Relay issue, calling Brianmoooore

[scoobydo]

My cold idle valve on my E30 333i that I think is a hybrid from an E28 is currently not getting 12V ignition feed. Have traced the feed back to a relay that is hidden under the dash where the ecu is located. There are 2 relays next to each other and have swapped relays and the suspected faulty relay clicks ok.

here is what I get from the 2 different relays working circuit first




Ign off pin30 12V / 12V
Ign on no relay in holder pin 86 12.38 / 0v
Ign on & relay in pin 86 12.38 / 12.4
Ign on & relay pin 85 0 / 12.06


The cold start valve wire that I am interested in goes to 87a ie the centre pin of the relay.

Note the car had a lot of work done in the 80's is OEM wiring but dont think it is a normal cold idle valve for an e30 so not sure what they have connected to under the dash

[scoobydo]

Here are the 2 relays might help confirming what they are normally used for in the OEM set up one on the left all brown wires is the "faulty one"



And also the valve just for info

[Brianmoooore]

Are these two guaranteed identical relays? Just because relays may look similar from the outside doesn't mean they are the same inside. There is often a circuit diagram, with pin connections, printed on the one side of the case, which shows what's inside.
I know nothing specifically about the circuitry used on your particular car, so my answers are in general terms only.
Pin 30 is usually the 'in' of the relay's switch contacts, and in car applications is often connected directly (apart from possibly a fuse) to the + terminal of the battery.
Pins 85 and 86 and the terminals of the relay's coil. If either one is at 12 volts and the other one at zero, the relay will be 'on'. If both pins are at zero volts, or both at 12 volts, then the relay will be 'off'.
The 87 terminal is usually connected to pin 30 when the relay is 'on'. On simple four pin relays, this is the terminal which feeds poer to whatever you are trying to control.
A simple five pin relay (one which doesn't have electronics inside it (other than possibly a simple snubber diode across the coil terminals)) will usually have the centre pin marked 87a or 87b, and the relay can either be a double pole one, where the 87x is connected to pin 30 along with 87 when the relay is 'on', or a change over relay, where the 87 is connected to pin 30 when the relay is 'on', but the 87x is connected to pin 30 when it is 'off'.
Are the results you give from two different cars? The only way they make any sense is if 85 and 86 are transposed between the two.

P.S. Above submitted before seeing your last post. All wires the same or random colours? This is going to be fun - just like working on French stuff!

[scoobydo]

Sorry been out, messing with something else. Having a nightmare with this as went to get some petrol and either the clutch master or slave cylinder decided to stop working. Will check what I wrote again and repost. Both relays are identical Bosch 0332014112. Perhaps this relay is responisble for something else and it has never been wired correctly. On the working circuit could I just move the wire from 85a on my bad circuit and scotch lock it onto the one that seems to behaving itself.

Ign off pin 30: 12 volts on both the working circuit and bad circuit
Ign on no relay in holder pin 86: 12.38 (working circuit) 0v on bad circuit
Ign on relay in holder pin 86: 12.38 on both circuits
Ign on relay in holder pin 85: 0 (working circuit) 12.06 (bad circuit)


Also had a look at my 2 two speed cooling fan wiring and had a bit of a mishap. Had my strip light leaning on the front of the car pulled the wiring off the 2 sensors on the bottom of the rad and found that two of the spade connectors were past there best, spades just pulled off. Tried shorting the wire together and the fan started up and chewed my strip light up. Now I cannot get the fans to come on at all Fan is ok, if I provide 12 volts to it directly then I get either full speed or low speed if through the resistor. Not sure what is going on here?

Sorry about all this

[Billwill]

Open up the bad relay to see what is going on...carefully pry off the metal cover.
you may find that some contacts are dirty and need a cleaning with very fine emery paper or some contacts may be welded together...also check that the relay coil is OK...you should see the armature moving the contacts open and closed.

My 318i has similar looking relays in that area (although a bit larger)....they are marked "Solid State" on the side and are used for actuating the aircon clutch and high/low speed cooling fan...this may be connected to your two speed fan not working now!

The reason they are marked as "Solid State" is that there are some transistors and other components inside there doing something to the operation of the relay coil...if you see these components then panic as the relay will need replacing.

I had a fault with one of my "Solid State" relays causing the aircon not to work too well...instead of buying a new OEM one I replaced the innards of the relay with a standard relay and it works fine. However what was very confusing and is something to bear in mind if your relays are this "Solid State" type is that the standard rule of pin 30 being the "common" contact while 87 was "normally open" and 87a was "normally closed" no longer applied....it was all mixed up so I had to wire my "standard" relay in very carefully.

Edit to add: I had another look at my "Solid State" relays....much larger than the ones you show so I think you have normal relays!

As far as the pins 30, 87, 87a etc. being marked differently on my relays...they are marked correctly but the pins are in different positions...so I could not plug a standard relay into the socket...it would physically fit but everything would be in the wrong position!

[scoobydo]

Ok I was kind of thinking that perhaps this 2nd relay is not controlled by the ign switch like the identical one in the same place. This one that is not working is only "live" when something else switches it on? Perhaps the wire to 87a that goes to this sensor only normally goes live when something else triggers it. So I am looking for a fault where it isn't actually wired correctly in the first place. The cold idle valve is listed on real oem for a 5 series so is bmw fitment.
Going to leave this valve as it is also closes by convected heat just that if it gets a 12v feed it closes up quicker.

However got to get the fans working but stumped on what has happened. Can't be that hard can it. Seem to be getting voltage on the wires by the high and low switches on the radiator I have 3 wires but 4 connectors as one is a common bridge green and black in colour, all I done was shorted the spades together and now nothing works.

