Alpina B3s wagon. Head off, brainwave re vanos

Discuss Non-E30 BMW's in here - No selling!

Moderator: martauto

DanThe
E30 Zone Team Member
E30 Zone Team Member
Posts: 28649
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Staffs

Post Mon May 27, 2013 11:14 pm

Jesus christ that vanos!! :eek: Looks like the nuts have come loose and the sprocket has worked its way forward? Take the cover/piston off the housing and see what the state of the bore is, could be ok to go again with some new bolts and seal. Its possible that exhaust cam has slipped, thats the same bad running problem I was hunting for weeks, but it wasnt half that bad!

Hit me up if you need anything :)
Simon13
The longest resto in the world !
Posts: 22697
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Camberley, Surrey don't u know

Post Tue May 28, 2013 9:48 am

theres a fair amount of adjustment with the exhaust sprocket so it could be that I guess.

TBH I thought to myself that replacing all the vanos bits and timing her back up properly would hopefully cure what ever was wrong. Along with the new gasket!
Andyboy
Alpina Colada
Posts: 12578
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:00 pm

Post Tue May 28, 2013 7:03 pm

I'd replace all the vanos stuff - the unit, sprockets etc. should have some stuff at work.
DanThe
E30 Zone Team Member
E30 Zone Team Member
Posts: 28649
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Staffs

Post Tue May 28, 2013 7:22 pm

Bear in mind that vanos gear has been sat in the cam gear since new, so swapping it with other randomly worn stuff is best avoided as much as possible
Simon13
The longest resto in the world !
Posts: 22697
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Camberley, Surrey don't u know

Post Tue May 28, 2013 8:16 pm

So both inlet sprockets? vanos unit, chain and other bits?


I ordered a headgasket today. £424+VAT :shock: the fact there are 3 in stock at Northampton tells you all you need to know about it! BMW GB never keep alpina bits in stock. Bar wheel badges and alpina scripts.

It was a rainy day so I've got a lot of running about done quick. Heads at the machine shop for a pressure test to be sure.


Image

These are the rear springs, I've dropped them off to be shot blasted and re powder coated. Seeing as that's an e36/46 favourite snapping rear springs and the no doubt huge cost or replacement alpina springs


Back to the vanos




Image

inside the unit. Looks ok to me but again I've nothing to compare




Image

You can see where this big washer has worn against the back of the unit. There is also a lot of play in this part of the unit. I guess its no there when the gear is engaged in the cam.



Image

Where the chain has worn on the bolts. Question is wheres all the swarf/shit gone...........I'm hoping for an oil filter rescue/oil pump filter save but we might need to peek the bottom end jorunals to be sure



Image

This the inlet sprocket, its all burred and knarly



Image

exhaust side sprocket, the teeth are worn uneven and they're getting a bit to spikey i think.


All ideas on a postcard to the usual address.
DanThe
E30 Zone Team Member
E30 Zone Team Member
Posts: 28649
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Staffs

Post Wed May 29, 2013 12:04 am

That vanos bore looks perfect, the play disappears once its engaged in the cam and the housing with a new seal.

The top sprockets are cheap, but depending on state id probably go as far as replacing the main drive sprockets/chain/tensioners too as you can only do it with the head off as you probably know
Coops90
E30 Zone Regular
E30 Zone Regular
Posts: 994
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:00 pm
Location: Sheffield

Post Wed May 29, 2013 5:36 pm

Mega jealous. Shame no satnav though.

What are the shift buttons on the steering wheel like to use on these?
Malachite uber alles
Simon13
The longest resto in the world !
Posts: 22697
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Camberley, Surrey don't u know

Post Wed May 29, 2013 5:39 pm

the switch tronic is a brilliant system and the buttons fall to hand if your in the mood for it.

