Mapping problems! Please help!

[Turbo-Brown]

Well, took the car to the MOT station today. It failed on a bit of rust and the headlights being too low but was fine other than that amasingly!

Anyway, the drive there and back was not pleasant

As soon as any load is applied to the engine the revs just drop and then build, drop and build as though it were hunting, only over a range of 1500rpm or so!

I thought it might be running lean so I've upped the fuel a little bit and now it will barely come off idle: If I crack the throttle open it revs up fine to about 2000 rpm, then the revs drop again and so forth.

I really have got no clue here so anything I press is just pissing in the wind really

Please help!

Oh the other thing is that the emmissions were almost off the scale when it was idling but well within tolerance when it was revved up a bit (which it'd do for the guy at the test station)

Anyway, it's started snowing now which I don't really fancy going out in to weld

[Ant]

Funtime has started then Alex , MOT seems to be in hand so major result there, as for the running.......

Have you got the EGO enrich enabled dude ? this can cause major hassles with poor running especially on a base map only.

the TPS is obviously triggering the accel enrich OK, but can you control the rate of gain with a sensitivity trim function ? I found 1.172v/ms to be optimum for tuning at first , any more and the TPS is too trwitchy and floods the engine with a stab of throttle, it would fit what you've described as it seems to be running in a loop.

only thing I can suggest is zero all enrichments, turn the EGO off and run the car through the rpms wth nop load and see where, if anywhere the car seems to stutter, then attempt to tune in small increments around that area.

If you need a hand I can pop along with the LM1 and get stuck in with you mate, just cover the fuel costs and I'm there , I'm sure FOzz will pop along too if we can make it midweek sometime ? I need to look at his settings again anyways..

Lemme know dude, I'll do my best to help ya from here, I have the emerald software too so I can peruse your map if you email it to me

HTH

[Turbo-Brown]

Hey Ant, many thanks for the help!

What's an EGO?

I had a bit of a thought about the way the FPR is connected up. It had it's signal line going to only one throttle so it gets a very uneven signal. Anyway, I've taken the line off and it seems much happier to rev without load now so that might be a possible culprit?

Could you PM me your e-mail addy so I can send you the map? It's only a very slightly modded version of Len's map so I was hoping it'd have got me most of the way there!

If you'd be willing to pop over some time that'd be awesome! Unfortunately I haven't got a garage though
I also haven't got a lambda boss so I'd better sort one out!

Not sure about the accel enrichment as I think that's only a transient throttle thing, but with this massive hunting, I can open the throttle slowly and keep it in one position with the engine still playing silly buggers.

Many thanks for the help!

Alex

[Ant]

alex use the ant@e30zone addy and I'll have a peek @ the map

The fpr should not have that much effect but who knows with the Tbs..

EGO= Exhaust Gas Oxygen, I'm guessing as you have no 02 boss its not an issue, the LM1 has its own boss and clamp that gets shoved up the tailpipe so no issue there dude

agreed the accel enrich is transient, but if she hunts and you have to ticlke the pedal you will be triggering the accel, thats why I suggested setting acel enrich to zero and tryng like that, obv dont slam it from idle to WOT but you get the gist. If shes lean she'll "gurgle" through the tailpipes and cough a little.

As for Garage... you and me both dude !

send me the map and I'll see if I can see whats what, I take it you left the fuelling dip @ 2.2K well alone on Lens map ?

[weegaz22]

sure its not running rich?

[lentec]

Alex my understanding was that hunting was usually caused by air leaks!?
But with the fueling at idle mine does smell a bit rich but soon as its warm its all good!

I had a bit of an incident once when rescaling the injector sizes using the supplyed software. dont know if that may be the problem?

[Andy335Touring]

I had a bit of an incident once when rescaling the injector sizes using the supplyed software. dont know if that may be the problem?

I don't know if it might help but i had a problem rescaling mine untill i realized what i was doing wronge.

I entered 220cc's for my old injectors and 30lbs for my new injectors and it calculated a new MSPB(see below picture), it went from 61 to four hundred and some thing. It was wrong and wouldn't run.

You have to have fuel units the same for new/old injectors i.e CC/CC or LBS/LBS or it calculates it wrong.

When i did it properly the MSPB went from 61 to 41(?) and the car runs fine.

This screen capture will explain what MSPB means better than i could



Can't wait to start playing with my fueling map but i'm waiting on parts, the new twin 60mm TB still isn't here

[Toby_Unna]

car sorted yet Andy?

i'm not looking forward to this tuning lark one bit! i have half-built my megasquirt board now, and it will at least connect to my laptop which is a good start!

sorry i can't contribute anything useful Alex, i'll stop cluttering ya thread now

[Andy335Touring]

car sorted yet Andy?

YHM

[Turbo-Brown]

Well, tomorrow will be it's second drive to another garage to get the welding done (it's too wet and cold for me to wanna do it myself!)