[scoobydo]

update time

Rad fan back in the game. Crimped new spades on and jumpered between common and the switches and I get high and low fan speed. Low speed still on with just ignition switched on but have tested the low speed switch and I get 1.5m ohms rather than open circuit. Is this enough to trigger it?

The other issue with the cold idle control valve the relay does actually click when ign is switched on, then clicks again and voltage does get to the valve very briefly. Does this point to anything?

Will start a new thread for the clutch master/slave issue if needed

[Brianmoooore]

A relay will easily operate with a 1.5 ohms series resistance.
You say this is a COLD idle valve, so it seems reasonable to assume that it should only operate when the coolant is cold. Briefly switching on with ignition and then off suggests a problem with whatever decides what the minimum temperature the valve should operate is.
Pull out the relay, and connect a 12 volt bulb of about 5W across 85 and 86 of the socket. Confirm whether it behaves the same as the relay when the ignition is switched on.

[scoobydo]

I like that idea will have a go and report back. I had 1.5 meg ohms on the coolant fan switch rather than 1.5 ohms the high temp one is open circuit. this is factory fit so will order a new one. Had a quick search and can't find part number listed I did find an article a few months back where people had put one in that reacts earlier that had part numbers but can't find that article.

Will also treat it to some new hoses also struggling to find them. My upper hose is very close to the water pump pulley have seen mentioned that the 5 series has a bracket that holds this pipe will start a new thread for this.


Cheers for all help

[scoobydo]

sorry just had a rethink on the only operates when cold. It is a mechanical item that allows more air in during cold starts. As such it is open when engine is cold and the electrical part accelerates the closing of valve. So I don't believe that it has any other sensors down stream. However of course that's not to say that the original sensor if this one is not factory didn't work in the way you suggest so perhaps nothing is up it is just not wired correctly if this isn't factory.

It is definitely a bmw item as it can be found on real oem in the cooling section of the e28.

[Billwill]

Sorry been out, messing with something else. Having a nightmare with this as went to get some petrol and either the clutch master or slave cylinder decided to stop working. Will check what I wrote again and repost. Both relays are identical Bosch 0332014112. Perhaps this relay is responisble for something else and it has never been wired correctly. On the working circuit could I just move the wire from 85a on my bad circuit and scotch lock it onto the one that seems to behaving itself.

Ign off pin 30: 12 volts on both the working circuit and bad circuit
Ign on no relay in holder pin 86: 12.38 (working circuit) 0v on bad circuit
Ign on relay in holder pin 86: 12.38 on both circuits
Ign on relay in holder pin 85: 0 (working circuit) 12.06 (bad circuit)


Also had a look at my 2 two speed cooling fan wiring and had a bit of a mishap. Had my strip light leaning on the front of the car pulled the wiring off the 2 sensors on the bottom of the rad and found that two of the spade connectors were past there best, spades just pulled off. Tried shorting the wire together and the fan started up and chewed my strip light up. Now I cannot get the fans to come on at all Fan is ok, if I provide 12 volts to it directly then I get either full speed or low speed if through the resistor. Not sure what is going on here?

Sorry about all this

Your final test above where you get +12 volts on pin 85 on the bad circuit means to me that the ECU needs to supply ground to that pin....probably when the CPS pulses are picked up....this happens with most of the relays such as the fuel pump relay, injectors etc....could also be a temp sensor somewhere! What Motronic level are you running on... 1.3 I presume. I ask this as maybe I can see on the ECU pinouts what is supposed to turn this relay on....and what colour is the wire going to this pin 85 on the failing relay please?

[scoobydo]

ECu is Zytek, this has no control over any senors, only input is the coolant sensor for cold enrichment. So perhaps it has never worked and was an over sight when the car was modified in the late 80's. If I new what else was on the relay, if anything then with you guys help maybe we could get it working.

To confirm it is an electro mechanical. Have warmed it up and it almost closes but if you also give it 12 volt feed it warms it a bit more by a coil inside I believe to close it completely.

Cheers for help

[Brianmoooore]

To confirm it is an electro mechanical. Have warmed it up and it almost closes but if you also give it 12 volt feed it warms it a bit more by a coil inside I believe to close it completely.

Cheers for help

In that case, I would expect that the relay is controlled by a simple thermo switch in the coolant, or by a circuit that uses the coolant temperature sensor to operate the relay at a certain threshold temperature. I presume the idea is that the valve works automatically during the warm up phase, but when the car is definitely up to temperature, this circuit cuts in to ensure that the valve stays completely off.
If this is so, the relay should only turn 'on' when the engine is hot - the opposite of what I've been assuming up to now.

[Billwill]

Maybe you should just mount a switch somewhere and manually switch voltage to this valve...primitive but much like pulling the choke out when starting a really old carburetor vehicle.

Or else use the low-speed switch on the radiator...that you were messing around with...to activate a relay and do the switching for you. The low-speed switch normally comes in at 90 deg C while the high-temp one normally comes in at 99 deg C I believe....maybe your problem is actually in this low-speed switch area!

As Brian has stated maybe this works opposite to what we were thinking...that is why at the beginning of your post the wire coming from 87a is the wire going to the valve....this is a normally-closed contact and will drop the power to the valve when the relay is energized.

[scoobydo]

More good ideas guys I like Brian's latest (12 volt holds open via another circuit to ensure it stays closed) . One guy on here as I understand has a 333i he was going to give me a call to discuss 333i's in general will quiz him on how his is set. To be honest since getting the new pipe between manifold and the valve the idle is much more improved but like to follow it through.

Here it is idling quite nicely at a much lower rpm now. Not got it onto an analyzer yet as waiting for the new slave cylinder to arrive.

http://s884.photobucket.com/user/btlcam ... 3.mp4.html