HELP!! SUPERCHARGING

[sideways_kyeway]

HELLO, I AM A NEWBIE TO THIS SITE AND REALLY NEED SOME INFO ON SUPERCHARGING MY 1986 325IS...... I AM NOT LOOKING FOR SILLY POWER AND WOULD IDEALLY LIKE TO RUN A REASONABLY LOW PSI FROM SOMETHING LIKE A MINI SUPERCHARGER, ANY IDEAS?
HELP!!!

[Turbo-Brown]

First off, pleeeease can you turn the caps lock off!

Next up, the mini charger will be too small I think.

Have a look in the thread called "Update" in this section. It's full of Lentec's supercharged project

[lentec]

Like alex said the mini charger is way too small even for low boost!
As ive found the biggest pulley you can fit on the m20 is 8" if thats only making 6psi and a fair bit of heat on my m90 how fast/hot will a mini m45 run?

Think this has all been posted before?

[sideways_kyeway]

What would be the best supercharger to go for?
thing is i am currently rebuilding the engine, and i am probably looking at around 230bhp when im finished. (not bad for NA M20 2.5)
This is the reason i asked about a smaller supercharger running low psi as i dont want too much more power...
Any ideas?

[lentec]

If your going the eaton route at least an m62 or m90 from a merc or gm!
The type with built in bypass will be best option.

Take it from me tho they are hard to find as most breakers wont split them for less than silly money!

Even at low boost the mini s/c IMO will have problems flowing enough air for a 2.5!
Have a look at this site
http://www.automotive.eaton.com/product ... argers.asp
They give all tech data about the full range

[Turbo-Brown]

Just out of interest, how are you obtaining this 230bhp?

If it's by the conventional means of hairy high lift on overlap cam etc then I would perhaps think twice about running forced induction as you'll most likely blow the inlet charge straight through the engine and into the exhaust where it'll doo naff all to make you any power.

Also, you'll presumably raised the compression ratio and mabey the rev limit to get to your 230bhp which limits the boost you can run, and increases the potential for the engine to consume air, which might mean running an even larger supercharger!

[glenn]

If your going the eaton route at least an m62 or m90 from a merc or gm!

lenny / alex / ant
just read some specs off the eaton website, what cars had the m90 fitted to them?

[Turbo-Brown]

Got half a feeling the Jag XKR has an M90 fitted

You're not thinking what I think you're thinking are you Glenn?!

Where would you put it!? You can't lose the throttle bodies!!

[glenn]

You're not thinking what I think you're thinking are you Glenn?!

Where would you put it!? You can't lose the throttle bodies!!

just throwing a few loose thoughts around at the moment.
any idea on dimensions of the m90? would it fit where the air-con used to be on the s62?

[Richy325iTouring]

Got half a feeling the Jag XKR has an M90 fitted

You're not thinking what I think you're thinking are you Glenn?!

Where would you put it!? You can't lose the throttle bodies!!

i think he is
omg
i want first drive
well 2nd obviously lol

[Turbo-Brown]

Quite big by the looks of it!



You sure an M90 would be up to it though, bearing in mind that you have 400bhp N/A and the XKR had 400bhp supercharged!

[lentec]

Im almost sure the jag had the m112

Glenn you could allways have it sticking out the hood if you can find some way of mounting it on top of your air box
And people say im

[sideways_kyeway]

Just out of interest, how are you obtaining this 230bhp

Admittedley these are just estimates, but i am going for the cam option....
When i bought the car (it came from my old mans best mate) it already had a scorpion exhaust system, kand n induction kit, and has been chipped as the rev range is higher with a limit of around 6900rpm.... It also had a lightened and balanced flywheel which he had done himself.
I have heard that the best cam to go for is a shrick so that is probably the way i'm going to go. I have a new cylinder head on order which will be ported, polished and gas flowed (old man is engineer so no problem), and i am looking at the possibility of a gen 2 induction kit or a pipercross viper kit..... At xmas i am buying the larger throttle body from the e30shop and the 6 branch stainless manifold and i will probably finish it off with a viper2 chip and remap from chippeduk who specialise in bmw e30's... (reported gains of 22hp on a standard 325is)
I am hoping for at least 220bhp as my mate has a 200sx s13 running 217.1bhp and hes really pissing me off putting down the old scool bruiser e30.....
what do you think, is this a good plan?
I need to beat that poxy nissan....

[Turbo-Brown]

Being absolutely honest, I don't think you're all that likely to be able to use a supercharger with an uprated N/A cam.

I also suspect that getting 88bhp/litre is a bit optimistic. Mabey worth posting in the tech help section for advice on what's possible.

