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polsta
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:33 pm

Got a bit of a problem need some advice please guys, leave out any pi$$ taking or crap i dont need it :(

right got everything back togther and theres a missfire, had a compression test- 1,3,4, were in the 40s psi, the rest in the 170s, they suspected some sort of piston/rings issue was mates gut feeling

so its currently at his garage- the heads been removed, no visible cracks or anything, the block is still in the car, the valve seats and stem oil seals need doing , hes still not sure about the pistons- on one of them there was some damage/pitting on the top and on that bit on the head, he said looks like an old would where years ago the top of a spark plug or something like that had broke off in there, and a bit of a score in 1

hes basicly saying -what do i want to do ? im at about £150 right now

at 1st- he said- new valve stem oil seals, re set the valves, get the head cleaned up pressure tested,skimmed if need be, and a new head gasket- put it back on all reconditioned- test the compression and see what it says, if all good put it back together and away you go, but if its not....., and to get to that is about £6-700 after pricing it all up, a lot more than initialy thought ,as the vavle seals and stuff are a lot more than hed guessed, at 1st he said could maybe be 3-400 to get to that, worth the gamble and at worst you loose a head gasket and a bit of labour but have a reconditioned head, but he said personaly at 6-700 its not worth the gamble but its my choice

he said one thing that indicated- was there wasnt really any difference between the valve seats from the low compression ones, to the others, and showed me them

he said when you start taking out the block and getting in to new pistons and rings ,bores,etc etc it starts running away and all the labour involved youl be at a few grand before you know it

but they dont seem too sure on exactly the problem

another option- new engine ,i can either source a new engine, or there is another whole car i can buy, an 86 325i 2 door switchable auto cirrus blue,83k genuine milage ive had a good look through the history, a 1 owner car every mot from new and service book etc, even genuine bmw stamps from 2009,often only doing 3-4k a year between mots, the car is running and driving, generlly a nice reasonable 325, had some welding on the rear arches but panels are nice enough etc, its got air con all working, abs, the car is mot ready, i can buy it tax it and drive it around, or drive it around now the engine is good

bmw have confirmed from both numbers its engine is the same as mine made from the same cast in the same batch at same time, even confirming the dates they were fitted at factory just a few months apart, so i can buy that car, get the engine put in mine, using the nice bits from mine , get my engine to my garage and then work out what to do with it- re build it as a long term project or something, then sell the rest of that car as a rolling shell or break it, or source another engine, although i do know that ones good and proven good, including the purchase of the car, and all the work done and mine driven out with an 83k engine, mot and all new fluids etc £1300-1500 , and ive got the rest of that car sat there to break or sell whole, and my original engine to re build or whatever

or source another engine ???, take a gamble on it if not proven,then get it here, then in etc etc

or do i get mine done, or any other options or things to test on the block as it is to get to the bottom of it

so im really at a bit of a ?? as to what to do, would appriciate any advice on this its giving me a f**king head ache

:(
Rav335uk
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:44 pm

Taking the engine out and replacing it will no doubt not be OEM now.

So , I would , in keeping with the origionality of the "sport", be rebuilding the origional engine.

On the other hand, if you're not bothered about the OEM'ness of the car, replace the engine.

Simple. :D
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Grrrmachine
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:46 pm

One of your options is seriously to buy a whole new car just strip just for the engine? Not only will your car not be original (which must be something you hate) but you're also destroying what sounds like a really clean E30 to do so. That's madness.

The only way you'll get serious peace of mind is to rebuild your engine and fit it. That fits in with your OEM ethos, and while it's a lot of cash it's the only way you'll ever ensure that a 20+ year old engine is in the condition you want it to be in.

But the logical option would be to buy a known working engine from a reliable seller. Put your lump to one side, pick up the replacement parts in dribs and drabs, and then one day restore your motor and put it back in the car.

You're turning a really simple problem into a pointlessly massive dilemma.
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:51 pm

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polsta
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:01 pm

leave it out rav ffs im just after some thoughts and advice here not a clown

i just need to come up with the best way to go and concider options, right now - any sort of bottom end re buid or thousands spent is a no go.

the car i can get, its not a really clean/perfect car as such, its got a few rot issues, few nice bits,but a very cracked dash and a few issues, to make nice will need a new rear outer on one side or both, some paint, its mot-able, but its a breaker/beater around in really, no one wants a 325 auto with them issues and its cheap enough and low milage and engines not had a hard life by the looks of it, driving and running- so makes a perfect engine to use

or its finding one from someone else, not hear it running or anything and just taking words for it, what if i go that way and something ends up wrong

as you say logical- put a new engine in, sort mine out over a year or 2 and have it turn in to a fully re built and re conditioned engine, when its ready remove the other, paint the engine bay and put it in, the cars not going anywhere i cant see myself ever selling it, so do it that way and see it as a temorary donor loan type engine with the long term goal in mind and keep the oem ethos

or, its trying to sort mine out somehow without major bottom end expense, if it is that, seems they are not really sure thats the thing , its not like i know 100% what the problem is, or exactly for me what the best route to take is ?
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:16 pm

Were pots 1,3 and 4 showing around 40 psi, or 140psi? :?