I normally drive it in this mode all the time rather than normal auto.
powelly
E30 Zone Squatter
E30 Zone Squatter
Posts: 1649
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:00 pm
Location: On the scrap heap

Post Wed May 29, 2013 7:56 pm

I have flappy paddles on my Golf, I leave them alone.
Image Le Mans Classic 2006
darren_mk
E30 Zone Newbie
E30 Zone Newbie
Posts: 247
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:00 pm
Location: Northern Ireland

Post Wed May 29, 2013 8:07 pm

Great pics as usual
This could be a nice enough fix hopefully - fingers crossed for you!
Andyboy
Alpina Colada
Posts: 12578
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:00 pm

Post Thu May 30, 2013 8:45 pm

I's say the case hardening was faulty on that sprocket. The chain has eaten down into it, gone slack and chewed into the rest. I'd drop the sump, pull the front cover off and replace the main chain and tensioner. A secondhand sprocket will be okay but the Vanos unit will probably go again. The filter will have caught the particles.
Simon13
The longest resto in the world !
Posts: 22697
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Camberley, Surrey don't u know

Post Thu May 30, 2013 9:30 pm

main chain and guides are cheap I replaced those on my e36 if you remember

chain was £16 for jiwis and less than £45 for both guides which were febi bilstein.

I need to look up some prices on the other vanos.
Simon13
The longest resto in the world !
Posts: 22697
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Camberley, Surrey don't u know

Post Thu May 30, 2013 9:50 pm

Image

Potential brainwave..............

this pic is my e36 B3




Image


not the best but if you look in the first pic theres 3 M6 nuts holding the show together.

Where are they on this e46 pic? I never took any off. Theres non in the box I've put all the vanos/chain stuff in........

Could be my answer I think. Question is why? or has someone been forgetful? Not alpina surely!!



Image

I don't have a pic of what this should look like from my e36.... would help greatly here
scjimbo
E30 Zone Camper
E30 Zone Camper
Posts: 1249
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:00 pm
Location: Gloucester

Post Thu May 30, 2013 10:22 pm

It looks to me from your picture,that there could be the remainder of the studs in those locating dogs on the end of the vanos? It could have popped the heads off, although I wouldn't have thought there was much lateral load on them. The previous owner could have hung off the Spanner which may have caused failure of the studs.
mcbonio
E30 Zone Squatter
E30 Zone Squatter
Posts: 1868
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:00 pm

Post Thu May 30, 2013 10:42 pm

Madness, it looks like the whole vanos system has become misaligned and allowing various components to eat themselves. Highly entertaining read though. I mean that in a good way.! Hope you get it sorted chap, lovely motor.
DanThe
E30 Zone Team Member
E30 Zone Team Member
Posts: 28649
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Staffs

Post Thu May 30, 2013 10:50 pm

Simon13 wrote:Image

Potential brainwave..............

this pic is my e36 B3




Image


not the best but if you look in the first pic theres 3 M6 nuts holding the show together.

Where are they on this e46 pic? I never took any off. Theres non in the box I've put all the vanos/chain stuff in........

Could be my answer I think. Question is why? or has someone been forgetful? Not alpina surely!!



Image

I don't have a pic of what this should look like from my e36.... would help greatly here
DanThe wrote: Looks like the nuts have come loose and the sprocket has worked its way forward?
Simon13
The longest resto in the world !
Posts: 22697
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Camberley, Surrey don't u know

Post Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:01 pm

Its been a while but not because of lack of progress,


Image

Barrold kindly lent me this so I could get the sump off and have a looksee at the some of the shells see if its a mess in there also



Image

main end cap, all ok.......




Image

big end cap, worn as it be expected at the milege. But the front 2 had 1 score in each shell. The crank its self has no visible markings.



Image
Image

A lot of work to get this far, but after consulting the usuall suspects its probably best to remove the bottom end.

Get it all out and cleaned up and go from there. Not what I wanted but its got to be done really to be sure. Bores all look very healthy lots of honing visible on all, all the way round too. I'm not planning at this stage to fit new rings and a re hone/glaze bust. I wont swear by it as things can change!


So now I need to get a her rolling again as I need the engine crane, which the e30 is blocking in, along with my engine stand. I can shuffle it all about then!



Image

Image

F **kin grim ain't it. deepest joy, these were sad on these cars when they were 5 years old let alone now. The nuts had rusted to nothing




Image

I thought these rads bow at the bottom and blow up? This one is going from the top!