[sideways_kyeway]

I also suspect that getting 88bhp/litre is a bit optimistic. Mabey worth posting in the tech help section for advice on what's possible.
_________________

Point taken, it just seemed that with standard power at 170bhp, 220 does not seem too far away.........

[Jon_Bmw]

Just out of interest, how are you obtaining this 230bhp

Admittedley these are just estimates, but i am going for the cam option....
When i bought the car (it came from my old mans best mate) it already had a scorpion exhaust system, kand n induction kit, and has been chipped as the rev range is higher with a limit of around 6900rpm.... It also had a lightened and balanced flywheel which he had done himself.
I have heard that the best cam to go for is a shrick so that is probably the way i'm going to go. I have a new cylinder head on order which will be ported, polished and gas flowed (old man is engineer so no problem), and i am looking at the possibility of a gen 2 induction kit or a pipercross viper kit..... At xmas i am buying the larger throttle body from the e30shop and the 6 branch stainless manifold and i will probably finish it off with a viper2 chip and remap from chippeduk who specialise in bmw e30's... (reported gains of 22hp on a standard 325is)
I am hoping for at least 220bhp as my mate has a 200sx s13 running 217.1bhp and hes really pissing me off putting down the old scool bruiser e30.....
what do you think, is this a good plan?
I need to beat that poxy nissan....

Similar to Mr brown, I don't think that using a N/A is a clever idea if you are thinking of boosting later.

Also if I'm pretty damn sure that all of the above alone will not get you anywhere near 220bhp. A very sorted 2.7 would be lucky to touch those figures(player 6's excluded-but his is much more than what you have mentioned) I think disapointing that it is you'll be closer to the stock figure of 171 bearing in mind this engine is 19 years old.

K&N induction kit-reported to lose bhp
Lightnened flywheel- no gain in bhp
Cam- might gain bhp but lose torque in lower ranges
Porting and polishing- This is a complicated one if you don't get the procedures exactly right you can actually lose bhp, from ruining the flow paths significantly. A lot of companies out there do this and then say the lump was underperforming before the port and polish.
Larger throttle body and 6 branch-an optimistic 10bhp i think
chippeduk chip-well not even going there

So bearing in mind the engine is nearly 20 years old and will have lost power in all those years I think you'll be lucky to even see 190bhp with all of that. But please prove me wrong.

As for the 200sx its almost definatly got a larger turbo than standard and we all know turbo cars go faster

[Turbo-Brown]

Alas 50bhp is quite a lot, like around 30%

If you want to get that easily then one of Ant's turbo installations will do it easily, but the cams used for tuning N/A engines are very different to those used for F/I

Think it's one of those things where you don't necessarily get the sum of all the parts as an increase in power. There's also the drivability to consider.

Making a vast generalisation, lumpy cams aren't necessarily all that good at making super fast road cars where the engine is often below their effective rev-range.

If I were you and if you've not already started work on the engine, I'd have a sit down and think about exactly what you want. N/A power or F/I. Then make a plan of action, go down your chosen route and most importantly, stick to your plan!

[Turbo-Brown]

chippeduk chip-well not even going there

[sideways_kyeway]

As for the 200sx its almost definatly got a larger turbo than standard and we all know turbo cars go faster

Funnily enough all that has been done to the 200sx is a chip and remap, half powerflow exhaust system and a k and n induction kit....
The turbo etc is all standard..... The 217 bhp was done on a rolling road just after the chip was put in... Bottom line i need more power than the nissan....

[greg325]

hi, ive tuned my engine up a little more than it allready was ( i did porting and resurfaced the cyl head to max, and got the comp ratios evened out in august ) i'm now at 189hp( 185 from 5000rpm till 7000 with a peak at 189 at 6500rpm. and 25mkg @ 4800rpm. only lost under 2000rpm. thogh, but i DONT have a insane cam but a torc cam , and LOADS of tuning done to the engine. ( new dyno chart coming soon ;) )
i'm sorry to say, ive never seen a 2L5 do over 200hp in NA without multi TB set, and ven there i knew one that did 205hp but had absolutly nothing under 35000rpm and that made it undrivable as a street car....


