What do i do ?

[spook]

Whos the guy who is doing the engine work? if i were you i would buy Petes engine and get it fitted pronto, or you could be facing a summer with out the car on the road.

Or get Robbie to have a look.

[griffith500user]

Once you've got the piston out, it enables you to check if the rings are seized or not. If they are I suggest you carefully remove all the pistons and rods in the same way and soak them in some solvent. You can then either buy or borrow a piston ring compressor to size the rings on the pistons and carefully insert them into the bores and push them back down to locate onto the crank. Make sure that each piston is refitted in the same orientation as it was removed, (carefully mark it up before you remove it.) Taking them out will also give you the opportunity to measure up and check the condition of the big end shells and crank journals. There was certainly no indication of any bottom end grumbles when I owned it, so I would imagine all is A1.

[polsta]

Once you've got the piston out, it enables you to check if the rings are seized or not. If they are I suggest you carefully remove all the pistons and rods in the same way and soak them in some solvent. You can then either buy or borrow a piston ring compressor to size the rings on the pistons and carefully insert them into the bores and push them back down to locate onto the crank. Make sure that each piston is refitted in the same orientation as it was removed, (carefully mark it up before you remove it.) Taking them out will also give you the opportunity to measure up and check the condition of the big end shells and crank journals. There was certainly no indication of any bottom end grumbles when I owned it, so I would imagine all is A1.

Thanks Dom, well you as I know how it ran, I ran it all that summer with no problems with engine or anything else mechanically, it was right in the button

My thinking of the bore wash thing - it had a missfire , we don't know if it was low compression as such (40s on 3) at that point, depending on exactly how the bore wash comes about - its fees able that that came about when I was trying to get it started - then its still got the missfire , gone there , and now this , if you see what in saying (trev)

[polsta]

Whos the guy who is doing the engine work? if i were you i would buy Petes engine and get it fitted pronto, or you could be facing a summer with out the car on the road.

Or get Robbie to have a look.

I've spoke to robbie , meeting up with him today for a chat rather than talk in here/phone , So wel see what he had to say, stay tuned...

[daimlerman]

M20 engine is a jewel of an engine to strip/re-build,comes apart in a logical Germatical way.

There is just one difficult bit,slacking off the 22mm crank bolt.The only way to do this at home is to deal with it before the engine is removed.After that,just buy/borrow the specalist tools that you find you need.

Buy,beg or borrow a Bentley manual,read the engine dismantling section until you know it by heart,then get stuck in.

I have done this,so can even you!

[polsta]

Thing is even if the bores are scrubbed from fuel I can't see the compression being down to 40, that's incredibly low.

Might well be wrong, just doesn't seem like it would be the case.

THIS

Bore wash will only cause issues over time and then not 40psi

This ran fine before the belt was fitted.



With all due respect Carl, asking questions about what and how you deal with a piston once it's out says you are well out of your depth on this.

Also the fact you are asking so many questions says you are not trusting your mate the mechanic.

You need to either run with him or listen to us and get the damn thing away from him and let someone who knows m20s see the car.

Or buy Petes engine. It's not like you can't rebuild the correct lump in your own time, learning along the way at your own pace. Looked after, Petes engine will still be worth 300 notes if not more when the original goes back in.

Of course I am, I don't dispute that I know fookall about pistons and engines , BUT , if my bottom end is ok and it's all savable , if rather if pos save it now get it back in the road , than take it out go and get petes engine , bring it back, all swapped over , store mine or then be told mines on doesn't need a full re build etc , I've had the weekend to think about this hence the thread and lots if great views, and a few different views and ideas, So I don't want to just jump the gun and put a new engine in if it doesn't need it , but if it does need it and mines spangled then I will do that

[ross_jsy]

The more I think about it the more I realise the compression couldn't be that low from a bottom end problem bar there being sodding great holes in each of the pistons. I wouldn't be surprised if a piston with no rings could make that, or close to it.

Ask for the valves and stick them in a drill yourself

[HairyScreech]

My thoughts exactly, just the piston with no rings could probably pump up to that albeit slowly.

Even if the valves were bent or there was a seating issue then it would be showing no visual signs after so little running, takes time to leave a witness mark on the seats so my thinking still leads down that route.

To lose 130psi from those 3 cylinders your looking at some impressive leakage. And just a valve seating issue will not do that. Where ever that compression is going it is pissing out.

Bent valves are not instantly visible either, case in point I was up at maggspowers and he picked up a valve and said "whats wrong with that?" in my hand at a glance nothing,in the drill it went around like the orbit of venus.

[polsta]

M20 engine is a jewel of an engine to strip/re-build,comes apart in a logical Germatical way.

