doh what could have happened here

[scoobydo]

Got my injectors back from being serviced. Had new filter baskets as apparently old ones were wrong type, new pintel caps (these are a different colour)and o rings. Also started fitting my AFR gauge so have had the glove compartment out and run the cable for the AFR and connected the wiring to the clock wires as that is where it is going to be mounted. have poked wiring under fuse box into the cabin.have put all back together including putting the injectors back on. Car will start and for about a tenth a second seems ok but then it is running very rough almost like each cylinder is giving about a tenth of what it should. All injectors are spraying as have took the rail off, labels are still on wires so I know they are in the correct place. If I pull the wiring off the injector then it doesn't really make much difference whilst running.If I pull the wire of the coolant sensor the car dies within 5 seconds so assume that is working. Car is a 333i running zytek management so no fancy sensors other than air temp and coolant temp and map sensor.

It is very strange as I say when you first start for a very brief moment it sounds smooth followed by something that wouldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding wont even rev.

[scoobydo]

Had a look around and cannot see anything out of place. Wiring behind glove compartment seems ok. When I first started on getting the wiring from the afr gauge to the wideband I was poking through the top grommet by the fuse box, I pushed a metal draw tape through for about half a metre in the hope of it coming out in the right place. This grommet was no good as never seemed to get to anything in the cabin although could here it seemed to be getting caught behind the air trunking. Changed to a different grommet lower down this time poking from inside the car and it was easy. Wonder if something has been dislodged somewhere? Other than that could it be the injectors, not sure if the different pintel caps and filter baskets could make it run this bad? It is almost like it is only running on 2 cylinders, but without being able to identify what cylinders are down. Just been out and started it up again and it fires up quickly to 900rpm but within a few tenths of a second it is down to 500rpm. This is a headscratcher wish I had only done one job at a time as now I don't know has caused it.

[bigbird76]

Hello

Get a friend to start the car and keep the revs up so that the engine runs.

Get something like a large screwdriver or metal bar and give the sides of your injectors a few taps not hammering but just tap them. Hopefully you have a stuck injector or two which is common with refurbished/cleaned injectors.

I had this same problem when I had my m3 injectors serviced, it ran like a pig running like you say on 2 cylinders and a few taps soon bought the engine back to life.

Leigh

[scoobydo]

have left a message with the guy who done the injectors sure he will come back to me. Pulled one plug and it did look wet from fuel. Couldn't do others as it means removing turbo shroud and time was getting on. Guy who done the injectors did say that the previous refurb had installed wrong filter baskets about the third of the size they should have been and also the pintel caps were the wrong ones. Before I had them done the only issue was a very slight stutter at idle, now I cannot even drive it. Will try the tap method as well.

Only other thing I was thinking of was the crank sensor but think it would be a pig to start but it starts fine. Other than that I am really struggling with this thinking disturbed wire somewhere but guess I can prove this by going through all the sensors and reading at the ECU the return voltages.

[bigbird76]

Did the car run ok before he refurbished your injectors? If your engine is modded he has put your injectors back to standard spec and your running a turbo?

Try tapping injectors 1st.

[scoobydo]

Car was OK (very very slight occasional miss but had been sitting for 3 months witout any fuel pressure in rail and the injectors that are in there are prone to getting stuck so thought a good idea to have them checked. Yes to turbo, car is modded 450bhp M30 engine. When I took the fuel rail off for rough and ready test of injectors they were all squirting but maybe they are not shutting as quick as they should now? Below is a video of how it idles before, it is nowwhere near this couldnt even drive it off the drive now. It is almost like if you get your firing order wrong but without anyback firing. Wouldnt even be able to drive it, it is that bad.


http://s884.photobucket.com/user/btlcam ... 3.mp4.html

[scoobydo]

Had a tap around the injectors no difference. Turned idle control valve up to enable more air and got it ticking over a bit better as I increased the rpm the ecu would go to a different site. Now I can pull injector plugs or ignition leads and get a drop now in engine speed apart from cylinder 4 and 5. It then started raining and I had to stop.