I'm pretty sure it will have been running lean as I've now gained some understanding of how the FPR works:

It keeps the fuel pressure at 3bar above manifold pressure so as it's only really running N/A at the moment, with the throttle closed there'll be about 1/2 bar of vacuum leading to a fuel pressure of about 2 1/2 bar. I was only opening the throttle up to load site 3 or 4 so the vacuum will still have been quite high which would've kept the fuel pressure a little lower than the 3bar.

With the signal line detached, the fuel remains a constant 3bar so it will have richened things up a bit.

I probably explained the hunting thing badly. It wasn't doing the rapid oscillation of the revs that a hunting engine usually does, it's just that the revs would rise, then suddenly drop by miles, then rise again.

Will hopefully find out tomoz if it's any more drivable!

Cheers guys for all your input!

Ant, will e-mail that map over in a mo!

Cheers!

[Ant]

alex I have mailed yu a response with regard to this, I have had a few ideas on where the issue may lie, have a read throgh and see what your take on the matter is.

In short, for anyone interested.... too much advance and too much fuel, reducing both should provide some better conditions.

I have concerns over the injector sizing too mate, @ the quoted flow rate they will be running way over 100% over 4K under low boost, be careful with the loud pedal mate, or increase base fuel pressure and recalc the flow rate, disconnect the vac line and tune without compensation , its easier dude.

HTH

[Turbo-Brown]

Hi Ant, many many thanks indeed for looking at this for me!

I must admit that I have no idea about the ignition map, it's exactly the same as Len's which I guess is working for him.

The reason I think it's running lean and not rich is that I raised the fuel pressure by disconnecting the signal line from the FPR and it's happy to rev now.

I set the rev limit to 4K last night and the actuators aren't connected at the moment so it shouldn't make any boost (I hope) and the guy who's coming to pick it up tomoz is under strict instructions not to open the throttle more than is strictly necessary!

Really need to get it through it's MOT and then, if you're willing, to get the sniffer in it's exhaust to see what's really going on!

Blooming cars!

Cheers!

Alex

[Toby_Unna]

if it all worked perfectly first time then you weren't ambitious enough with the project!

another utterly useless post from me

[pete1979]

toby i think ill be going with ms on my 325turbo whats it like does it look simple to use ? also how much does it cost and where can i get it cheers.

[Turbo-Brown]

that's one way of looking at it I guess.

The other is that I just want it to be finished!

Anyway, took the keys to the garage today so the welding etc will soon be sorted. With any luck I might be able to get the MOT done on saturday.

[lentec]

So ant do you recon im running too much advance?
Only i didnt have a clue what the max advance is ment to be so i raised it untill it felt ok.
As for the fuleing it seems to lean out a tad at high rpm gear changes
Any sugestions?

If your game for a bit of a mapping i could use the help

[e30_Turbo]

I'm now into hardcore tuning myself, have got the innovate wideband working now after a few months of frustration, but it's on and working.
I've completed some datalogs and had a good look through, seems I'm lean on cruise, light throttle and mega rich on boost, so I've run my base map through the tuning program and it's leaning the top end out each time, building and smoothing the lower half, which is nice.
Just need some more time datalogging, some more WOT runs and I should be half done.
Yet to play with the sparks but Ant assures me the journey to full control is not gonna be to bad.
I'll try post some screen shots of a datalog....

[Andy335Touring]

WBO2 and data logging is going to be a big help for a numpty like me !

[Turbo-Brown]

Have to admit to being in the dark when it comes to the WBO2 and datalogging thing!

Does the Innovate thing come with software that does all this, or do you couple the sensor and it's controller to the ECU and use the datalogging on that?

I really wish I had an MOT! There's a rolling road just around the corner from me and it'd be nice to get a basic map sorted so I knew I wasn't about to melt anything!

[Andy335Touring]

Use the WB with the data logging of the ECU with a lap top, log REVs/MAP sensor(TPS for me)/AFRs whilst you do a run in third gear WOT from 1k though to the red line (this might not be practical for you though ?) to start with then you could spend some time fine tuning part throttle settings ?

I'm not experienced with mapping cars but this is my game plan for mine when i start playing with it.

Have you thought about taking it to Dave Walker to set up ?

[Turbo-Brown]

Yeah ultimately I plan to take it to Emerald, but they said I need about 500 miles one the engine before they can map it.

If I ever get the MOT sorted, I'm gonna get in contact with the local RR and ask if they can do me a map that gets me up to about 4k rpm, just for my peace of mind!

[e30_Turbo]

Innovate has it's own dataloging system called logworks2, it's pretty flash, but as I'm stuck into MS I'm useing it's own datalogging feature.
I run these datalogs through a program that picks up the pre-set afr cross-over points based on the data provided and then you calculate your current map with the % alterations given by the cross over info.
Then save that map and load it back to the main config file, or just burn it direct to the ecu.
It was mind boggling at first, but having the datalogs to view and seeing the changes as they happen makes it all make sense after a while.
I also seem to have EGT readings which if true is a very nice addition.
When I figure out how to get this laptop to do a screen dump I'll post some pictures.
Mark.

