Suspension or Steering prob... ideas needed...

Post Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:41 pm

Got an odd issue with the suspension/steering on my touring...

Since a local garage has changed the steering arms, the steering wheel now sits left of centre, (maybe at 10 past 9!), but the car pulls right when driving.
It pulls the same weather accelerating/rolling/braking...
Also seem to wander quite a bit, the front feels a bit 'twitchy' and is unsettled easily!!!

So what could cause this???

(It gets long now!!!)
Someone else at the garage, (I know them all quite well!!), said the guy who did the arms is known for being a bit anal about it and measuring parts before swapping and double checking stuff, so they're pretty confident they're the correct parts.
I do need to check if he changed the whole tie rod, (as I think), or just the track rod ends.

They have redone the tracking three times now - they did have a calibration issue on their kit the first time around, but are now happy it's spot on.
The front ARB drop links have also now been replaced, (the lemforder mondeo part!), as the right hand one was tired. I also had them change the front bearings/hubs at the same time, as they were a bit noisy and although there was no obvious play in them, they did find some problems with the left one!!! All now sorted, they can't seem to find anything wrong, but it still pulls right, with the steering wheel cocked to the left!!!

When they first did the arms, my winter tyres on 14" rims were on there - I changed those for the 16" Schnitzer rims after a day or two - same problem with both sets of wheels/tyres and I've never had a problem with either set in the past. Pressures are good, Goodyear Eagle F1's on the front look ok!!!

I've got a very small pas leak from the pump and have always had the odd occasion where it takes a few seconds for the pump to start working properly - it is further down my list to replace the pump, but I really can't see that causing this issue???

Some of you may know, the car is on a H&R coilover kit and H&R ARB's, some polybushes, etc - all been in place happily for a good few years now and not caused any of these issues before.

So............. what's next???
Have I hit a pothole and bent/broken something not obvious???
Could the new tie rods be the wrong part, or even bent/damaged on arrival???
Could a knackered steering rack cause this???

All ideas welcome 'cos we're getting a bit stuck with this now!!!

Post Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:46 pm

I had a similar problem on a Peugeot 306 Cabriolet. I changed a worn inner drumstick on the passenger side of the steering rack, and a track rod end on the other side, and also swapped the passenger side wheels from front to back as I noticed that one had a larger rolling radius (profile) than the other.

Swapping the wheels made the biggest difference, and the car drove straight as a die after that.

One other thing, after replacing suspension parts, you're supposed to lower the car to the ground (or place it down on the ramp) before tightening things up; if the parts have been tightened while the car is jacked up, this may cause such issues.

Post Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:53 pm

The obvious thing is tracking,there should be a touch of toe in.

Steery wheel not centred correctly indicates to me that the tracking has been adjusted from just one side,rather than 'sharing' the adjustment between both sides.
To check this,lift the front of the car on a pair of DIY drive on ramps and measure the amount of thread showing on each track rod end at the adjustment point,they should be just about equal.

Post Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:17 pm

'drumstick'??? I use those when I play the drums!!! What part is that???

Cant swap wheels front to back, due to bigger tyres on the rear, but as stated, I did have the 14" winter wheels on and have since swapped them for the 16" Schnitzers. Didn't have this problem before with either set of wheels!!!
Don't think I've got two of the 15" BBS with road legal tyres on, but I will be checking next week!!!
I would hope they lowered the car before tightening - they are usually pretty good - there's very few places I let mess around with my car!!!

I can't imagine they'd have just adjusted one side - especially after they've had it back three times - but you never know I suppose!!!

I could do with getting it in the air and having a look myself... big problem is time to do this!!! I'll have to put it on stands if I get a chance at some point!!!

The only other thing I can see, is the rubber gator/cover on each end of the steering rack... on full lock left the left hand gator concertinas nicely and the right one stretches out fine, but on full right lock, the right one doesn't look like it concertinas very well - bit crumpled, but surely that's just cosmetic???

Post Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:27 pm

The steering rack has a track rod end and a tie-rod end:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-3-SERIES- ... 336e040027

The 'drumstick' is the inner part (top part in the E-bay pic) - they unscrew from the rack itself.

Post Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:29 pm

Aaah, ok.

I'm pretty sure they did replace the full track rod and tie rod, but I need to double check with them!!!

Post Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:37 pm

Check the amount the steering wheel turns to full lock, each way, from a) the steering wheel straight ahead position, and b) the position where it drives straight.
Also, don't assume that the problem is wholly with the front end of the car. The rear tracking may not be accurate either.