[gooseygander110]

have you checked you've got the wiring to the right order of sequence to injectors ?

[scoobydo]

yes injectors are in the right order, made a bit of progress last night. Adjusted ICV which is a bypass arrangement on the engine side of the butterfly, got the idle up to 900rpm and can now pull plugs and get a good drop in rpm apart from on 4&5 cylinders. firing groups are I believe 1,3,5 and 2,4,6 need to look up firing order to try and make some sense of what is going on. Spark is present on these cylinders, put car in garage last night with the 3 plug leads off and cranked it without the fuel pump fuse in and the car started on 3 cylinders with no fuel pressure only residual. Have spoken to the guy who done the injectors and he has told me the filter baskets he took out were universal ones 10mm long where as the correct ones for the injectors are longer so he put the correct ones in. He also changed the pintel caps as the ones on there were not the correct fitment.

[broadie]

I may have got this wrong.
But it sounds like you had some custom injectors that needed a clean other than that they worked fine on your ecu/map/engine
I'd send them back for a defurb Did you explain what they came off of before the refurb.

I think it'll be rich at top end.
Best get it on the rollers to be safe.

[scoobydo]

Injectors are not standard for the car, sent an email in front of them getting the injectors explaining everything but not sure if this got read. Defurb I have asked for old pintel caps but they have been thrown. No chance of rollers my lawn mower is smoother and has more power than this at the moment. Prior to injectors being sent off 5 seconds 0 to 60 without launching it an knowhere near full throttle (traction issues). Now it would struggle to get to 20mph if I could get it off the drive.

[broadie]

Do they rember what pintel caps came off or track down the guy that originally made the injectors.
Can you wind up the fpr?

Or its find a new base map and start over.

[scoobydo]

There is something more drastic going on here I think. I get a feeling that whatever has happened has caused the atomisation to be affected or direction of the spray and it is causing soaking of the inlet valve. These are very simple injectors not multi spray. Have had a read around and many say that the pintels on these only protect the pintel itself rather than effect spray pattern but something is up. I remember the pintel caps being a deeper recess than the ones that are on there now. Think going to have to do a compression test on the two cylinders that are now not doing anything maybe got bore wash? Perhaps give the dipstick a sniff see if it smells of petrol?

[broadie]

Is it smelling rich?

Any chance you got some crap or peice of o ring in the fuel rail and its stuck in the fpr ,or knocked the tps or its plug.

[scoobydo]

Yes it is stinking rich, this I believe is the issue , going to take it apart later today weather permitting and have a look what is going on. Will get some reading from the TPS at the ECU to check this is feeding back the correct voltage. Strange thing is with my latest MAP on it the AFR is showing 22 which I think is impossible and flicking back to 14 this is impossible as no CAT and 2 cylinders down unless it is that rich that the lamda is getting choked? At the moment lamda is stuck up the exhaust rather than in the bung on the down pipe.

[NoTurbo]

What ECU are you running?

Do you have a WB02 on the car?

It sounds like your map was written for injectors with a lower flow rate. As you have had them cleaned flow has increased and is causing the over fuelling.

Definitely needs a remap..

[scoobydo]

Zytek managment, doesn't operate closed loop, wideband installed for monitoring only. Injectors had previously been cleaned only 6 months ago and car only done 200 miles since last clean so not much should have changed surely? Altough different company done it the 2nd time round. Unfortunately havent got the breakout box for live monitoring of the ECU so can only alter fuel via pulling chip uploading modified map via EEprom flash. 2nd guy who done the injectors does not provide static flow rates and dynamic, he just checks across various duty cycles (claims this is more useful)and reports on % increase over what he tested them before cleaning they were only 3% improvement across the range and 1 didnt improve at all infact was 5% worse across all tests.

[NoTurbo]

In that case I would go back to basics. Check for spark on all cylinders again, check for fuel pressure, compression test all cylinders and make sure injectors are seated and sealed properly when you put them back in.

