Just my luck - cylinder head woe’s

[SilverShadow]

On Friday I dropped off the head to Corry’s Cylinder Heads to get recon’d to eliminate an oil burning issue (stem seal, exhaust guides, skim etc).

Neil has confirmed that the seals and guides are completely shot and would need replacing which would resolve the oil issue.

However just my luck he also stating that there is scoring on the head where the camshaft meets/sits. The lobes seem to be fine alongside the rockers. His exact words where ”athat the cam shaft bearing is torn and there is scoring on the head where the cam sits”a?

Apart from the oil issue the engine was running completely fine and Neil basically gave me 2 options:

Option 1:
Carry out the original work as requested (seal and guides) and use the same head and cam.
Cost Approx £200

Option 2:
Buy new head and cam and build up a new head.
Cost approx £1000

I wanted some opinions in what option I should take and what the implications are in using the same head and cam, taking in consideration that the engine ran completely fine bar the oil issue?

I have asked whether pics of the scoring could be sent via email but he said that it would be too faint to show up and its best if I go down to the shop to see for myself which is around 45min drive away.

The head (85) has come off a Hartge H27 lump, which has a highlifted cam etc.

What do you guys suggest?

[pacerpete]

Neil is a top bloke and you are in good hands

The scored cam and journals will cause a loss of oil pressure, how much is hard to say. Probably nothing to worry about.

Ask Neil for his opinion but , unless it is really foooked ,I am guessing he will say to reuse it, as would I.

[SilverShadow]

Neil is a top bloke and you are in good hands

The scored cam and journals will cause a loss of oil pressure, how much is hard to say. Probably nothing to worry about.

Ask Neil for his opinion but , unless it is really foooked ,I am guessing he will say to reuse it, as would I.

Thanks for the reply Pete!

I tried getting his opinion however he only reverted to the above options.

He has sent me some pics of the scoring....

Your thought would be appriciated

[pacerpete]

It does not look pretty but as plan B is a new head or a used one that has had a full refresh and a Hartge cam, the £1000 + saving would have me reusing it. I cannot see it causing an issue.
Has the head had any port work or is it stock ?

[SilverShadow]

The head hasn't been ported or polished...

What's the implications of the scoring, low oil pressure but what can that result to?

[B7]

I'm going to disagree here. While a new cam would cure that side of the scoring, the bearing surfaces in the head are well shot. All thats going to do is keep dragging and getting worse.

I see no point in building up a head only to see a reduced oil pressure albeit minimal, and another rebuilt further down the line.

I'd be sourcing a better casting and cam if i'm honest.

I've reused before where theres minimal scoring like the one below but never as bad as that:

[jimmyspeed]

if the oils pressure gets too low it will cause damage to the bearings and eventually seize - can you get an oversized cam and just rebore the head ?

[pacerpete]

if the oils pressure gets too low it will cause damage to the bearings and eventually seize - can you get an oversized cam and just rebore the head ?

No.

[B7]

Once the bearing surfaces are shot then so is the head.

I've wondered if any company can machine it larger and fit a white metal bearing. Would be costly though I'd imagine.

[dave525]

Thats quite bad scoring,looks like its had oil starvation at some point.Are all the bearings like that or just one or two.If all are like that you may have an oil circulation problem.If you fit a new head it may end up the same.If just a couple then the problem was in the cam oil circulation.I would clean it up and reuse it.If it ran fine before it should be ok again and shouldnt cause any oil pressure loss as its at the end of the circuit.As you say the valve guides are shot the maybe the whole engine is worn.Do you know what condition the crank bearings and oil pump are in.It will always be a bit of a risk to re use it but so is fitting a grands worth of new head if you dont find a concrete cause for the damage.

[TPS]

if the oils pressure gets too low it will cause damage to the bearings and eventually seize - can you get an oversized cam and just rebore the head ?

No.

+1, Oh no

[dave525]

i would certainly blow through all the oilways with an airline to check for blockages first before putting it back and ensure you have a good oil feed up to the head

[Andyboy]

The head hasn't been ported or polished...

Then it's scrap. That bearing is very ugly and I wouldn't use it.

[e30topless]

I would replace the head if it's just a standard 885 is it not stamped with the Hartge Logo/serial near the top where the rocker bolts down ?
should look something like this the stamp is usually faint..


the cam doesn't look too bad from the pic so that might go again ?
as others suggest looks like you have oil starvation that needs investigating

[pacerpete]

Ignore the doom mongers, 'dress' the affected journals and cam bearings and reuse it. It has not killed the engine yet and will hardly do so anytime soon. The £1000 bullet you dodge can now be spent fixing all the other foooked bits

[Speedtouch]

There are firms who do remetalling of such items.

[scjimbo]

There are firms who do remetalling of such items.

Try ABR specialist welding in west brom.

The guys called Bill Hewitson. Trust me, if anyone can weld a bit of that back in, its him. We use him at work all the time.