Image

I've TFR'd these with a strong mix and they are now a nice silver instead of the yellow staining from the salt up north, the budget isn't stretching to refurb on these yet!
I've bought 1 tyre and a rear needs a puncture repair I noticed today a nice nail in the middle




Image

rear springs rear shot blasted/powder coated



Image


new discs and pads too, cleaned up the calipers seals all ok. sorted hand brake, waxoyled the brake lines. I'd jet washed and cleaned out all the arches the other week




Image

new arm and bush for both sides




Image

All fitted, again with new discs and pads, plus a good clean up of the calipers moving bits. I checked the pistons on both sides and theres no corrosion past the seals. As sticky calipers are common on 330's ya?




Image

changed these 5mm allen key bolts out, that hold the abs/dsc sensor on. As they were grim and rusted. One snapped coming undone :( Just to help me later on if I get a sensor fault




Image

wheels back on, stripping front end down




Image

This has seen better days its like a biscuit! The air con system was gas tight though and blew cold. I've bought a new condenser from GSF as its generic e46 stuff





Image

ready to come out I hope, box is still on and prop disconnected



Image

the neighbours sigh with relief when they see the wheels back on
Rtaylor2208
E30 Zone Addict
E30 Zone Addict
Posts: 3004
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:00 pm
Location: Ayr, Ayrshire, Scotland

Post Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:10 am

Your a glutten for punishment Simon and have a rather tasty collection of pinas now. A great looking car, lets hope its not a bank breaker.
DanThe
E30 Zone Team Member
E30 Zone Team Member
Posts: 28649
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Staffs

Post Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:36 pm

Why take the engine out?
I think your making a mountain out of a molehill TBH, the engine is clean inside and has obviously had proper oil changes :?:
B7
E30 Zone Team Member
E30 Zone Team Member
Posts: 15846
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:00 pm
Location: Surrey / West Sussex

Post Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:07 am

Have you won the lottery Griffiths? Solid work brother!
B7's Motto. "If it's French, BURN IT!!!!!!"
Andyboy
Alpina Colada
Posts: 12578
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:00 pm

Post Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:38 am

DanThe wrote:Why take the engine out?
I think your making a mountain out of a molehill TBH, the engine is clean inside and has obviously had proper oil changes :?:
It's an illness!
Simon13
The longest resto in the world !
Posts: 22697
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Camberley, Surrey don't u know

Post Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:39 am

Yes it has, the engine came out for a clean up, as sh!t had got into the bottom end. Scored a few big end shells. damage to the oil pump cogs. Seemed the sensible thing was to strip and clean it. Fit some new big shells, new cog for the oil pump and reassemble. Main end shells look like new so I've left them be.

Cams are scored on main journals also. Theres a bit of wear on the bores, but time money is not on my side at the moment. Not the best but she'll go again well enough.

It will be apart in another 60,000 anyhow when the headgasket goes! the shells and pump will give the bottom end another good run.



Image

stripped block




Image

Heres the fault re vanos, standard bolt on the right, the left is what came off the car?




Image

the difference




Image

Image

Image

whatever it looked like originally obviously didn't hold this lot together securely and the whole lot had play in it so it could move forwards and grind on the vanos unit. In turn wearing the 2 sprockets and chain. You can see the uneven wear on the sprocket, the teeth are all sharp.

I'm sure with the correct parts and timed up properly it will ok again.
Simon13
The longest resto in the world !
Posts: 22697
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Camberley, Surrey don't u know

Post Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:47 pm

ok no update for a while but I've been trying my best to move it all on, the baby is now here but they are both asleep so here is my chance!


Image

right the engine came out, I've left that heavy box there its happy and out the way!

A quick jet wash of the bay has cleaned it up a treat, not done in this photo


I think I've worked out what went wrong now and how to fix it




Image

its all to do with these 3 bolts, you can see two types here, the fucked ones and the correct ones with the m6 nut on the end. my car didn't have any nuts?! why I don't know so the whole lot was moving back and forth.

The consequences of the swarf going around mill isn't great.



Image
Image
Image

a few of right and wrong as such.

onto the bottom end then.


Image
Image
Image

A few shots of the main bits, the crank is pretty tasty and, very small webs and its light, slugs are small and light along with the rods.