Post Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:16 am

Checked with the garage this morning and they did replace the full 'inner & outer' tie/track rod on both sides.
It's pencilled back in with them for Tue 6th, following the bank holiday, for further investigation!!!

Steering wheel position when driving, (no input from me, pulls right, obviously sits a little more left when i hold the car straight!!!)

Full left lock is slightly less than two turns and the wheel sits straight when held there...

Full right lock is two turns, and wheel sits slightly left...

Think I got those the right way round - will double check again later!!!

I did read that pulling can be caused by rear alignment, however, nothing has been touched at the rear and I can't see that causing the steering wheel to be off centre???

Post Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:39 pm

The wheel is off centre because they've not adjusted he rack properly.

If your wheel was central, and the rear tracking went out, then the car will try and align itself as you drive, so the car will crab down the road, and the wheel will sit off centre.

As nothing at the rear has changed then it has to be that they've made all their adjustments on one side. Poor tracking won't make a car pull though. Even if you set one wheel straight and the other toe in, once you're rolling the toe will even itself out side to side, but the wheel will just sit 'wrong'

Are they ' just doing the tracking mate ' or is it being fully aligned with rear measurements and castor and camber as well as toe?

If all the arms and bushes are new, of the same type, and properly fitted I would start to question whether the rest of the car was completely straight.

Post Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:03 pm

When you say 'not adjusted the rack properly' - you mean the steering arms/tie rods they changed??? Or is there something on the actual steering rack they could/should adjust???

I thought poor tracking could def make a car pull to one side - or is having tracking adjusted to cure that just masking some other wear???

I believe they have only done tracking/alignment on the front wheels so far.

I have no reason to believe the rest of the car is 'not straight' - I've had this touring a very long time and almost every part has been replaced with new at some point!!!
It has always driven/tracked/handled extremely well - until they fitted these new steering arms!!!

Post Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:19 pm

I gather that an E30 has four turns lock-to-lock, so surely it should have exactly 2 turns for full lock on each side...

If not, either the new track rod ends haven't been adjusted evenly (count the number of threads visible on each side) or they are of unequal length - possibly mismatched makes used, or a manufacturing defect?

Post Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:43 pm

Yeah - never thought to check that until Brian suggested it!!!

Will have to try and get underneath at some point!!!
I have wondered if they def fitted the correct parts, given the amount of wrong parts I've been delivered in the past from my reg/chassis no.

Post Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:21 pm

I don't suppose they gave you the original parts back? It's always worth keeping them, just in case or for reference/comparison purposes.

A recent example: when my brother's G/F had a new alternator surpentine belt fitted by a local garage, I told her to keep the discarded old belt 'just in case'. Sure enough, a few days later, the new belt fell off as it was wider than the old one.

She then got the garage to refit the original!

Post Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:30 pm

No - they normally do and I always tell them not to bother

He said he was going to look through their scrap bin for them so he could compare them, but I can only assume he hasn't managed to find them!!!

Post Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:05 pm

From the threads I can see with the steering at full lock, (I haven't had a chance to get under the car), the tie rods look to be pretty evenly adjusted.

Post Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:43 pm

Perhaps track rod ends from differing manufacturers have been used on each side, which may account for a difference in length...

Post Fri May 02, 2014 2:08 am

Prob can't tell much from these pics... look to be an even number of threads on each side, (counted 10 I think)...

Passenger side...

Drivers side...

Post Fri May 02, 2014 9:04 am

Doesn't look like an awful lot of thread inside those inner track rods tbh.

Have you had an e36 or e46 rack conversion done in the past? If so what tie rods were used for that conversion? Can't remember which way round it is - i.e. what's long/shorter than what but iirc E30, E36 and E46 tie rods are all different lengths.

Post Fri May 02, 2014 9:38 am

is the drivers side arb sitting at a higher angle? or is it just the angle of the picture?

Post Fri May 02, 2014 10:48 am

Those inner track rods don't look as though they are new.

If they lied about replacing them what else have they lied about?

Ben

Post Fri May 02, 2014 11:09 am

Post Fri May 02, 2014 12:02 pm

I did think they didn't look that new, but this has been going on 2/3 months now and I do cover a fair bit of mileage at the mo, through a lot of re-surfacing works etc, but I will be questioning it and suggesting they try 'another' complete new set.

