Windows not working

[eddie124]

Hi all,

I've recently got myself another Touring to play with, and I'm going through it as it's been sitting for a couple of years.

When I got it, the windows were working, but now they don't. I don't think I touched anything on this circuit, but there's no current getting to them.

Here's the symptoms:

- Fuses 28 and 17 are fine;
- Relay K5 seems ok, and I tried bridging terminals 30 and 87;
- No current gets to the circuit breaker (square button by the gearlever);
- Sunroof is working (though it's sticking).

If I remember the diagram correctly, the sunroof should be in the same circuit, so why are the windows not getting any juice? Any suggestions are most welcome.

Cheers, Eddie

[Brianmoooore]

Does the sunroof act as it should, ignoring the sticking - work with the ignition on or with the ignition off and a front door open?

[eddie124]

Hi Brian,

Yes, it appears to be working as it should.

I have, however, just noticed the flexible sleeve connecting the driver's door to the A-pillar has its rubber boot loose from the body, and there's a thin black wire in there that's cut. Don't know if there's a corresponding bit inside the sleeve, but there's a bit coming off the A-pillar connector.

Also, I tried feeding the plug on the circuit breaker with 12V and, while the switches all light up, I still can't get the windows to move.

The sunroof switch lights up normally, but the window switches don't.

Any ideas on what's going on?

Cheers, Eddie

[Brianmoooore]

Anything I describe is for a RH drive E30, so if your steering wheel is on the wrong side, you'll have to 'adjust' accordingly.
Behind the LH side of the glove box is a 5 pin relay, usually blue, that has a blue/green wire coming from it, that feeds the sunroof. Coming from this wire is another short blue/green wire with a single pole connector on the end of it. The wire that feeds the windows circuit breaker should be plugged into this.
If feeding the the circuit breaker with 12 volts makes the switches light up, but the windows still not work, then it seems you have (at least) two faults!
With the 12 volt feed in place, do the switch lights go out when you try to work a window?
Sounds like there's been some bodging going on with the pillar socket, but the window wires aren't normally affected. Central locking wires are the first to corrode, followed by mirror wires.
One possibility is that your car has dealer fitted, rather than factory fitted electric windows, and I'm afraid these aren't good news. Do you have blanking plugs on the doorcards where a manual window winder once was? Do the window switches have flat or round pins?

[eddie124]

When I tried working the windows with the feed in place they seemed to dim a bit.

I'll have a look round the switches and the relay, and get back to you. I did hear the relay clicking in when the door jamb switch gets triggered, as I got the trim panel off to get it repaired because it was loose.

I do suspect there's a lot of later additions to this Touring, I just had a word with a friend who's also an E30 enthusiast and he suspects that my leather seats were not original to my wagon as they should have been grey, not black, according to him.

The door cards have a rectangular piece of trim glued on, so yes, I do suspect this might have something to do with the windows retrofit.

[eddie124]

Well, here's the deal:

The relay is there, it's working, and there's 12V on the wire coming off it, measured at the single connector. Still no windows moving.

The switches have flat pins on their connections, at least the ones I got out.

Is there any possibility that the alarm has anything to do with this? There's an old Gemini alarm fitted, with remote control and that locks and unlocks the doors. There are two buttons on the alarm remotes that I can't fathom what their function might be, only the third button seems to do anything, this is the one used to lock/unlock, and also the one that disables the alarm as you turn on the ignition after it's been a while since you opened the car.

I suspected this could be the culprit, but tracing that wire coming off the relay, it appears to go straight into the side panel, so it hasn't been apparently messed with... any further ideas? How can I get these things working, or at least try? Got to love the simplicity of manual windows...

Cheers, Eddie

[Brianmoooore]

Well, here's the deal:

The relay is there, it's working, and there's 12V on the wire coming off it, measured at the single connector. Still no windows moving.

Is there a green/blue wire plugged into the socket on the short fly lead? The other end of it should be one of the two wires plugged onto the windows circuit breaker.
Made a mistake in my earlier post (been playing around with too much E39 electrics!), re the question about the switch pins. I should have asked are they flat pins in a straight row, or flat pins dotted around?

[eddie124]

Yes, there's a blue/green wire coming out of the relay to a single connector, which is wired into a single blue/green wire, and that goes into the side panel, I assume it should be the one going into the circuit breaker. That one, when measured, gave 12V with the relay triggered, as it should, so maybe there's a break somewhere along the way to the breaker on the console.

The switches looks pretty much like the ones on my previous Touring, i.e., there are flat pins laid out all around the interface with the plug, they're not in line.

I'm starting to suspect this is a bitsa, that started out with a basic spec and was up-specced with bits transferred from another car. The foglights look to have been put in place but aren't working, and the leather seats, as stated above, don't appear to have been original to it either.

As far as common faults go, what can prevent all windows from working? I'm going to try a direct connection from the relay to the breaker today, see what happens.

