Touring body shell weight?

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Mikey_Boy
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Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:49 pm

Folks,

Just bouncing some ideas around - as some of you know, I am planning to do a 'shell some time in the future for trackday use so for sh*ts and giggles, I thought a touring shell might be fun, especially with the S14 up front... Plan is to do a full strip out and get a welded in cage installed - either custom cages standard deal or something that looks like the Matter Group A stuff.. winkeye

The downside of this of course is weight - so, wonder how much more the Touring shell weighs compared to a 2 door shell?

Be great for transporting spare wheels to the track...! :thumb:

Also - any other advantages/disadvantages to the touring shell? Better/worse built than saloons? More/less rust? Spring rates - different for Touring?

All ideas/input/slagging off all gratefully received...

Cheers,
Mike
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Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:00 pm

I'm sure I read that the touring is more aerodynamic than the saloon (other than M3) and there is extra bracing in the rear quarters due to the lack of rear bulkhead. Whether that extra bracing will be a benefit when tied in with a cage I don't know.

Rear springs are touring specific due to the extra rear weight/loading capacity.
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Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:26 pm

jmc330i wrote:I'm sure I read
Not sure about what jmc330i posted, but I've read somewhere that the touring is the best balanced for handling out of the lot (2/4 door, cab & touring).

That said, don't take my word for it though!
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Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:34 pm

From the Wiki.


Features

To cope with load carrying, all Tourings are equipped with the 325i spec suspension of 51mm struts, front and rear disc brakes, and front and rear rollbars . Nearly all Tourings are equipped with ABS, but there are some early four cylinder cars without ABS.

The E30 Touring, along with the Cabriolet, outlasted the two and four door saloons as BMW swapped production over to the E36. The youngest Tourings on the road today are generally 1994 L reg. The last ones were built in February 1994.

In terms of reliability the E30 Touring benefits from the same strengths and suffers from the same weaknesses as the E30 saloons. Tourings have developed a reputation for possibly rusting less than other versions, but ironically their distinctive Tailgate is a noted rust spot, usually starting with the rubber seal beneath the rear window shrinking with age and trapping water in the channel it is designed to protect. These seals should be replaced before rust starts.

The load capacity of the Touring, while useful, is not generous. The floor plan is identical to the saloon and the rear hatch opening is restricted (possibly BMW were conservative in their attempts to retain rigidity) so although a Touring does have the useful ability to take long loads with the seats folded, it is hard to take advantage of the whole load area with a single item.

On the move, E30 Tourings have more weight over the rear wheels and have near 50:50 weight distribution which, while unable to change the underlying nature of the E30 trailing arm rear suspension, does give a more predictable rear setup than other versions with less weight on the rear wheels. This characteristic, coupled with the 325i spec suspension, makes 4 cylinder tourings ideal candidates for engine swaps to heavier engines which are sometimes criticised for causing understeer in E30 saloons.

Overall the Touring provides a more practical proposition as a small family car while losing none of the E30's sporting feel.
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jmc330i
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Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:10 pm

Rancid wrote:
jmc330i wrote:I'm sure I read
Not sure about what jmc330i posted
Neither am I tbh, but it was something I read in regards to using a touring or saloon in one of the BMW race series (the one that uses the 318i or 320i from memory). I forgot to mention the weight distribution, but that will change between 4 and 6 pot at a guess.
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Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:02 pm

Extra weight all high up at the back end of the car, isnt that a good enough reason to go for a 2 door Mike? :)
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Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:26 am

Thanks all... Good stuff so far and I get DanThe's point about weight high up at the back, plus... given I will be running a 4 pot, the overall weight distribution *might* be all out of whack compared to running an S5x or M5x...

I would lighten and weld the rear doors and put polycarb windows where I could, leaving most of the weight in the tailgate - struggling to find a lightweight tailgate (no surprise!)...

There is a stubborn part of me that is keen to do this, especially as 316 Tourings seem to be cheap... :D A Touring with a DTM carbon airbox bark is appealing...! winkeye

Given the only load I would be carrying is a spare set of track wheels (I like driving to and from the track) and the weight taken out of the back would mean I should get away with relatively normal trackday spring rates on coilovers...

Come on folks - talk me out of this!!! :mad:
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Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:50 am

Just buy an E36 turd and halve your cost and work load, you already have an E30 for track days!
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Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:14 pm

I love my track touring. Ideal for trackdays, take all your tyres, jack, toolbox, and tent in the back and of you go.

Best fun (if i manage) is overtaking e30/e36 saloons though :wink:

Go for it, it will be mad with a s14!!:

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Mikey_Boy
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Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:24 pm

Roof rails?? :D
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harry_p
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Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:17 pm

I do wonder how much extra weight there is in the bare shells.

It's likely that a bit of the tourings extra weight comes from two more windows and a bit more metal, but I expect just as much comes from the far better trimmed load area, and rear seat back which is going to need some sort of internal support unlike the simple foam pads of the saloons.

