m60b40 twin turbo single turbo ?

Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:29 pm

so i have the engine and box, and my e30. So i want to do the v8 conversion and i am thinking of going the turbo route with this setup..

so i was thinking and looking into twin turbo setups and my mind cme up with this ?

if i run it at low boost 7psi, could i get away without running megasquirt ?

could i run 2 garret t28 turbos of the sr20det engine ?

what sort of bhp can it run without going mad on internal work ?

i have people to help me with the exhaust side of things but will it fit into the e30 being twin turbo'd ?

i have seen a single turbo conversion and looks quite simple but is it ?

any light on this would be much appreciated thanks

Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:23 am

I know you can, on various engines, get away with going on stock management and people see 'imaginative' gains.

No matter how low the boost is, turbocharging a engine never designed to run boost is going to have issues

But if your going to all the effort of getting the V8 in the e30 and then the additional effort of two turbos in there, the exhaust work will be challenging, why not spend the extra and do it properly. As there wouldnt be much point in seeing 500 miles and it blowing is pants off.

Im not meaning to come across as an arsehole but its just my thoughts.

I can imagine alot of plumbing needed for a twin set up too, M60s run fairly hot as it is, temps need to be thought about, pipework to ic, oil cooler for temps again.

Superchargers are common, you can go and buy kits, look second hand, make your own brackets. The bottom pulley already has a space on it that you can utilize for a charger.

With a sc, you can see more a less 400hp, I know gains have said to be more in some cars but yet to be proven properly.
But most that are running 360-400bhp are turn key reliable motors

No matter what you read on the internet and hear from america, its never cheap.

You could run a stock management but it would probably drive like a dog and blow up, and the whole (well my) idea behind the V8 swap is reliability and cheap power gain

Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:34 am

http://www.driftworks.com/forum/driftin ... 62b44.html

Single turbo, but you can see the scale of the build

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh ... 626&page=3

another single here

Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:41 am

There is a Norwegian guy building S62 TT in E30 M3 shell, thread is flying around somewhere in the 'net.

In any case, as mentioned, plumbing all the required stuff in is, indeed, "challenging". With enough time and skills / money, for sure it can be made. Heat is an issue that needs to be taken care of seriously.

One could always try going the G-power route and mount the turbo(s) somewhere near rear axle. Not very convinced how it all works in reality, though.

What comes to engine management, the question is more on who is tuning the DME than if the DME is capable for handling the boosted engine. E.g. M60 original DME 3.3 is way more sophisticated and powerful than e.g. Megasquirt 1-2 (not 100% sure on the latest MS3 version, though).
Another advantages of original ECU's are that they use the original wiring and sensors, as well as can show and store error codes (for the whole car).

Just my 2 cents..

Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:11 pm

danthee30man wrote:so i have the engine and box, and my e30. So i want to do the v8 conversion and i am thinking of going the turbo route with this setup..

so i was thinking and looking into twin turbo setups and my mind cme up with this ?

if i run it at low boost 7psi, could i get away without running megasquirt ?

could i run 2 garret t28 turbos of the sr20det engine ?

what sort of bhp can it run without going mad on internal work ?

i have people to help me with the exhaust side of things but will it fit into the e30 being twin turbo'd ?

i have seen a single turbo conversion and looks quite simple but is it ?

any light on this would be much appreciated thanks

Any boost will require some injectors probably, this must be accounted for in the tuning of the original ecu, I´m not sure there is much support for live mapping M60 ecu´s in the UK, if there is, it´ll be rather expensive.

You could easily run the SR20DET turbos, they would suit for a nice 500hp setup with excellent low end torque

I think 450hp with colder plugs should be totally safe on the original engine or roughly 10psi

If V12s fit in e30´s with twin turbos then same applies to V8´s

I wouldn´t call a M60 turbo conversion in E30 simple.

Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:19 pm

Why would t you call it ? Also yes I have heard and seen they suffer with heat problems, but surely that can be overcome ??

Also how do you know there is t anyone who maps the v8s ? I'm asking not being cocky as I'm really really keen to push this forward and have help from a really good source Mnm engineering in strood.

I really don't want to run supercharge as I want the lag an the fun of turbos !!

So I think it's do able and all the input I can get will help, also does anyone know what injectors I may need ?? Thanks

Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:04 pm

fwiw a friend runs a muffler turbo setup on a vauxhall 3l v6. with the turbo sized appropriately it works just fine, lag is not really noticeable and intake temps are much lower.

Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:24 pm

danthee30man wrote:Why would t you call it ? Also yes I have heard and seen they suffer with heat problems, but surely that can be overcome ??

Also how do you know there is t anyone who maps the v8s ? I'm asking not being cocky as I'm really really keen to push this forward and have help from a really good source Mnm engineering in strood.

I really don't want to run supercharge as I want the lag an the fun of turbos !!

So I think it's do able and all the input I can get will help, also does anyone know what injectors I may need ?? Thanks

There is plenty of fabrication required to fit the engine and there isn´t much space aftewards for a turbo setup, therefor it´s not "EASY" but of course doable. Just needs the right person or people who are intuitive in solving problems by themselves.

