the m20 developement thread. Some progress and a new lump.

Moderator: martauto

User avatar
DoctorDrift
E30 Zone Newbie
E30 Zone Newbie
Posts: 86
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:00 pm

Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:57 pm

Wow screech what a tread and what diligent work on the flowbench. Respect!

Im very interested to say the least. Due to class regs i will have to stay with my standard bottom end plus some lightening/balancing and a refresh so cant stroke my engine.

A lot of this threads content is pretty complicated to say the least but from what i understand the 885 ports are fine to flow enough for 230ish bhp? but it needs bigger inlet vavles eg 42/43mm as well as a bit of work on the valve seat/guide area?

I have been emailing Rich from fritz bits and he said to not worry about the actual ports but like you have discovered increase the valve size and work the valve seat/guide. Which aslo seems reasonably straightforward for the DIY enthusiast :D always fancied a go at porting! he also seems to think its the induction which makes or brakes m20 race engine. He reckons with the above mods and webers or throttle bodies i should easily see 230bhp and about 220ish ft/lbs torque!

Does that sound reasonable?

If anything i would like to retain the standard inlet manifold though with standalone management. Earlier you said it should be good enough to flow 250bhp didnt you based on your flow work? If thats the case surely i dont need expensive throttle bodies.

This is very exciting and i hope my excitement isnt clouding my judgment but from my various research/your research.... with not a lot of money for some head mods, a decent cam and standalone management we could see 230bhp/220ish ft/lbs torque?!
skipunda
E30 Zone Team Member
E30 Zone Team Member
Posts: 5672
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:00 pm
Location: Cornwall/Plymouth

Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:20 pm

Any updates for us, master?
Chris
HairyScreech
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Posts: 6265
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:00 pm

Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:07 am

masterbator perhaps. :mad:

a little bit, i have some 50mm nylon bar to make some test valve seats out of and ill be booking the workshop time to do it tomorrow. (restricted machine shop access atm.)

iv two sectioned heads here and a few observations, also working on cad models of the ports for CFD analysis after chrimbo probably.

been spending a lot of time following the work of mr vizard, certainly his work on port velocity and combustion dynamics.

but posting things will have to wait until im sure about what im looking at.
2.8 development thread http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=170822

m3.3.1 m20 thread - now running, chip needed - any volunteers?
http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... =viewtopic&
HairyScreech
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Posts: 6265
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:00 pm

Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:37 pm

Finally got around to making these, one set of multi angle push in seats. Should save me a large amount of time and expense, but critically it will prevent any errors creeping in from cutting the seats on different cylinders.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

photo shows a stock shape in the head.
the inserts are several different shapes and are only 50/50 based on science, the 30 degree cut for the top is used on its own for all of them nearly, theres no point going for any more than this as the chamber has about a 30* slope from the seat as well as the resulting 20 or 15 degree cut being tiny and of little significance.
the throat cuts are done to work out the best shape for the throat of the port.
they are all carrying standard 45* seat angles, have decided against the use on non standard valve angles for the simple reasons of reliability, easy of manufacture and cost.

hopefully we will know the best seat angle for a stock port and how much benefit these simple £5-10 per seat modification can be.

(estimates in around 25% of the missing flow to take it to 100% potential, so 25% of the loss.
as far as im concerned its unlikely i will be putting a head back onto a engine that iv built for performance without the seats being cut.)
2.8 development thread http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=170822

m3.3.1 m20 thread - now running, chip needed - any volunteers?
http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... =viewtopic&
GeoffBob
Forced Induction Specialist
Posts: 1843
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:00 pm

Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:26 am

Nylon? Those will surely melt :wink:

Great work Screech. I look forward to seeing a comparison between the different seats you have made vs the original.

True commitment indeed. Keep it up.
Image

"It is amazing how many drivers, even at the Formula-1 level, think that brakes are for slowing the car down." - Mario Andretti
User avatar
e30-325iS
E30 Zone Newbie
E30 Zone Newbie
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:00 pm
Location: Australia

Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:44 pm

Thanks for the great thread Screech. Do you have any updates?
goosiegander
Zonegoose
Posts: 2544
Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:00 pm
Location: East Anglia

Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:19 pm

pm sent dude :)
User avatar
tomislav
E30 Zone Squatter
E30 Zone Squatter
Posts: 1633
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:00 pm
Location: Faversham, Kent

Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:02 pm

Anything on these multi angle valve seats then?

