Worlds longest Resto, my C2 2.7 19/3/18 Vent guage action

[e30topless]

bring back the woodruff keys now they are motorsport

[Demlotcrew]

No it's capped off......how are you helping topless?

interesting, so why would it be there if it is to be capped off ?

that's an S14 cam I fail to see how thats helping either, that's a completely different ball game

Please educate me Andrew, this is all new to me after fitting many,many M20 schrick/kent cams and using the dowel to locate the cam pulley,

I can safely say I have never once had a screw up using this method before, Having said that I have never seen 2 locating holes either on any M20 cam aftermarket or not ?

I firmly believe the part is at fault,

ok.. so there could have been a way around it by adding a Vernier which isn't needed here, and a little hindsight is a wonderfull thing,

but I'm taking simons side here..not schricks after all they are a respectable supplier who are supposed to know their game, sadly it seems not ...

Topless, the s14 cam is to show as an illustration compared to the blank, before > after nothing more. I guess my cap dig is too subtle for straight fitterz.

Every single schrick cam I have ever fitted has never timed up on the dowel hole to schrick specs, sure you can cut corners and fit it blindly, but that's the difference between gay and straight fitterz

Im taking Simons side too, I think the cam is to blame, BUT if Simon had followed the correct gay installation procedures he would have concluded the cam is faulty before the an slaughter of easy start brigade joined in. FWIW I told him several times on the phone and at Ace cafe when I first seen the cam, just like I said his head was worn and the oil pump was nackered.

[leeparkes]

The locating hole is there for a reason, If any company worth there weight are going to drill a locating hole they drill it in the correct place, ie TDC

Like this.



Imo Schrick have made a mistake.

[Demlotcrew]

Lee, TDC is referred to the crank not the camshaft.

[e30topless]

Every single schrick cam I have ever fitted has never timed up on the dowel hole to schrick specs, sure you can cut corners and fit it blindly, but that's the difference between gay and straight fitterz

is that for the S14 or M20 ?

FWIW I told him several times on the phone and at Ace cafe when I first seen the cam, .

the best advice you could have given him at that point if you knew better, is for him to send it back and demand one up to the job before he went any further,

and not random shite like this...

So if the cam was 180º out and running on the exhaust stroke first, Simon could have simply changed the ignition leads over from 1 - 5 - 3 - 6 - 2 - 4 to 4 - 2 - 6 - 3 - 5 - 1 (i think) and it would have ran!

If the Crank was at TDC and Simon rotated the cam clockwise after it had been 180º advanced it would have most certainly pushed the valves on to the pistons.

Andrew

so you knew the cam timing may be at fault before it was fitted but suggested the firing order could be changed to limp/force it into running ? is that what gay fitterz do ?

it would have saved Simon 10 pages of shite on his thread and a lot of heartache/hard earned cash....

[B7]

Lee, TDC is referred to the crank not the camshaft.

And for an engine to be at TDC when built, the cam has to be in a certain (read correct) position? Located with a dowl or a woodruff key? Which would require the position of that dowl / woodruff key to be int the correct place.

If Shrick have supplied a cam with the location hole different from a standard cam (or indeed, their previously supplied cams like the one in the C2 touring), then I'd expect them to stick a great big f*** off warning in the box stating "A vernier pulley must be used with this item".


None of this is helping Si. It's filling his thread with pointless shite. The incident has happened, end of. Lets see what Shrick and Auto-mac come up with.

[Demlotcrew]

Every single schrick cam I have ever fitted has never timed up on the dowel hole to schrick specs, sure you can cut corners and fit it blindly, but that's the difference between gay and straight fitterz

is that for the S14 or M20 ?

FWIW I told him several times on the phone and at Ace cafe when I first seen the cam, .

the best advice you could have given him at that point if you knew better, is for him to send it back and demand one up to the job before he went any further,

and not random shite like this...

So if the cam was 180º out and running on the exhaust stroke first, Simon could have simply changed the ignition leads over from 1 - 5 - 3 - 6 - 2 - 4 to 4 - 2 - 6 - 3 - 5 - 1 (i think) and it would have ran!

If the Crank was at TDC and Simon rotated the cam clockwise after it had been 180º advanced it would have most certainly pushed the valves on to the pistons.

Andrew

so you knew the cam timing may be at fault before it was fitted but suggested the firing order could be changed to limp/force it into running ? is that what gay fitterz do ?

it would have saved Simon 10 pages of shite on his thread and a lot of heartache/hard earned cash....