And, what condition are the bores in?

It may just be stuck piston rings, and some diesel or Redex left in the bores for a few days would loosen them up.
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polsta
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:22 pm

Speedtouch wrote:Were pots 1,3 and 4 showing around 40 psi, or 140psi? :?

And, what condition are the bores in?

It may just be stuck piston rings, and some diesel or Redex left in the bores for a few days would loosen them up.
im pretty sure he said in the 40s (not 140s) , rest at 170s , although il confirm it later im popping round there in a bit, i dont know if in saying "40s" he ment 140s or 40s

the bores looked ok, 1 of them has a bit of a score in it , another has an old wound some pitting on the top of the piston, where at some point in its life he said it looks like a spark plug end or something has came off and been bashed up and down at the top, but they look ok i think, he wasnt poinint out any obvious "look thats &&**ed" kind of issues saying its definatly no good

and on the head- no visibvle cracks or damage or anything it all looked ok

it does seem to me they are not quite sure about the bottom end either way if its good or not

if i do persists with my engine- what would be the steps and route to take with it ?

can it all be tested out as it is is in the car ? like you say reddex in the bores left for a couple of days ? anything else ? what about with the head ?

how much should it cost to re-seat the valves and new stem seals etc and recondition it ? he initialy said that was a good way to go then seemed to change mind after pricing it up saying its a bit too much of a gamble if theres bottom end trouble ?
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:27 pm

Considering its been sat a while it sounds like it could just be a stuck ring.

Personally considering the lengths you have gone to restoring the turd I would put it back in the garage, take the engine out and save up the pennies for a ground up rebuild. Do it yourself and save massively on labour if you are competent with spanners, the m20 is simple enough.

That way it's a matching numbers far with a spanking engine to match the shell. Might not get to drive it for a while but in the long run that doesn't really matter
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:31 pm

Even if you rebuild your bottom end there is a risk of metallic deposits stuck in your oil ways, the only guaranteed route is to use a known good bottom end.

It does sound like your head needs a refurb, I got mine all done inc all the work you mention form£280 from corries

Why don't you call b7 and ask him if he has that 325 engine for sale still and simply swap lumps

It's a weekends work then job's a good un

Unless you want to throw thousands for the sake of OEMness then that is what I would do

Get the engine tomorrow morning and have it fitted by the end of the weekend then get it all running next week

Rotten luck though, sory to hear this

It'll all be worth it in the end so chin up and don't diss the banter on here, keep broad shoulders as the advice and help on here is PRICELESS
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:31 pm

Grrrmachine wrote:But the logical option would be to buy a known working engine from a reliable seller. Put your lump to one side, pick up the replacement parts in dribs and drabs, and then one day restore your motor and put it back in the car.

You're turning a really simple problem into a pointlessly massive dilemma.
This^^^^
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:33 pm

Agree ^^^^^
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:40 pm

A temporary donor sounds like the way to go, at least you can enjoy the car in the mean time.

It will also give you the chance to show the original engine the same attention that has been lavished on the rest of the car, without the rush to get the car usable.

I would even consider building an alpina spec 2.5 while you was at it, if you're keeping the car then why not make the 2.5 a bit more special?

But obv this all depends on how much the original engine really needs a rebuild. Hope you get it sorted though enjoyed watching the build.
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polsta
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:44 pm

spoke to trev, he hasnt got that engine for sale a deposit was paid on it, can you confirm trev if reading this ?

hence the breaker option, hasstle but potentialy could claw back some money aswell and a few other spares, or find a buyer for the rolling shell for another project they may have, at least its an 83k 1 owner engine with all the history there, then get mine done over the long term and when its a spanking refurbed engine, swap it back in in a year or 2 .... if there are any reliable sellers there reading this with a proven reliable decent engine then lets hear it and the details ???? it also has to be within distance to collect from portsmouth etc

if its a stuck ring and a head refurb, i can live with that, ideally if possible ideal soloution is to just somehow get it back on the road with my engine in and not for mega bucks

thing is jim- thats probably the sort of price he was at , im at 150 at mo- plus the 280 odd refurb price, plus the new head gasket, plus the labour putting it all back together, he said youl be in at 6-700, without any bottom end , its a gamble, hence him asking me what i want to do

if there are ways to test and things to do to check mine, then i can do that or ask the questions on the bottom end side ?
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:52 pm

Get some pics up of the damage Karl
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polsta
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:01 pm

tha881 wrote:A temporary donor sounds like the way to go, at least you can enjoy the car in the mean time.