There is just one difficult bit,slacking off the 22mm crank bolt.The only way to do this at home is to deal with it before the engine is removed.After that,just buy/borrow the specalist tools that you find you need.

Buy,beg or borrow a Bentley manual,read the engine dismantling section until you know it by heart,then get stuck in.

I have done this,so can even you!

id do it if i really had to, only thing is- ive not really got the space to do so ive got a single rented garage, after a long time, my garage is only just getting to the point of havign a bit of space, i can put a work bench across the back, but - theres no power, and car will still be in there, theres probably 1.5-2ft max you can stand between car and a bench ,and some space down the side of the car to get in, so like an L shape around the car , and then having to be immensley careful not to scratch the car etc etc , or you can wheel the car in/out whilst working there, but then if raining/bad weather, thats not really what i want to do , no light no power no heat, i could maybe squeeze a small generator under the bench , but then thats noise and fumes and constant running cost, and personaly im not that mechanical minded to think of taking on an engine re build like that in them conditions

[GE3OFF-77]

have the valve clearance,s been adjusted recently?
To loose that much compression i would say bent or non seating valves caused by incorect adjustment or timing.
if the belt was incorecty tensioned it May well of jumped on startup.
As the head was removed by someone else you have no way of knowing if the engine timed up right.
if it was bore washing for a long period of time the engine would,ve smoked due to the oil being diluted with fuel.
You would,ve been hosing through fuel as well.

[Speedtouch]

Ok I see, so you can just remove the pistons and rings and if all ok just re fit ?

Yes.

How much roughly would a set of rings cost ? If it was a case of remove sump,pistons and rings out , and just te fit and replace with new rings and a glaze is it ? What sort if labour time is involved in that as a job ?

(Sorry for the questions but I have no idea about this sort if thing so trying to gushes senarios and rough costs of things )

E-bay is your friend:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksi ... &_from=R40

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cylinder-Hone ... 1c2e3c2c15

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PROFESSIONAL- ... 4170718b45

[polsta]

right little update, after this thread and a few convos, and speaking to HKF, and confirming a few things, this is the plan

as i said im probably not relaying everything 100%, ive been down there today for a little while...

the valve seats on the exhaust side, were all bad, no real nice shiny rim, lots of deposits etc, the bottoms were quite badly coked up, but he said (this the bit i re layed wrong) all were bad (not good) but there was no difference in how bad, between the good/bad psi

3,4 were 40s psi, 6 (not 1) was 80spsi, rest 170s

i said about the 1 and 6 oil test thing as was mentioned, he said thats a common test but ideally need to get the block straight to do so, as it sits at that angle

anyway plan is thus-

cleaned up and re lapped all the valves in , got a set of stem oil seals ordered to be there tomorrow £20 and fit, then take it to be tested for £25

then depending if good/bad- good (on HKF advice if the head gasket is ok not mullered) - re fit it , using the old head gasket and bolts, and then re test it and see the findings

then if good, buy a new head gasket set and bolts etc and do a cple more things on the head, then fit it all back together and away

if not and its still the same or just slightly better, then make some decisions where to go from there, but at least its not much spent and il know a bit more and that the head is at least decent

hows that sound ?

[capri_rob]

Havent read all 5 pages in detail just skimmed it ( no pun intended )

IMO you should just get Petes engine in there ASAP - you'll then be able to enjoy it and you've got the peace of mind its a proper engine from a proper zoner.

You could be chasing problems for ages trying to fix the original donk - it might be cheap but if you're paying someone to do the work rather than DIY that £300 it would cost to get Petes engine will be swallowed up in the blink of an eye

If you're really desparate to keep the engine numbers matching ( bearing in mind that its a nicely restored one rather than a low mileage unmolested minter ) I'd be looking to build a 2.7 conversion using the original block in your own time - at least you'll have the use and enjoyment of the car in the meantime

HTH

[polsta]

thats an option of course, bear in mind also...how many original low milage un restored mint tech 1s are there, not many if any bar the wln one, so thats irrelevent ,mines been done to a decent standard with genuine panels not loads of patches and crap and all original and nice in many areas with no real major work or rot in it in the 1st place, but im not throwing silly money at it and its/was a nice engine performed admirably when last running, with that plan above its under £100 to get some sort of conclusion and at least have a reconed head thats proven decent, if it compressions up ok and all is well then jobs a goodun and at least after this kerfuffle ive at least got the original engine and a recon head in it, if its conclusive there are bottom end issues, then we go from there

so fingers crossed and just have to hope,sigh

[pacerpete]

To recon your head will cost a lot more than a ton ! I guarantee your guides will all be worn, the valves , assuming they are still straight....) will be pitted and the tops mushroomed, the cam will have wear as will the rocker shafts and arms. £2000 should cover a full engine rebuild, if you are lucky

[Simon13]

£2000 in parts/machine work pete means. Then add some serious labour time to do it with the car you think it should have.