This is the ultimate 24v non M power bottom end, or a very exotic one as its all unique to this engine. Crank is used in the 3.3 version but the pistons are 3.4 only and 87mm.


This is where it get interesting or expensive..........

I inspected the shells. The main ends were mint, nearly zero wear to shells. Great.


Image

main ends, shes pretty clean inside, so much that you can still see the paint dab on these shells for the different classification. BMW use standard size shell from new, then either paint them white, yellow or green and they are ever so slightly different in size. 0.01 of a mm to keep the tolerances with the crank journals right.

A stock bmw engine uses a set as such so they are all the same colours. Not on this hand built beauty. Alpina obviously measure each journal and vary which colour shells they use. It all adds up in the end and shows the hand built nature of the engines.


Big ends not so, they were worn and there was scoring on a couple. Not good, the wear is expected at that milege and performance nature of the engine also so no surpise there



Image

Crank is ok and not needing a grind, so just a really good clean and blow out of the oil ways and shes good to go





Image

new big end shells, standard size



Image

an original big end shell, its gone dark grey indicating the wear, the cap end gets the harder time that this upper shell.



Onto the oil pump.....


Image

you see again some swarf has come up through the pump. The housing looked fine



Image

So a new gear and matching bit should restore any lost oil pressure.



Image

I've ended up having the block and head acid dipped cleaned to try and make sure all swarf it removed. Or anythats left. So the block needs painting again


Image

I've had the block re honed or glaze busted, the old honing was still visible still but there was some vertical scoring on the bores. This was the worst. Machine shop looked at it and declared it ok. No 6 pot picture here was the worst and you could feel it with your finger nail. Not good, but none of the scores come right to the top of the bores which is good. Meaning a total seal as such on the rings on the compression stroke


Now onto the piston rings.........alpina part number got me frightened as non of this was budgeted for but that's cars.

Stilling down the price was £108 per set. I need 6 sets........ :shock:


Image


Machine shop to the rescue, they deal with a German company called SM for their in house rebuilds they do. All they make is piston rings that's it.

I gave him old rings which were measured and he mentioned the pistons are more like something out of a race engine! the rings are very thin and exotic basically. Anyhow he measured them all up and rang to see if he could get them. The answer was yes and they confirmed these piston rings are only fitted to this engine! The 87mm bore size isn't an odd size but the thickness of the rings are being 1.2mm 1.5 and 1.2 irrc

Short of it yes they could supply for £38 per set! I bit there arm off and I sourced a full set for a third of the dealer £660 odd they'd want.

I know i'm going on but Alpina list only ONE piston size and rings for these engines. Theres NO over size rings are slugs listed. Meaning the bottom end is as far as it could be taken. No over boring if you block ends up damaged, or sleeving either I think.

So with some effort it can be done! So heart attack was avoided and the engine saved imo.

Onto the head now



Image

seats were in fab condition and lapped in nicely, as were the valves themselves. A good diet of super judging by the minimal carbon build up

My dads as always has given the head a re face. He took off 5 thou so nothing to worry that's just over the thickness of a human hair.

Again alpina don't list an over size gasket for heavily skimmed heads! More worry.

This is another issue I've looked into as the head gasket is a stupid price of £424 plus VAT. I've ordered one from BMW and it turned up in an elring box. My machine shop deal with elring, so I've got them on the case to see if I can get one like the rings and avoiding the sheer greed that BMW/Alpina have in their margins. So watch this space, they've ordered one in and its £60 plus VAT if its correct. I'm not holding my breath but worth a try?


Image

Valves all going back in, the valve springs are unique to this engine as are the camshafts.


Image

head built up ready to bolt down.



So its ended up being a full engine overhaul really. Not what I wanted or expected but that's cars. At least she should be good for another 100k if the gasket lasts! Plus i'll have to run it in now with new rings. But no.104 shall be good again!


I've not quite worked out how i'm going to build/fit the engine now my little girl has been born! but its the baby tram so even an hour a day will help
DanThe
E30 Zone Team Member
E30 Zone Team Member
Posts: 28649
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Staffs

Post Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:49 pm

Bit of a mission but if its full of swarf its the only way to go.

I found the best way to settle a new born is to leave them at home with their mother :)