i got my hands on a M64 SLK comp , the same as someone here and thought id put in one my engine, only ive change my mind as i rather build a 2L7 with multi TB intake ...so if anynoe wants it it NEW never ever used, and complet with inlet and outlet pipes. electromagnetic pulley. pm me if interested . i really dont think i'll ever make it up with the comp as we working a turbo mod ( schnitzer 1 of 180 turbo kiit for E21...;) ) on an E30 and since its one of my best pall ill get to drive once in a while and NA is less a fuel pit


you want to beat that nissan ? stay NA , finish your 2L5 , tune it up and get the gasses ideal , and then get him to test vs you car...only DON't let him take you in low revs ads hes full of torc. take off in 3rd at 100kph mini 110 is best with that sort of mod, and take it out as he'll have turbo lag and if your set corectly you should at least put enough distance on step down to keep him behind a while or next to you ...( remeber it is a turbo engine at the basis and has the advantage of the size as 2L + turbo = 2*1.5 = 3 L size engine if set corectly.... here the nissan get blown out bi renault 21 2L turbo who keep up with M3 E36 3L with only 240hp but on the 2l engine the torc dlivrered by the turbo is even to a big block engine, dont let him take you in low revs! its all be your only chance.....power means nothing.....torc makes its all !

you cant really compare a NA and a turbo , and you cant modifie a tuned NA engine into a turbo engine without lossing most of the part that make the NA work.

and as said dont start 15 prject at a time, keep to one , and do it what ever your choice , you'll be satisfied as the difference between before and after are apreciable in both cases . remeber to think if you use it every day or not, and i you usually hit trafic jams , good luck

[racecar]

sideways_kyeway - i think your gonna be dissappointed by the power output of your m20 after mods. i built my 2.7 with a mate with the express intention of running an
eatom m90 blower after reading about lennie's project on here.

put my car on the rollers a month ago and went to down to surrey rolling road with expectations of 190ish bhp and strong torque. the car runs a conservative c:r of 9-1 as an m90 blower is planned over xmas break. i have ordered a megasquirt from ant - and look forward to dropping alot of the ml3.3 motronic rubbish in the bin very soon

current spec is:

325 head - v.lightly cleaned up on inlets
(another fully ported head due to be collected anytime now)
325 block decked by 50 thou for 9-1 c:r

balanced eta crank/rods - seriously lightened flywheel/black diamond clutch - early mk1 325 pistons
schrick 284/272 - bbtb - panel k&N - zone 2.7 chip on ancient ml3.3 motronic
full btb 6 branch system with single pipe twin silencer box

cost about Ԛ£1500 for the conversion and alot of me and my mate's time - bought most of stuff secondhand on the zone - and exhaust was a swap for some work

Anyway what were the figures? - 182 bhp + 185 lb/ft torque - so after all that work a very modest gain on horsepower!!

however it leads me to believe that my stock motor did not produce anything like 170 bhp - and the torque difference on the new motor is remarkable - did not dyno previous lump

ok it was built with low c:r for eaton - and the car is stripped out caged etc so is a bit lighter and is MUCH more fun to drive BUT
when i read about some of the high output high compression m20's such as Karan's, M5pilots, Jimbob's etc with 200 - 220 horse i am itching to put the
the new ported head and megasquirt on - but i still reckon i'll be shy of 200 with c:r of 9.1

i think it takes a lot of work to get power out of these 12 valve lumps N/A - unless you emulate player6 and spend some serious green and you cannot run much boost with c:r you need to get n/a power

Anyway i am off to run the engine on the zone rolling road day on sunday in portsmouth on another set of rollers - in exactly the same spec as it did on the surrey rollers - so it'll be interesting to see what it runs there. had hoped to have the new head ready - but looks v.unlikely now

if you do follow the SC route lennie reckons m90's are around Ԛ£450 now - i think he can help on pulleys etc - and i'll definitely be going to him for all this stuff aiming to capitalise on all his hard work!

as one of my mates said to me - "why have you spent all this time modding that old lump when you could have dropped an M3 straight six in for not much more time and dollar??" mmm.. don't have an immediate answer but it's kept me out of the pub for a few months - and the first run up the road with that blower whining should hopefully provide the answer...

[greg325]

excuse me , but how , can your 2L7 with a highe comp ratio or the same than my 2L5 we get the same power figures and i only like have 3 or 4 extra mods and that not even sure ....???
a type 2 engine has a 8.8:1 comp ration, the type 1 had 9.4:1 . ( already explains the BIG diff in specs of the 2 engines ) and yo lowered you rratio to 9 ...i decked my cyl head and got up to 9 so we whould be even ...so what the deal ? did you have to do a mod to the timing belt to get it on the mark with the head shorter ? are you sure your timing and everithing is well set ? i mean 2L7....and it does not seem to be a eta

[fuzzy]

bolt on a big turbo...you know you want to you cant beat that big kick up the arse you get when the boost kicks in

[kudeppihc]

chippeduk chip-well not even going there

Just to inform the masses, Jay mapped 2 zone members cars the past week, 1 318iS and 1 325i.
Both were tested on indipendant rolling roads and both without Jay being there.
The 318iS gave an increase of 18hp with only the chip change and the 325i gave a gain of 15hp with only the chip change.