[scoobydo]

Think this isn't helping this looks too loose see attached link to video.

http://s884.photobucket.com/user/btlcam ... c.mp4.html

[scoobydo]

Here is the pintel caps that he has put on there they are flat at the top the ones that come off were a deep dish type.

[NoTurbo]

check the o-ring, oil and seat the injector. Finally spray some soapy water around the injector seat and if the revs drop is not sealed

[scoobydo]

whats your take on the pintel cap? In my mind I am thinking it is this that is the issue whereby when you read online people say the pintel cap only protects the tip? O rings in post apparently so hopefully can rule that out but would have thought if sucking in air then I owuldnt have to have been introducing more air to get it ticking over @ the normal 900rpm. Uderstand fully if it was closed loop lamda control as I would have been getting unmetered air in but it would have been in reverse.

[NoTurbo]

I don't think you should worry about the caps. The original seals and a bit of red grease are more important. Test those first.

[scoobydo]

New seals put on, and still car not running right. Have sprayed around the seals with brake cleaner and tick over doesn't alter. Got wideband on and it is running ultra lean 22.4 at idle (this is impossible), and under decelleration. Under part throttle getting aroung 15AFR still feeling miles lean and under mild boost 12.4. Also getting an occasional backfire when taking it easy. It is miles to lean, remember to get it to run I had to wind out the ICV which is a bypass arrangement bypassing the throttle body. Have had the injectors out and they are all squirting when cranking the engine.

However every now and again it does feel better and wideband shows 14.6.

Getting nowhere fast with this.

[NoTurbo]

I think you need to get the map checked then. Where is your local RR?

[scoobydo]

track and road Rainham, thing is the map was fine before having the injectors cleaned, I can alter the map but it is a pain without the breakout box which I cannot get hold of. Last night started checking wiring to ecu wonder if a ground has gone HR or something. Only other thing that I have done was try to get the sparkplug out the boss for the wideband which I couldn't get to move maybe I have an air leak in the exhaust but don't see that making so much difference. Going to also try and get the ICV bypass back to where it was and go from there.

Cheers

[craigieeb]

when you first had the mapping done..

were the injectors "factory fresh" ?

i'm just thinking, if they were possibly on their last legs at the point of the mapping,
then you had them cleaned after the map had been created,

mebbies that could of caused some sort of over/under fueling issues?

[scoobydo]

Injectors had been cleaned 200 miles ago with no ill effects to the map (unless the guy who done them that time didnt do a goof job.Bit more progress but had a little moment with it. Have Identified that cylinders 5&6 are down, have spark and compression, was planning on moving injectors about and lost 2 pintel caps down the inlet manifold luckily could see them with a bore scope so managed to hoover them out

Report back later

[scoobydo]

moved injectors ie injectors 5&6 that were not working moved to 3&4 and the fault follows the injectors. Injectors are spraying at starting duty cycle but anything else they are either dead or not spraying correctly.

[NoTurbo]

Have you called the guy that cleaned them and told him?

He might have given you 2 duds by mistake.

[scoobydo]

On thinking about this, the first guy who done them may well have respected the age of the injectors and not cleaned them too aggressively? This time when they came back the whole of the injector was shining whereby the original guy just concentrated on the business end.

Car was fine, only had them done as a precaution and now I am off the road and potentially needing new injectors

The coils in these are made of very fine copper enameled wire perhaps the pulses have caused the insulation (enamel) to break down.

[craigieeb]

What size (in cc) are you using?

[scoobydo]

Low impedance Bosch 0280 150 035, 420 static 1008 dynamic.

cheers

[JF008]

Which company have you used, just out of curiosity? And a question for anyone to answer: I had a remap done with old maybe crappy injectors, if I send them for cleaning will it affect the air/fuel ratio to ill effect? I think not but what do I know...

Keep this updated scooby!

[scoobydo]

Anyone would be crazy mapping with injectors that are not in top shape. My ECU is not sequential firing of injectors just grouped, to that effect I believe it is definitely the injectors as I can move them around and the cylinder that I move the bad injector to goes down