I'll be bolting my head up some time in the next couple of months so if this info comes thro as to what works best before i bolt my head on then i think i'll be getting some done
'Assumption is the mother of all f**k ups'
HairyScreech
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Posts: 6265
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:00 pm

Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:41 am

Yep, ran the tests the other day with some pretty surprising results, i need to verify the stock seat profile as it seemed to be right down on flow (but all of them are, an effect of the surface finish of the plastic inserts i am thinking atm.)

Improvements are looking to be in the order of 10-15%.
2.8 development thread http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=170822

m3.3.1 m20 thread - now running, chip needed - any volunteers?
http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... =viewtopic&
User avatar
tomislav
E30 Zone Squatter
E30 Zone Squatter
Posts: 1633
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:00 pm
Location: Faversham, Kent

Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:40 pm

Any ideas of the best angles then?
'Assumption is the mother of all f**k ups'
HairyScreech
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Posts: 6265
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:00 pm

Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:34 pm

looks like a 75/45/30 cut, Will try and crunch through the data at the weekend if i get time.

I think the 75/45/30 cut has been mentioned before as a "performance bmw" cut.
2.8 development thread http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=170822

m3.3.1 m20 thread - now running, chip needed - any volunteers?
http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... =viewtopic&
HairyScreech
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Posts: 6265
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:00 pm

Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:19 am

Ok, i know i have been promising this for a while but meh, times have been tricky.

I got a chance to test the multi angle inserts i whipped up around christmas time and go over the data.

There are a couple of obvious issues with the data which i will address first.
1. The flow is measured at the wrong valve lift - yep this ones 100% my fault the spread sheet i use takes its lift values from the valve diameter and it was set to 36mm exhaust.
This means the flow was measured in steps 5% of an exhuast valve (1.8mm) rather than steps of 5% inlet diameter (2.1mm)
2. The flow seems to be a bit low - Not sure if this is an effect of the port or the surface finish of the seats as this was done on a different head to the other tests. I had a feeling the results would be effected by using an insert rather than a normal seat which is why i made a stock seat replica.

All these two issues mean is that the data cannot be taken as absolute, the tests only show the trend rather than the actual flow a multi angle seat will produce.
As long as we look at the data as showing a % improvement rather than a peak figure then its all ok.

Obviously i will try to sort these two issues out and get true figures but for now this tells us all we need to know. (and i had already done each test twice before i spotted the error so i though fuck it ill deal with it later.)


On to the data.

The valve seats have been referred to by there angle profile thus a stock seat is a 0/45/90, having a top face perpendicular to the valve stem, a sealing face at 45 degrees to the valve stem and a throat that is parallel to the valve stem.
The angle is measured as though a ruler had been put across the top of the seat and the flat of the ruler was regarded as 0.
Thus a 30 degree top cut would proceed away from the rulers edge at 30 degrees down into the port.

Its easier to draw so have some dick and quirty diagrams.
Image

First things first the raw data.
This little chart has the seat profile down the left hand side, The lift value along the top and the Flow in CFM in the rest.
Image

And this chart shows the contents of that table plotted.
Image

Its pretty clear to see here that the best combination on the standard shape m20 port is the 30/45/75. Infact it matches the port and chamber so well it actually works better than a 4 angle.

the average improvement shown by the 30/45/75 over the range is about 13% which all things considered is a massive gain for a very simple alteration.

The plan from here is to test a port on this new head (late 89 rather than mid 85) and see if the lack of flow from the stock seat is due to the insert or the port or a combination of both.
Personally i think its a combination of both and would go a long way to explaining why some e30s are faster than others.

A proper steel 30/45/75 will also be prepared that will tell us the true gain from the multi angle, the inserts are cheap and quick for identifying the best profile but there's nothing like testing the real thing.

The other thing i will do is go to town on one of the ports and retest the inserts, it should help to see if the seats will need to be different once the ports have been worked or if they are more related to the throat and port/chamber angle.
2.8 development thread http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=170822

m3.3.1 m20 thread - now running, chip needed - any volunteers?
http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... =viewtopic&
User avatar
reggid
E30 Zone Squatter
E30 Zone Squatter
Posts: 1981
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Oz

Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:39 am

The actual width of the cut can also influence the flow. How wide was each cut?
E30 325is with M20B31
HairyScreech
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Posts: 6265
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:00 pm

Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:36 pm

on the stock as close as possible to the original.