It will also give you the chance to show the original engine the same attention that has been lavished on the rest of the car, without the rush to get the car usable.

I would even consider building an alpina spec 2.5 while you was at it, if you're keeping the car then why not make the 2.5 a bit more special?

But obv this all depends on how much the original engine really needs a rebuild. Hope you get it sorted though enjoyed watching the build.
this is seeming the best option at the moment , i dont mind that, im not selling the car and cant see ever doing so, a year or 2 years with a temp donor engine whilst i re build the original and maybe like you say do something a bit nice with it, with the ultimate goal of nice car+nice engine to match, is not that bad a picture

its then weighing up- spending the money on an engine, transport to get it, or a pallet delivery, and putting all that trust in it and the seller, OR - having an 83k 1 owner pre face auto sat there in front of me, for not a great deal more, breaking it and selling off the other parts, if i took the time to do it in terms of everything sold, id end up getting that donor engine for nothing,and knowing the engine is good and driving around in it before i was taken out, i can drive it tomorrow if i want, also saves pallet and or transport and fuel issues

if theres anyone with a better engine/route to take that way, id like to hear it ? its not like i can find someone sat round the corner with a nice proven pre face lump there for 200-300 tomorrow that i can see


OR - its trying further with my lump to get to the bottom of it somehow ? which id like to explore if its not ££££
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:02 pm

Terrible luck, but I assume your "mate" is doing this at full rates. Any real mates of mine doing this the labour would be free.

Anyway, might be worth a PM to maggspower as he had a thread a while back about him refurbing cylinder heads for zoners and the prices seemed more than reasonable.
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:02 pm

Polsta. You don't NEED a second E30 - you have another vehicle. Don't butcher a car that YOU don't find desirable. Someone else may find it suits their needs.

You need to either fix or replace your engine, but my gut feeling is that you've spent SO much money on the detail of the rebuild that you'd regret putting any engine other than the working original in.
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polsta
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:03 pm

Rav335uk wrote:Get some pics up of the damage Karl
i should of took some pics, but- like above, there wasnt any damage to see, the head looked ok it was stripped down with the valves out etc , no "damage" no cracks or anything, which- is whats leading him to think bottom end, thats the dilema/gamble

on the block- just a very slight bit of a score in 1, and some pitting on top of a piston which was an old wound nothing to do with this, again no real damage to see ?

thats his dilema rav, hes really not sure, 4 of them there really not sure and nothings pointing to anything outright obvious, which is the problem hence asking me what do i want to do ??

recon the head, put it all back on , boom might be ok and £600 say and got a recon head to boot, but if its not.... thats the thing hes saying
Last edited by polsta on Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:04 pm

Maybe a new set of piston rings, big end bearings and main bearings would do the job then?
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:05 pm

I would be inclined to drop the sump and pull the pistons out for a look-see to see what the true state of affairs is with them, and maybe check the crank bearings while you're at it.
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polsta
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:07 pm

jimbom30cab wrote:Maybe a new set of piston rings, big end bearings and main bearings would do the job then?
thats an option, he said for that- block comes out, more labour, and investigasting it and seeing

any idea of a price to do that ? but can you do that without a re bore and new pistons and stuff ?
polsta
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:09 pm

Speedtouch wrote:I would be inclined to drop the sump and pull the pistons out for a look-see to see what the true state of affairs is with them, and maybe check the crank bearings while you're at it.
how long labour wise is that roughly ? i have a new sump gasket here, which was on the to do list at some point

i just need to come up with some sort of plan of action
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:15 pm

Shit the bed. You would think the tech 1 wouldn't be throwing the dummy out of the pram after all the TLC. Ungrateful wench! lol :mad:


Personally I would drop in another m20, even do a stroker build.

IF

The original engine means that much to you, rebuilt it on a engine stand but personally I wouldn't bother.

You said yourself this car wouldn't be a garage queen, you will be driving it.
Its not a sub 10,000 mile car or a concours contender.

