplicating a lot of wiring thats not necessary, upside of 2 complete looms is easily swopping back and forth

With regards to the EDIs, its an option but you can use the VR crank sensor and the HE cam position to trigger the stcok packs you have, and extra coil driver will be required though

which unit to buy.... V3.0 is better specced and the current "state of the art" nothing wrong with V2.2 ( i run one) but given the choice V3 suits your needs better

another alternative is a VEMS ecu, uses MS front end and software but is higher hardware spec with a lot of options you'll not need

you dont need a WB02, unless you're DIYing the tune, however its worth paying out for and speccing with the install as you'll use it many many times, much cheaper than a dyno too M8 so almost pays for itself after 3 hours tuning.

Alpha N or speed density ( MAF?AFM?MAP) is a choice you'll have to make, I used a MAP and TPS blended setup for mine so the ECU can "see" when boost is available.

[tim_s]

ant, some more qs for you if thats ok. as far as v2.2 and v3 pcbs are concerned, are there any differences i should be particularly concerned about? most uk ones on the bay seem to be v2.2, and its cheaper. seeing as i want to keep things simple, v2.2 seems ok to me.
as far as code is concerned, i'd be using msns-e, not MSII? will i need extra code to control the 60-2 crank wheel? i take it i keep my factory tps, engine temp, s50 inlet temp (will i need conversion code stuff for these two?), what about fuel pump, crank/cam pickup etc.?
will i need extra code for MAF? MS can do a 3d fuel map using MAF, TPS and RPM right?
not sure how this works, the 'fuel map' is basically a 12x12 or 8x8 2d VE
table? not sure how TPS fits into this (VE table has Kpa from MAP or MAF vs RPM by crank signal)?

what exactly do i need to control my coilpack using the cam sensor?
what extra wiring will i need to do into the engine bay? MS can switch my fuel pump on ok etc?
struggling to work out what extra wiring i'll need into the engine bay at the mo, all of the above is on my motronic, no?
sorry for all the questions, just you reply so much better than trawling through msefi.com!

cheers
tim

[tim_s]

just seen that TPS is just used as a sensor to add accel/decel enrichment and to work out when at idle/full throttle. not in basic fuel equations i take it then.

[tim_s]

fao ant in particular! sorry for all the qs.
been considering my options and whether/what I should buy. I still don't know whether I'll control sparks, or if i'll need to, for a start.... i can see me wanting to add some advance, but i can always play with the motronic eprom to get that.

I've decided that I if i do this, I'll probably try with a MAF, for now at least anyway. This is due to my reading on MSefi and talk alpha-n being very precise and requiring more retuning etc. i'm hoping the MAF should provide some degree of adaptability in that respect.
I've been considering the following:
1)
ebay item 8037546461
so thats a MS1 PCB3 with an extra coil driver - this should be able to do everything I want, right? I can control my coil using wasted spark and the HE cam sensor, and with the additional coil driver everything will be grand?
btw the m42 HE cam sensor is a single trigger per 720 degrees?
2)
Same as above but in kit form from diyautotune.com. as far as i can see this will cost about $200 ($189 for PCB3, $10+ for VB921 coil driver and odds and sods) before shipping +taxes.
3)
PCB v2.2 kit from diyautotune.com - $130! main reason for considering this is that even after adding shipping and taxes, it'd still be well cheap! could buy it as a bit of a toy and right off the cost in the grand scheme of the engine conversion.... worries are that (if i've got the right end of the stick) i'd need a VR conditioning circuit to this to use with my VR crank sensor? what have you done with this on yours ant? and can v2.2 control my coil using the HE cam sensor?

i'm competent enough at soldering, but really as its a daily am swaying towards buying one built. I just like the idea of $130, then thought well its only $190 for the v3 pcb etc..
what do you reckon? am prepared to re-consider all of this obviously, they're just ideas for the mo.
Cheers
tim

[Ant]

Tim, gimme a call mate, 07787 114963 to many Q's there, typing is not my forte

[tim_s]

cheers fella, that'd be great. will try to give you a buzz tmrw if thats ok, bit snowed under today. what time suits?