I would guess that completely stripped and properly lightened there wouldn't be that much difference between the two, although I get the point that a chunk of the weight you can't remove will be higher up than on a saloon.
cheers,

harry
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ThomasGTT
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Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:47 pm

Mikey_Boy wrote:Roof rails?? :D
Jep, for the skibox ;)
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Mikey_Boy
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Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:55 pm

^^^^^ Ski-box! This just gets better....! :thumb:

@harryp - Exactly my thoughts - I figured the bare shell can't be too much difference in terms of weight apart from the extra windows and a bit of extra metal as you rightly point out.

I know I am going to get shot down in flames for this, but it just *appears* to me that Tourings are a little less ragged compared to saloons/coupes so tend to be in better shape and a better prospect for a track project? Plus of course, it is a bit more unusual!

No doubt I will ultimately end up doing a 2 door shell, but I do like the Touring idea with an S14 carrying tools, jack and wheels... :mad:
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Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:29 am

Hmmmm, few things at work here.

The touring shell is the best aerodynamically of all the normal shells, this comes from an effect of the rear end that was replicated with the e30m3 shell, they share a rear end design known as the Kamm back.
This is a design where the rear end is truncated at roughly 50% of the rear profile area and is know to shed air in a similar manner to a vehicle with a fully tapered "teardrop" rear end.
Arguably the slope of the touring tailgate is better at producing this effect than the m3 stepped rear end/boot extension, however i think the m3 shell makes up for it else where.
Whit this in mind a diffused rear undertray could be made to really work on a touring due to the velocity of the air over the rear end.
The effects of this can be felt on the road with the touring suffering less overall lift and getting a couple of mpg more in the real world at motorway speeds.

Another thing that may play into your hands is weight distribution. A rear biased weight distribution is actually desirable on a racing car, this may sound backwards but its true and most notable in single seaters where there may be around 40/60 front/rear axle loads.
A rear bias achieves two things, firstly the loading of the driven wheels is better resulting in more traction in all conditions.
Secondly the breaking is significantly improved by being able to run about 50/50 bias (for around a 40/60 loading) as there is already more weight over the rear and as the load is transferred foreward the axle loads actually even up.
Combined result is better drive out of corners and later braking adding up to significantly reduced lap times.

Another benefit of the rearward weigh bias is the overall handling balance, however this is subjective and car specific.
It can result in initial understeer on turn in due to a light front end and very low front tyre loadings but i doubt an e30 could get enough rear bias to find this, a good example of this is how badly a touring will understeer when you stick several patio slabs in the back, can be a bit interesting.

Downsides to a rearward balance is that once inertia takes over that heavy rear end will swing out like a pendulum, think old 911, the touring does exhibit this to a certain extent in the way it keeps in line in a corner better than the saloon but swings out like a pig at the limit with less time to catch it.
Rear bias cars are much harder to drive than neutral or front bias ones and everything mentioned above only applies to rwd cars, fwd is another kettle of fish alltogether.

I think one of the biggest issues with driving e30s fast is actually the 50/50 balance, it leads to a situation where both power oversteer and lift off oversteer can be generated if ham fisted or unlucky and the front tends to want to push a lot when driving neutrally due to the way the e30 is set up (easy to feel when just tooling about and its slippery on a roundabout).
The ability of the car to be pushed into most handling situations leads to a car that requires a bit of care, where a more compromised balance would always tend to one direction and a driving style that avoids that situation can be developed the e30 could go either way and can always be in question.
I do think a less balanced car would actually be faster in most situations.

milliken and milliken's race car dynamics is the holy bible on this sort of thing if you want to dig in further and remember station wagons make better drag cars :)
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Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:42 am

This may be of interest to you Mike :)
http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=187869
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Mikey_Boy
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Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:40 pm

^^^^ this is all fantastic...! :D

Many thanks indeed - certainly a bit to think about for now - doesn't make the final decision on which bodyshell any easier, but I am leaning back towards the 2 door for now - a plan is starting to hatch... 8O
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Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:28 pm

HairyScreech wrote:milliken and milliken's race car dynamics is the holy bible on this sort of thing if you want to dig in further and remember station wagons make better drag cars :)
Ive got this book, and while its good, it only touches on basic principles, for the price I was expecting more detailed explanations and how to make use of them in a practical application.

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Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:29 pm

Mikey_Boy wrote:^^^^ this is all fantastic...! :D

Many thanks indeed - certainly a bit to think about for now - doesn't make the final decision on which bodyshell any easier, but I am leaning back towards the 2 door for now - a plan is starting to hatch... 8O
Mike, the touring is far too heavy, you wont like the result.

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Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:17 pm

Tourings are awesome. When they're stanced they look way better than a coupe!
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Mikey_Boy
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Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:18 pm

^^ Well that told me...! 8O

Every logical bone in my body is telling me 3 door (and no doubt that's where I will end up), but there is something stupidly ace about a Touring with an S14 in my mind...

Anyone out there running an S14 in a Touring shell...? :mad:
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Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:26 am

Love the touring as a toy, it has been very rewarding and its different. But I'm on the look out for an early shell again as I'm now board of it.
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Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:58 pm

Mikey_Boy wrote:^^ Well that told me...! 8O

Every logical bone in my body is telling me 3 door (and no doubt that's where I will end up), but there is something stupidly ace about a Touring with an S14 in my mind...

Anyone out there running an S14 in a Touring shell...? :mad:
Gutten parts in the US did a touring with S14 and bottle tops :cool:
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