Tel No:- 0121 525 1319

Hes a grumpy old sod, but trust me when I say he is the very best in the business.

He has laser welding facilities which only apply heat to the specific melt pool area so there is absolutely no sink or distortion whatsoever.

[SilverShadow]

Guys a massive thank you for replying with all the details I have learnt a lot in a day or so!!

I have been monitoring the thread and I have asked Corry's to give me a few days to think about what action to take next. I am going to do another trip down to the shop to identify if any the Hartge trade marks on the head (markings, cam, chamber work, ports etc). Also to assess the damage, from there I think I will be able to make better judgement whether to continue with the current state of the head and cam or to source a good 2.5 (885) head and cam.

I managed to locate a pic of the chambers of the head when I took the head off:



With help from a silent zoner. I have been checking the stroke on the block/piston and confirm the distance from TDC and BDC is 81/82mm. I can also confirm that the ECU is marked with Hartge stamps and with the ECU chip bonded to the housing (apparently a Hartge trade mark).

I think from now and till I visit Corry's I will be researching options regading new cam options, sourcing if I opt for changing the head and cam.

[HairyScreech]

I'm actually going to go with Pete on this one, the cam journals are so large as they have minimal oil pressure anyway, they rely on the relative speed of the two surfaces to stay in hydrodynamic lubrication.
As an easy mid term fix just puff the journal out slightly with a hone to clean up a lot of the mess (minimal amount though, don't want to go making the bore huge) and run it. There will be much worse running around quite happily in so called "mint" cars with no one being aware until the next time the cam comes out (not exactly something you do regularly).

Edit- as for the potential oil starvation I expect the spray bar is marked best before 1988 and has never been checked.
That level of damage is border line starvation as if you were really staving the top end you would see much worse in the cam lobes and other journals.
Is this one of the smaller journals near the back of the head?

[Andyboy]

Bear in mind that the valve train is the highest stressed part of the engine. That cam has the pressure of 12 valve springs against it. To me that head is scrap - I wouldn't dream of using it as is on a stock engine, never mind anything a bit fruity. The cam is definitely junk and if it's a Hartge head and cam, I would have the cam bearings line bored and fitted with white metal bearings before bing reamed to suit a new cam.

Seriously - look at the f ucking state of it!

[anothere21323i]

If it helps I have a good head with the crack testing paperwork too. I don't want much for it. PM me if you're interested.

[pacerpete]

Bear in mind that the valve train is the highest stressed part of the engine. That cam has the pressure of 12 valve springs against it. To me that head is scrap - I wouldn't dream of using it as is on a stock engine, never mind anything a bit fruity. The cam is definitely junk and if it's a Hartge head and cam, I would have the cam bearings line bored and fitted with white metal bearings before bing reamed to suit a new cam.

Seriously - look at the f ucking state of it!

So if it was yours, you would pony up an EXTRA ONE THOUSAND POUNDS ; £1000 ;ONE THOUSAND FOOOKING PRISONERS so that you had an extra 5psi @ the spare wheel ?

I thought not

[Speedtouch]

Be completely different, and fit a Jaguar XK cylinder head; I have a spare available.

[SilverShadow]

Guys I know it's a long shot but can anyone confirm by looking at the pic of the chambers of the head that it is in fact hartge worked head??

This is the only pics I have at the moment but could take more detailed pics when I visit the shop again to asses the damage.....?

[davethegoat]

I used these guys so long ago that I can't remember what work I had done. I do remember being a happy customer though!:

http://cylinderheadshop.com/category/featured/

I'd give them a shout with a view to getting at least a quote for having your head repaired. There's absolutely no way in the world that head would go back on any engine of mine as it is!

Dave.

[SilverShadow]

I'd give them a shout with a view to getting at least a quote for having your head repaired. There's absolutely no way in the world that head would go back on any engine of mine as it is!

Dave.

Cheers Dave for the link!

I think first I need to determine whether the head is in fact a Hartge head.

If it is a standard 2.5 (885) head then I should source another good head and put all my efforts into that?

[davethegoat]

[/quote]

Cheers Dave for the link!

I think first I need to determine whether the head is in fact a Hartge head.

If it is a standard 2.5 (885) head then I should source another good head and put all my efforts into that?[/quote]

That's what I'd be doing. I'd be quietly hoping not to see any Hartge markings on your head right now TBH. That'll make it a far easier decision!
Imho it's not worth risking the cam siezing and possibly making the rest of the engine scrap.
I don't know how rare/expensive Hartge cams are, but it might be worth having a word with someone like Kent Cams who (IIRC from last century) used to spray weld cams to build extra material and machine them for "lumpy" cam profiles. You may be able to get the bearing surfaces built up and machined back to standard. Come to that, it may be worth looking into getting the bearing surfaces built up "oversize" and getting the head line bored.

Cheers.