Topless i wrote that after Barry had been to confirm the engine was correctly timed up! And its not shit, its very plausible to correct the 180º out ignition timing when its governed by a flange from the camp shaft.

If I recall, I also mentioned that fact that the capped hole is not exactly 180º opposite, its also smaller in diameter and im surprised the dowel even fitted!

S14, M20 or S50 it doesnt matter the basic principles are all the same.

[bss325i]

Yep, I confirmed the timing marks were lined up and at that point I didn't even know that the cam had two bloody holes in it!

You are doing yourself no favours on this thread Andrew.

[Demlotcrew]

Thank you Barry.

[jmpwr]

Can we have predictions on the outcome?

Having read Schricks catalogue and installation instructions.

Locating hole in the incorrect position = money back or replacement (backed up by consumer law)

Hole in the same position as every other BMW M20 camshaft part number 840-00 = No refund or exchange

I think if what Simon has shown is accurate then he will receive a refund or replacement.

[Demlotcrew]

Taken from the Schrick Catalogue page 2.

"General note
All products in this catalog (except advertising material) are only available through the auto- motors trade.
This catalog supersedes all previous catalogs. Part specifications and prices subject to change.
We may change technical specifications of our products without notice. Shipments back to us will only be accepted if we agreed before and in suitable, protective packaging. We will credit the invoiced amount -15% referring to the valid catalog price. Products which reach us will not be accepted if they were modified or have damages. This catalog is valid from 01.11.2010"

Andrew

[jmpwr]

So I take it from your reply

That by putting that into their catalogue then they are completly covered against all changes no matter what they are and if the product does not work without additional components that is down to the customer to find out when they have purchased the item.

I think you will find that is why you have consumer law. It is to protect consumers. The product must be fit for purpose.

You seem to be suggesting that your "friend" should not receice a refund or replacement.

My point was to see what people felt on the issue of whether there was a valid case or not.


My view is clear from my previous post.

Your view is not clear.

[Demlotcrew]

That by putting that into their catalogue then they are completely covered against all changes no matter what they are and if the product does not work without additional components that is down to the customer to find out when they have purchased the item.

Absolutely, that is their right as a manufacturer. What exactly is the Consumer Law going to do in this case?

Schrick will not mess around, if the camshaft up on inspection is indeed at fault, they will replace it no questions asked, if this is the outcome, Simon should also press for compensation on the other parts of the engine. My "view" is that because installation procedures outlined in the installation instructions that YOU yourself linked to and I have been trying to make a point about all along were not followed, and I quote;

Note: It is not a sufficient to turn over the engine by hand. All clearances must be measured!

What do I know......

[jmpwr]

It is good that you stated your view.

I posted the installation instructions so that people could view them. The common male practice of ignoring them is not helpful.

We agree on the incorrect fitting and as I said previously it would be a difficult case to win in view of not following the instructions.

We also agree on the replacement of the cam.

When you go to court there is "statutory law" and then common law or Judges Law.

The Judge is there to see fair play. That is why people walk free from court. You make your case and it is judged.

A manufacturer can put what they like but it is not the end of it. In the case of the camshaft there was a major change and the purchaser should have been informed- that is in the law.

A key point is that all cams made after "Simons" cam would have to be the same specification. If they are not then his is a one off or FAULTY!

What is in schricks catalogue is a statement.

It is like a notice that says the owner is not liable. It is just a notice, it has nothing to do with a law. It is there to discourage claims.

I hope that my points are clear and logical as they are only to help in helping to get the correct outcome.

[Demlotcrew]

Yes its only a statement and not their terms and conditions of trade which as a minimum would comply with the EU and Domestic Statutory Laws.

Again my point was too subtle, the cam could be viewed as to have been modified and damaged as the cap on the second hole has been pushed in, I hope for my "friends" sake this does not come under their umbrella term of damage or modification.

[Andyboy]

Yep, I confirmed the timing marks were lined up and at that point I didn't even know that the cam had two bloody holes in it!

I thought this was more to do with the non starting than the noise the poor engine made? TDC, No.1 cylinder valves closed, rotor arm pointing to No.1 electrode and other such basics.


As an aside, I'm not sure if Schrick even do a vernier for an M20? They do them for VAG stuff though. My old white C1 2.3 (with a Griffin 2.7) had both a lumpy Schrick and a vernier, no idea who's it was though.

[jmpwr]

As to your subltle point.