The problem is, Jay did as he promised and got the power but the bosses here dont want you to see this, instead they deleted the thread and threatened the members with a ban should they post the results again.

Once again Jay proved himself and put his rep on the line yet there are still some people who wont accept it.
He is the cheapest and offers the best service so why are the people here still sharpening the knifes ?

[glenn]

gone and had a look under the bonnet this evening and realistically,
i dont think there's enough room under there for a supercharger.
there might be just enough room for a turbo where the air-con pump used to be, but even that might be a bit of a squeeze.
may-be i should stop being greedy. putting 400bhp to the road is
challenging and has it's moments.

[racecar]

excuse me , but how , can your 2L7 with a highe comp ratio or the same than my 2L5 we get the same power figures and i only like have 3 or 4 extra mods and that not even sure ....???
a type 2 engine has a 8.8:1 comp ration, the type 1 had 9.4:1 . ( already explains the BIG diff in specs of the 2 engines ) and yo lowered you rratio to 9 ...i decked my cyl head and got up to 9 so we whould be even ...so what the deal ? did you have to do a mod to the timing belt to get it on the mark with the head shorter ? are you sure your timing and everithing is well set ? i mean 2L7....and it does not seem to be a eta

firstly a rolling road figures are a just a guide and i am sure we both would get 2 different readings on 2 different sets of rollers

secondly - timing is fine - although have not bothered putting a vernier pulley on - going on different roller tomorrow - be astonished of power output is same on a different set of rollers

finally Glenn with 400bhp from your v8 - what on earth do you need more horse for m8!!!

[Jimbob]

racecar can you report back how you get on at the new rollers (and what ones), I've been to the Surrey one in my 2.7 and got a shade over 200bhp. If you've had the block decked then get a vernier pulley on there!! I'm also going the megasquirt through Ant, can't wait to ditch the current ECU and AFM


sideways_kyeway, you're looking at 180bhp at max mate. If you're looking at supercharger then I think you should consider the turbocharger route through Ant, there's a complete setup on the zone shop at the moment, and even with that you'll be looking at 250bhp(without having to upgrade loads of stuff!).

These cars aren't all BHP btw so don't get too hung up on it, just worry about getting it all done properly, even if the final BHP disappoints I'm sure you'll find the final drive when it's all done will feel great and you won't be disappointed.

Give us an estimate on what you wanna spend and we'll be able to help you further

[Ant]

let me tease you all with an excert from my dyno chart.

@ 3.2K rpms she makes 218.9 lbs/ft and 196.2 bhp I'll not reveal anymore than that though there has to be some mysteries between us all

[Andy335Touring]

Very nice Ant

[glenn]

@ 3.2K rpms she makes 218.9 lbs/ft and 196.2 bhp

that's strong

[Jon_Bmw]

Excellent Ant considering you have another 3000 rpm to go

[Ant]

those are the hard rpms to get

at the moment I'm a little lean off boost which is fine, but on boost my AFR is 10:1 safe.... but robbing me off some HP for sure, I've got another tuning session midweek , all day mapping should be fun, then another dyno visit to check at 1K 2K etc to get an overall impression of where I'm at

I may post the full dyno but I'd dont want "the mines bigger than yours" tendancy to creep in for now lets just say , she goes fine

[sideways_kyeway]

jimbob said

Give us an estimate on what you wanna spend and we'll be able to help you further

I have got around Ԛ£700 now but in jan another Ԛ£1000 is on the way due to sale of my current poxy fwd runaround an audi 80 coupe 2.3e....
So for that kind of green up front plus more through work what do you reckon the best option is?

[Jimbob]

OK, so Ԛ£1700.

Camshaft + uprated valve springs Ԛ£290 (Dbilas on German ebay)
6 branch BTB Ԛ£400 (Zone Shop)
MAF Ԛ£850 (Zone shop, labour inclusive)
ITG filter Ԛ£90
Big bore throttle body Ԛ£160

Total: Ԛ£1790

Take a look at this thread: http://www.e30zone.co.uk/modules.php?na ... ic&t=23451 - 190bhp from a 2.5

That's just a quick example of what could be done, bear in mind the labour involved if you can't do it all yourself (apart from MAF, thats part of the price).

Damn, I sound like Sal

[lentec]

Good news on the dyno then ant

Would be interesting to get mine on a dyno at some point!

Having problems putting power to the road now the belts staying on!
Just not sure how long the 215s on the rear are gonna last