[DanThe]

£2000 in parts/machine work pete means. Then add some serious labour time to do it with the car you think it should have.

The man speaks from experience /\

[FatmanGolf]

TBH you may as well just drop up another M20 into it. Whats the point in striving towards it being super OEM or a concourse car when its just another patched up E30 that isn't really worth a lot.

[jimbom30cab]

If I were you Polsta dude, I would knock up a nice 2.7 lump

[polsta]

No it will come in under a ton to find out as said above, the valves look
Straight and decent and the cam and the bits on it look very nice had a look earlier, but anyway just have to see 1st what the pressure tests verdict is from the machine shop and if it needs a skim etc

Then 2nd what happens if its re fitted and the compression re tested

Then its where to go from there depending in the findings, but im happy at the cost to find out

[FatmanGolf]

TBH you may as well just drop up another M20 into it. Whats the point in striving towards it being super OEM or a concourse car when its just another patched up E30 that isn't really worth a lot.

[jimbom30cab]

If it were me, i'd drop Pete's engine in and use your knackered one for spares, bish bash bosh jobs a good un.

I'll even lend you my engine crane and Haynes manual if you like

[Morat]

My head refurb was £700 from a good local machine shop. New parts were 6 exhaust guides. 6 rockers. A gasket set and possibly a few valves. The rest of the parts came from combining the best bits from two cracked heads. Everything fitted was in spec so it wasn't a lash up job by any means but unless you DIY I can't see you getting much cheaper.
Sorry.... but best you know before you get halfway in.

I would stick an m50 in there for the same money.

[B7]

the valves look Straight

There is no fucking way on gods earth you'll tell they are 100% straight by just looking at them! Have you done as suggested as spun them up in either a lather or pillar drill.

And then you are going to waste a head gasket to check?

If ALL the valve seats look bad, then why were only 2 pots down to 40 PSI???

Read this again.

the valve seats on the exhaust side, were all bad, no real nice shiny rim, lots of deposits etc, the bottoms were quite badly coked up, but he said (this the bit i re layed wrong) all were bad (not good) but there was no difference in how bad, between the good/bad psi 3,4 were 40s psi, 6 (not 1) was 80spsi, rest 170s

Those valve seats and valve guides sound like every M20 head I've ever stripped (and I've done my fair share) and compression checks showed a damn sight more than 40PSI.

You have got to spin those valve up and check them for run out / trueness. It's a pointless job unless you prove they are straight.

[TPS]

Just fit another Engine!!!! Your one is fooked!!!!

[The_Diddler]

Just fit another Engine!!!! Your one is fooked!!!!

6 pages in and still not listening to advise from guys who know what they are doing who are all saying the same thing!!!!!

Get that engine from Pete fitted it works!!!!!!!!!!, it'll be in, in a day as well, then fix your own when time and money allows, then resell the donor engine for probably the same as you bought it.

Jesz your making something complicated out of something that should be a nobrainer............................

Just my opinion of course, your free to ignore it like all the others.

[TPS]

I'm no expert Paul, but it just sounds like scrap now, 40 psi??? that tells the story, cambelt change gone wrong, move on, fit another engine that works. Pete is your man to contact.

[Rav335uk]

There goes the origionality of the car.

[The_Diddler]

There goes the origionality of the car.

Only for a short time whilst the original donk is sorted.

[Cloggy Saint]

There goes the origionality of the car.

The originality of the car went a long time ago. I can't imagine there are too many people (outside of this place perhaps) that care one way or the other if the engine number is original.

[Duke137]

There goes the origionality of the car.

The originality of the car went a long time ago. I can't imagine there are too many people (outside of this place perhaps) that care one way or the other if the engine number is original.

Exactly, I was just about to type the same thing

What choice would he have if the original donk is scrap?

[pacerpete]

There goes the origionality of the car.

That must make your cab £210 worth then ! (£140 per ton x
1500kg)


PS Did you find your keys ?






PPS Nice prefacelift high comp donk pacer !

[Andyboy]

I estimate we'll be at 10 pages by thursday 7pm.

[Morat]

I estimate we'll be at 10 pages by thursday 7pm.

The big question for me is whether there will be a conclusion before the inevitable teddy/floor interface and thread lock.

[Rav335uk]

There goes the origionality of the car.

That must make your cab £210 worth then ! (£140 per ton x
1500kg)


PS Did you find your keys ?

What keys?