Pics are poor, to be fair!!!

No rack conversion - doesn't go with my six branch apparently

Post Fri May 02, 2014 12:18 pm

Any idea how much thread should usually be on show???

Post Fri May 02, 2014 12:19 pm

Indeed, it would only take 2-3 months of such driving in the damp weather at this time of year to make components look pretty grubby and rusty.

Post Fri May 02, 2014 12:25 pm

Have you got the time/patience to do the steering alignment string test?

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/inde ... ined#Toe_2

Post Fri May 02, 2014 12:47 pm

Time is the enemy for me, but if I get a chance, I'll give it a go!!!

Tempted to drop it in another place that does the 4 wheel laser alignment and see what they say, but doubt it'll happen before this goes back to the local garage on tues, then I'm away the following week!!!

If anyone fancies putting there steering at full lock and taking a pic for me, a comparison might be useful???

Post Fri May 02, 2014 1:31 pm

miniblob wrote:Prob can't tell much from these pics... look to be an even number of threads on each side, (counted 10 I think)...

Passenger side...

Drivers side...

The top picture shows the paint on the inner section seems to be bubbling/lifting through rust, this doesnt happen in a couple of months, it would take at least one winter of driving through salt on the road and probably another 12 months minimum to get that bad.
The outers appear to be unpainted, this screams poor quality parts. The pinch bolts are also rusty and look like they have had some satin black/recon paint, again quality parts come with plated fasteners.

For a start I would centre your steering wheel on the column/rack, if you remove it at the driving straight position (first of your steering wheel pics) and refit it straight it should even out the left - right amount of turns judging by your pics
Most garages just clamp the steering wheel straight and dont check it is centred to the rack, this will leave your tracked position to either side of the racks central position which can make the car pull to one side

Post Fri May 02, 2014 2:07 pm

The amount of thread looks to be about right:

http://www.e30tech.com/articles/steering/tierods/

Post Fri May 02, 2014 3:14 pm

Dan - the steering wheel has not been off though and the last thing I want is to centre the wheel, masking part of the problem. The wheel was correctly positioned when it has fitted and is only off to the left now they have 'fitted' these possibly dodgy steering arms!!!

Post Fri May 02, 2014 5:27 pm

If you look at your full lock right and full lock left pics you will see the wheel is not centred

Post Sat May 03, 2014 11:41 am

Check the steering column where it enters the rack, just below the universal joint.
On the splined input shaft you should have a plastic collar, on the edge of this there is a small indication arrow poking out that should line up with centre line of the steering rack.

Use that to set the rack to its centre position.
This only works as long as no one has removed the cap and rotated it in the past, if you want to be double sure then you have to remove the gaiters from the rack and use a steel ruler to measure the rack to housing distance on both sides.

Post Sat May 03, 2014 12:05 pm

Dan - like I said though, the wheel was centred perfectly until the steering arms were 'replaced', so I'm very reluctant to do that at the mo.
Something must have broken/bent/slipped to put the wheel off centre.
If they get it driving straight and it turns out the wheel does need to be re-centred, thats an easy job anyway!!!

Martinaston - is that something I can see from above, or should I add it to their list when it goes back on the ramps???

Post Sat May 03, 2014 2:09 pm

Judging by your pictures of the steering wheel at full lock right and full lock left, the rack is off centre, that is what im getting at.
No matter how many different alignment places you take it to they will always centre the steering wheel and clamp it before setting the wheels, this will keep the rack off centre

Maybe the old track rods were bent, who knows? But trying to solve alignment issues with the rack off centre is never going to help

Post Sat May 03, 2014 2:19 pm

Just because it drove straight before the work was done, doesn't mean it was set up correctly. Any e30 will have received attention from many 'mechanics' of varying ability by this stage of their lives, so the only way to get things performing as they should is to go back to first principals, as DanThe says, and work your way through things, checking and adjusting, one by one, until it's all in spec. Then you will know what an E30 can handle and drive like.
Don't forget to check the rear as well.

Post Sat May 03, 2014 3:53 pm

Fair enough!!!

Is it possible the rack could become off center through wear? Or an impact with a large pothole or something???
I suppose the slight play that was there originally could've come from the rack, not the steering arms???

I suppose I don't like to think that something wasn't set up correctly before, considering the amount of time and money that has gone into suspension, bushes, etc!!!
It has and did handle extremely well though, prior to this!!!