I´m not saying notobdy can map them, it´s just not a popular engine in terms of OEM custom mapping as nobody in the UK has designed a supercharger kit from scratch and thusly gone through all the pain of highly modding a stock ecu. So even if you where to find someone, the mapping of the oem ecu might be lacking or problematic unless you pay up plenty for the mappers time. I´m not at all saying it can´t be done, just that the tuner would have to spend quite alot of time on it, and they don´t really like custom jobs as they don´t pay well.

I have mapped 3 of them on standalone and none of them have had any cooling problems, one had a supercharger

You can run any injector larger then probably 400cc to make sure you have plenty space, I´d get alot bigger just to be sure.

I reccomend you go for a aftermarket ecu, it would be way simpler. Then mapping is rather straight forward for your mapper.

Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:56 pm

My 2 cents...

Single turbo on a V8 just isn't worth it - the plumbing is a nightmare - best to go with 2 smaller turbos for better response AND easier plumbing and also a MUCH better torque response with better placed turbos in relation to the exhaust ports.

The twin turbo route has already been done - Cosworth did a 4.4 twin turbo BMW V8 for Bentley back in the day before it got swallowed up by Volkswagen. I was involved a wee bit on the 'mule' vehicle - a converted E39 540i auto which we put 518 badges on for a laugh. It basically went like stink at about 0.8 bar boost - about 510hp and 650+Nm if I recall correctly, running Garrett T28s. Clearly we had open Bosch ECUs and all that but you could easily get it running very well with Motec or Emerald...

Cooling IS going to be a problem with the confines of the E30 engine bay and getting a big enough intercooler is also going to be a problem at the front, but seeing as folks are getting S85s tucked under E30 bonnets these days, anything is possible within reason.

You must resize your injectors to cope with the extra airflow and think carefully about fuel flow rates for your fuel pump - both were marginal on the stock M6x engines.

The turbos would need to be 'top mounted' but if you are brave, you could mount them down by the gearbox - we did that for the first RS6s (again a Cosworth creation) but in an E30 that might be a problem...

Good luck!!

Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:22 am

Just a comment for Gunni and Mikey_boy regarding V12 and V10 swaps. As in those engines V-angle is 60 deg instead of 90 deg in V8, they leave "a lot" more space in the engine room than with a V8.

I'm in a middle of E30 V12 manual track-day build and it there is a lot more space in the engine bay altogether than in my V8 cabrio. Of course length-wise there are modifications required.

Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:07 am

^^^^ fair comment. A 90 degree V8 is always going to be a wide beastie - this is why the turbos need to be 'top mounted' up by the cam covers ideally.

The S85 is 60 degree? Really? A V10 with that angle will shake itself to bits surely unless it has balance shafts (too much weight I would think). 72 degree is more likely...

Anyhoo - having seen and worked on a twin turbo E39, it would be a squeeze in an E30 for sure, but not impossible....?

The debate continues!

Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:45 am

Mikey_Boy wrote:The S85 is 60 degree? Really? A V10 with that angle will shake itself to bits surely unless it has balance shafts (too much weight I would think). 72 degree is more likely...

Ach, my bad! It's not 60, but 72 degrees. Anyhow, relatively slim

Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:37 am

^^^^ Indeed the S85 is a super engine in terms of packaging...

Just thinking out loud - I would wonder in this instance whether an S6x might be a better bet for performance? 400hp in an E30 is always going to be interesting....!

Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:01 am

S62 is "easily" doable, but I doubt if stroking M62 would in reality give you similar performance figures for more-or-less same price (M62B46 as basis, S62 crank, high-compression pistons and some head-work).. ?

S65 is problematic as the air-box is so damn high - with standard hood it simply does not fit.

Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:28 pm

so after chatting to a few drifters, dan chapman and mike marshall its possible and they will be helping with a few bits..

so after chatting away i have the help for someone to do the ecu side of things so thats covered.. it will be possible to run them low boost and on stock internals.

it will be going to fast road conversions for the exhaust side of things as chapman said they are really good and there welding is top notch !

the only main issue we could really come across is keeping it cool, heat is the biggest issue i think were going to have.. so i need to find something big chunky but yet to fit into the e30 !

going to be a mental build and i cant wait till it starts to come together..

Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:07 am

Mishmoto do a z3 rad that is massive and goes in on tr stock mounts

http://www.mishimoto.co.uk/mishimoto-bm ... 99-02.html

Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:42 pm

How about water methanol injection to help keep check of cylinder temps? I have opted for a Devils Own kit on my E30 (M62B44 with 7psi ESS s/c kit and Emerald K6).

Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:22 am

SuperchargedV8Touring wrote:How about water methanol injection to help keep check of cylinder temps? I have opted for a Devils Own kit on my E30 (M62B44 with 7psi ESS s/c kit and Emerald K6).

Just out of curiosity, do you happen to have any pictures on the S/C install?

Following a friend doing a similar install and it'd be nice to see alternative solutions

Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:22 pm

Hi Jonsku, I have various pictures of the project, but none of the supercharger installed. There was one of it mounted, but with no pipework. I am hoping to have it all done sometime in February and will have loads of pictures then, if not before. I'll remember to load them onto the zone when I have them!

It's been a tight squeeze, even down to the space between the bonnet and the supercharger outlet pipe......