[E30Mark]

When I figure out how to get this laptop to do a screen dump I'll post some pictures.

What laptop?, does it not have a 'Print screen' button?

I love this thread, ain't really got a clue what you guys are on about, but it's all good learning!

[e30_Turbo]

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lm1.php

One if these would be very handy

[Ant]

LM 1 is indeed a good weapon

Lennie, as yours is S/C I must admit I'm in the dark when it comes to your crossover points for the advance curve, but I would suggest less advance around idle and possibly up to speed site 4, under boost it should be 2 degrees per PSI of retar from the N/A map ( as a starting point) so max adv WOT 40 degrees trimmed for 6 psi should give 28 degrees(example)


pete1979, I have a built spare MS v2.2 I can provide you with, brand new inc complete loom etc, PM if interested or gimme a call dude, like all these things the learning curve is steep at the outset, but you soon get your head around it once physically tuning

HTH

[Andy335Touring]

Yeah ultimately I plan to take it to Emerald, but they said I need about 500 miles one the engine before they can map it.

If I ever get the MOT sorted, I'm gonna get in contact with the local RR and ask if they can do me a map that gets me up to about 4k rpm, just for my peace of mind!

Ah, sorry i forgot you had to run it in

Have you tried it on a differant map ?

This is the specs of the VR6 turbo, how similar to yours does it sound ?

VR6 turbo
360cc Injectors
0.75bar boost, 267bhp @ 5100rpm, 305lb/ft @ 4388rpm

I can email you the map if you want it ?

[Turbo-Brown]

We did try the VR6 turbo map to on the very first try (think I've got the same one as you by the looks of it ) but it would barely even run, let alone idle!

It'd kind of start, wobble the engine about for 5seconds and then die.

Tried Len's map with the injectors re-scaled and it started first time and settled to a rock steady idle!

Will no doubt get an irate phone call from the guy who's picking it up tomorrow saying it's almost undrivable as I've effectively upped the fuel pressure and also dialled in a little more fuel

Anyway, all being well it should be ready for it's MOT on Saturday and hopefully it'll pass this time!

Checked with local RR: Ԛ£100 per hour, and can't give a price to do half a map! Think it's time to buy a WBO2 kit and get things going myself! (With help from Ant and Fozzy that is if you're still willing )

[Andy335Touring]

Two hours on the rollers would pay for the WBO2 !

Two hours of his RR time would get you a mint map at Daves

[Turbo-Brown]

That's exacly what I thought!

I wouldn't mind paying Ԛ£100 or so for a map to 4k rpm, but I get nervous when people won't tie themselves down to a fixed price as it could end up costing an awful lot of money for something that's only gonna need to last for 500 miles!

[e30_Turbo]

Here's a shot of a datalog I took tonight, you can see where I drop fuel @ 5100rpms, just had the guru figure it out, I ran off my map!!! need to move the map bins topend and try again!! I love that part..


Top graph - Throttle position - Yellow
MAP - Purple
Blue - Rpms

Graph two - Pulse width

And the rest are marked up

[Andy335Touring]

erm....it's hard to interpret that mate.

Can you change it so it just displays AFR/REVs/MAP ?

[Jon_Bmw]

erm....it's hard to interpret that mate.

Can you change it so it just displays AFR/REVs/MAP ?

Same as that, it actually made my eyes hurt looking at that Mark

God help you boys who have to look at that all the time.

I'm sure it does get more straight forward the more time you spend with it...hopefully.

[e30_Turbo]

Just added a few details at the bottom of the pic, and they aint that bad to look at, you only end up looking at a few off points through the whole datalog really.
I use mine with a software package that works well so far, still needs human touch to fine tune and certainly not perfect but a good 80% of the way there now.

It's fun when you start to FEEL the difference

167kph is 10.15psi!!

[Ant]

the log viewer is a good bit of kit, you can play back your runs and see what where and when, makes a world of diff to the overall tune.

I must admit I still do mine old skool with the AFR meter hooked up and direct live map on the laptop, however logs are the way to a perfecto tune as Mark has stated already

Good work Mr Fozz

[Jon_Bmw]

Right right i'm starting to understand them now. I feel so pleased with myself(stupid boy that i am).

So as you stamp on the throttle the AFR drops down to a healthy 12.20 then when you release the gas the TP drops to closed and the RPM falls gradualy with it and your AFR increases back up to 18?, i think...

If i'm understanding that does that mean on tick over your AFR is 18? or am i talking shite?

Hmm just when i thought i was understanding it, i seem to have confused myself...

Experts would you like to give a breif, more definate and presise answer, as i think i might confuse everyone including myself