[eddie124]

Brian,

I did the bypass and this got the switches lit, but only the back ones. I didn't notice the front ones getting lit up, so something is definitely amiss. Also, if I try pressing the buttons, nothing happens, and the rear ones (which did light up) dim quite visibly.

One other thing I noticed is there's a single blue/green wire coming off the relay. If I undo that one to try the bypass to the window circuit breaker as I did, the sunroof is not getting current, so that one feeds the sunroof.

I think the best course of action is to trace all the circuit from scratch, as there is bound to be something basic at fault here.

And to think I felt this was going to be an easy recomissioning... it's turning into a small restoration!

Cheers, Eddie

[eddie124]

Well, here's a (rather large) update:

The window wiring was all messed up by the alarm setup. Every single switch on the console around the gearlever had one wire cut and spliced into the alarm, and every single connection was made in such a way that I wonder how much of a professional the (insert very depreciative word here) who made the installation was.

I ended up redoing the whole connections properly according to what should be the way they came off the factory, and removed the whole alarm setup as it was peeving me beyond reasonable limits. There's still an issue as it's still not working properly. Here are the new symptoms:

- Front right window works fine up and down;
- Front left window only goes down, not up (no signal at all);
- Rear windows don't move, but both respond (dimming at switches, small click inside door from motors).

This is all with a live feed rigged to the breaker, as I still haven't got power on the blue/green wire. I tried powering the motors direct from the terminals and they worked fine, so the problem is in the supply side of the wiring.

I tested the ground connections (brown wires) and they all appear to be ok, so I suspect something is amiss in the power supply wiring. Where do these wires spread out? I mean, where does the single wire from the breaker turn into the 4 separate lines going into each switch?

There's still a few issues with the underdash wiring after yanking the whole alarm installation out, but I think they're mostly sussed by now, just the central locking to go, and I think I know where the problem is.

Cheers, Eddie

[Brianmoooore]

That must have been a 'total closure' system of some kind.
Switches can be faulty (they collect dirt facing up), so try swapping the front left and right switches over as a test.
The switches on the rear door cards must be in full working order for the rear windows to work, even from the switches on the console.
Switches are easy to dismantle, and usually a good clean up will bring them back to full and reliable working order.

[eddie124]

I did suspect that the switches themselves could be playing up, but I ran out of time for playing with the stuff and didn't get round to trying a swap.

What do you recommend for a good cleanup of their internals?

Cheers, Eddie

[daimlerman]

Switch cleaner...(groan now!)

[eddie124]

Hehehe!

Well, at least for the front ones I can tell you it's not needed. I've just gone into the garage as I was out in the garden and I tried swapping them over. And because the symptoms remained, I had a good look at the plug, and realised that one of the grounds had been popped into the wrong terminal slot. It was one of those "Duuuh!" moments...

With the plug back to form, it worked brilliantly, so now I've got at least the front windows working properly... I'm definitely pleased with that. I'll take my time and have a good look round the rear setup.

I'm suspecting it's not the switches that are at fault here, at least not the front ones. In fact, I'm starting to suspect the rear windows themselves might be sticking as the car's been sitting for some 2 years now.

I'm itching to get this damn thing sorted, I can't wait to get it inspected and back on the road!

Cheers, Eddie

[Brianmoooore]

Take the rear door cards off, unplug the motors, and power them directly from a 12 volt battery.

[eddie124]

Silly question time again:

I've been a bit puzzled by the two blue/green wires found under the steering column (LHD), it seems only one came from the relay itself, the other doesn't appear to have any connection to this circuit. Am I right? Both have single-pole connectors in roughly the same place.

I tried measuring the resistance on the wire to the circuit breaker, and it came to nought, so the wire itself is passing current, but there's a loss somewhere along the way as from the 12V that leave the relay, only 1.75 reach the breaker!

My temporary fix was to slice a new piece of wire directly to the breaker, but as I did this, the sunroof quit working. The switch lights up, but doesn't do anything. What the hell is going on here? Any ideas, Brian?

One other question I need to ask relates to the central locking. Where do the alarm setups usually rig a connection to it? I have a few wires left dangling from the extraction of that blasted thing, and the only other issue left to sort is the locking circuit. I can hear some whine coming from inside the car when I try to lock it, but no servo motors get actuated, so I dare not mess with it like this, haven't tried again. It worked fine before the alarm got ripped out, so there's still that to fix.

Any help is most welcome!

Cheers, Eddie

[eddie124]

I was right about the rear windows... I've now got the car inspected (the portuguese equivalent of the british MOT test), and I've just been out doing the school run for the first time in it. When I got home I tried them and the rear right one already opened, a bit sluggish at first but it's getting there. The left one still won't play, but I'll give it a few days to see if it wakes up on its own too.

Any ideas about the other questions above?

Cheers, Eddie