It is very clear what was done to the camshaft re the second hole. As I suggested in an earlier post an explanation re the blanked hole being pushed in.

I also understand the role of "devil's advocate"

[Coops90]

Fuck me this is boring.

[bss325i]

Yep, I confirmed the timing marks were lined up and at that point I didn't even know that the cam had two bloody holes in it!

I thought this was more to do with the non starting than the noise the poor engine made? TDC, No.1 cylinder valves closed, rotor arm pointing to No.1 electrode and other such basics.

Correct. I just went over all he basics like spark, power to the injectors, cam and crank timing marks along with rotor arm position.

It was then that Simon dropped the bombshell that the cam had two holes after I said the cam should be right as it can only go on one way ie one hole for the sprocket!

I then told him to remove the cam sprocket on the touring to check if it were the same of which he found it wasn't ie one hole.

[winx]

**** me there are some bell ends around

[Demlotcrew]

**** me there are some bell ends around

Tell me about it

[Dezzy]

**** me there are some bell ends around

Tell me about it

Surely no one has to tell you about it!

[Steve]

Come on guys agree to disagree, life is too short !

[DanThe]

**** me there are some bell ends around

Tell me about it

Surely no one has to tell you about it!

I thought you already did Dezzy







Any news Simon?

[Simon13]

No it was only posted on tues. bottom end is nearly ready to go again

[reggid]

IMO any time piston to valve contact occurs is the engine builders/assemblers fault unless something breaks when it shouldn’t e.g. timing belt.
If someone does not check piston to valve contact and it happens during operation all the cam manufacturer should do is provide a free replacement cam if the cam is at fault/out of spec.
These things should always be thoroughly checked before cranking as it will highlight any problems. If through checking during assembly if it is found that piston to valve contact occurs then the cause should be determined and if the cam is out of spec then should be replaced by the manufacturer.
I bought a Catcams M20 cam and setup a mock head at TDC and the grind was way off. I sent an email to Catcams with photos (or whoever i got it from) and Catcams agreed they were at fault and sent me a new one (they didn't even ask for dodgy cam back). They did explain that they had commissioned a new machine and they had some setup issues.
In this case I would have plotted out the valve lift vs crank angle to verify how the curve came out against the cam card and this would should if something was wrong and be proof.
I also won’t ever be fitting cams without plotting the lobes to see what the valve lift vs crank angle curve actually looks there is alot of smoke and mirrors in the specs cam manufacturers use. Also checking piston to valve clearance is a must with a performance cam.

From my experience measuring out cams OEM, Schrick, Catcam, Dbilas the dowel should be pretty close but usually there is a few degrees of advance built in so it won’t be spot on.

[Jhonno]

What's the craic Si? Any news?

[Simon13]

No its been with schrick over a week now, it went recorded.

[Simon13]

I've finally had a reply from Schrick via auto mac. And guess what?? they say theres nothing wrong with it and i caused the damage. Using the wrong hole. I wasn't disputing that!! Its THEIR hole which is wrong I guess they think the lobes have been machined correctly and f**k the timing holes on the end of the camshaft. I didn't send it back as we know to dispute the damage on my engine as i caused it of my own accord.

There is something amiss here and i'm getting shafted by a big company now i feel.


They're going to check the cam for damage and advice about cost of repair/replacement

auto mac are exploring options with schrick for a gesture of goodwill. - yeah give me a cam thats correct



I think i'll just ask they post it back and i'll buy a vernier pulley. There is a very good machine shop/ race/road engine builders near me. I've spoken to them and if i take the engine over with all the bits they will "dial" the cam in so its correctly timed and opening at the optimum time. So in theory i'll get the maximum benefit of the cam bar ECU limitations of the standard alpina mapping

I'm a tad p!ssed

[Jos]

wtf!

Neither hole was correct?! What side are Auto Mac on?

[Simon13]

we all know that as the photos don't lie

[B7]

Mmmmmm. That's not good in anyway. Has neil not challenged their reply at all? As the supplier.

[Simon13]

Doesn't seem to no.

[BenHar]

we all know that as the photos don't lie

Can you put the photos that show that both holes were wrong together in one post for clarity?

If you've got that evidence I don't see how they can argue.

Maybe threaten them with the Small Claims Court?

Ben

[Andyboy]

Maybe threaten them with the Small Claims Court?

Ben

Good luck with that.

Swallow the pill, refit the cam with a vernier and vow to never, ever buy anything Schrick again. A lot of bad publicity been generated here over this.