Its almost 30 years old, no shame in a engine change.

Just my humble opinion! :cool:
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:17 pm

I have just scanned through the thread, apologies if I've missed anything.

You need to confirm the findings of the compression test. There seems to be some problems with the way things have been done on it. It is a tool to help diagnosis of problems. Before the head came off there should have been a squirt of oil down each spark plug hole, this would have told you if the cylinder was leaking past the bores or not. There is no way to find this out now the head is off :mad:

A leak down test would have told you exactly where the lack of compression was coming from.

Now the head will be rebuilt and this may not even be the problem, and you will only know when the head goes back on.

Your engine man has the gear, but does he know how to use it? I'm not trying to be funny, but he has now cost you money and hasn't identified the problem.
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:24 pm

Sorry to hear about your dramas after all that paedoing ! :(

On a positive note,I have an EXCELLENT pre facelift hi comp engine in a '87 convertible . It has had recent exhaust manifold gaskets, is quiet and runs like a dream. I have done a few hundred miles in it and I know it has no issues.

I want £300 for it complete with loom and manifolds ready to fit. I will give one month warranty. Obviously it can still be seen running as the car is still mostly complete.

I also have a good hi comp bottom end for £100.
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:25 pm

With the amount of money and effort that has gone into this car it would be a shame to throw any old engine in the hole. Rebuild the original engine!!
polsta
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:27 pm

im not too sure maggs, basicly- took the car there, he spent a few hours investigating the missfire and everything and said all seems fine, compression test shows 1,3,4, are low, what do you want us to do? we think its pointing to piston rings

but like you say- the heads came off, and ive still not got a "definate"

if you tell me the questions to ask, and even things to check and do, i can find out

i just need to come up with a definate plan of action to take on this
polsta
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:29 pm

pacerpete wrote:Sorry to hear about your dramas after all that paedoing ! :(

On a positive note,I have an EXCELLENT pre facelift hi comp engine in a '87 convertible . It has had recent exhaust manifold gaskets, is quiet and runs like a dream. I have done a few hundred miles in it and I know it has no issues.

I want £300 for it complete with loom and manifolds ready to fit. I will give one month warranty. Obviously it can still be seen running as the car is still mostly complete.

I also have a good hi comp bottom end for £100.
pete send me your number il give you a ring for a chat-

so on this guys- would you A - buy the whole engine ? (how many miles?) or B-£100 bottom end,and re con my head ?
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:31 pm

I would rebuild your engine.
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:31 pm

I may have missed it but:

Was the cambelt not replaced while it was laid up?
Did it not run fine before it was laid up?
It was only laid up for how long?

This sound to me like somethings happened between it being laid up and now.

I've left my car unstarted for a year and nothing has stuck in that time. Things do get sticky (valves / rings) after a significant number of years but not like 18 months.

My money here, is on valve issues. Was the cam timing right when they did the belt. Was it started after they did it to check it?

40 PSI????? thats very low and points to something very serious like a bent valve. The fact it's on a few cylinders as well?

If it was 140 PSI compared to 170PSI it would run with no issues. It may smoke a bit or burn a bit of oil but it would run!

My advice to carl is the following.

Get the car out of there ASAP and let someone who knows M20s to look at it.
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:36 pm

Buy the whole engine ( now )
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:40 pm

Buy peters engine

Put it in your car

Sort out your engine slowly and carefully

That's a very good price Pete especially with a warentee , a total bargain
polsta
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:42 pm

Pompey Council Massive wrote:Buy the whole engine ( now )
il have a chat with pete on the phone, weigh it up

but- its £300+ fuel and finding a truck, prob talking 350 all in to get home with that engine or bit more

or- buying a whole donor car, its got air con, chrome bumpers, some nice panels,glass, fogs, few nice bits of trim and other bits, a tech 1 front valance, bottle top alloys with nice tyres for a few hundred more, and 83k 1 owner and it being there
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Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:43 pm

polsta wrote:im not too sure maggs, basicly- took the car there, he spent a few hours investigating the missfire and everything and said all seems fine, compression test shows 1,3,4, are low, what do you want us to do? we think its pointing to piston rings

but like you say- the heads came off, and ive still not got a "definate"

if you tell me the questions to ask, and even things to check and do, i can find out

i just need to come up with a definate plan of action to take on this
While the head is still on, you have a good chance of pin pointing the compression leak, using the right tools and techniques.

You could always put a head gasket back on it and get the compression test or better a leak down test done again and properly.

I agree with trevor on getting your engine out of there, and to someone who knows what they are doing.
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