I cant say 100% so i will check.
2.8 development thread http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=170822

m3.3.1 m20 thread - now running, chip needed - any volunteers?
http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... =viewtopic&
sean_318i
E30 Zone Newbie
E30 Zone Newbie
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Cork, Ireland

Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:56 am

Glad to see your making positive progress on this again Screech. Its one of those threads I check in on every time I visit the zone.
Looking forward to building a m20 from the recipie you are experimenting with. Nothing better than building something when you know you will get proven gains.
Cant wait to eventually replace my 240k b25 with a fresher one.

Keep Up the good work :rock:
Sean
Image
User avatar
tomislav
E30 Zone Squatter
E30 Zone Squatter
Posts: 1633
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:00 pm
Location: Faversham, Kent

Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:39 pm

Sweeeeeeet! Some results. And positive ones too.

Just ordered all the bottom end stuff for my engine, if i pull my finger out i can have it in for the summer.

Looking forward for anymore info.
'Assumption is the mother of all f**k ups'
HairyScreech
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Posts: 6265
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:00 pm

Fri May 04, 2012 1:49 am

just found something in the mahle catalogue.

a set of 6 m44b19 pistons could be used with a 731 head to build a 2860cc engine.

They are 85mm bore and have a compression height of 30.4mm, the perfect compression height for an 84mm stroke piston with a 135mm rod is about 29.8mm,
Thus a recon spec head gasket (thicker one) should put the piston at the perfect distance from the head.
The stock gaskets have bores of about 85.5 anyway so theres no issue there.
The 731 head should be used with a flat piston as the m44b19 has and there is no reason the 731 cannot be made into a cracking head.

Just a thought.


further to that:

the compression would be 9.27:1 for a stock piston and recon gasket.
the compression would be 9.88:1 assuming that 4cc of bowl was lost skimming the piston.

both comp ratios would be nice for going low pressure turbo.
Last edited by HairyScreech on Thu May 10, 2012 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
2.8 development thread http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=170822

m3.3.1 m20 thread - now running, chip needed - any volunteers?
http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... =viewtopic&
E30_Crazy
E30 Zone Regular
E30 Zone Regular
Posts: 733
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:00 pm
Location: Alaska, USA (Lived in Brandon, Suffolk)

Tue May 08, 2012 4:04 am

A little different way of getting a 2.8/2.9 then, that's pretty cool. The thing woul dbe getting them individually or as a 6-pack. I imagine they would be sold as sets of 4?
Simon13
The longest resto in the world !
Posts: 22697
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Camberley, Surrey don't u know

Tue May 08, 2012 9:19 am

Just a though Simon, but I've got this scrap head from my 2dr with a valve embedded into the chamber. That aside its fine might be good for some flow testing? See if the head work done to the ports had a good gain. It's here if you want to borrow it. Have you measured that alpina camshaft yet?
User avatar
reggid
E30 Zone Squatter
E30 Zone Squatter
Posts: 1981
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Oz

Mon May 14, 2012 1:05 am

Have you though about using a 30* seat? This is something Vizard recommends to boost low and mid lift figures which is important for a broad power band. Given that high lift is never going to be all that great on the M20 maybe it is worth looking at?
E30 325is with M20B31
HairyScreech
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Posts: 6265
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:00 pm

Mon May 14, 2012 9:26 pm

Simon13 wrote:Just a though Simon, but I've got this scrap head from my 2dr with a valve embedded into the chamber. That aside its fine might be good for some flow testing? See if the head work done to the ports had a good gain. It's here if you want to borrow it. Have you measured that alpina camshaft yet?
uhh, no to measuring the cam, i don't have a dti of my own in swansea so i will have to either do it in uni or at home and if i'm honest i had pretty much forgotten about it.

I would be very interested to do the head but i won't say yes until i'm sure i can get it done in a reasonable time frame.
reggid wrote: Have you though about using a 30* seat? This is something Vizard recommends to boost low and mid lift figures which is important for a broad power band. Given that high lift is never going to be all that great on the M20 maybe it is worth looking at?
Yes and no, the top of the chamber is pretty much 30* as it is, so a 30* top cut flows directly into the chamber roof, i'm going to run a 30* back cut onto one of the valves i have floating about here and see how that goes.
As you say a 30* seat may be of benefit but i'm not sure i would be happy with the sealing ability of the valve in the long term,
I dont know, its probably a question to ask a valve/seat grinder and something i may follow up on.

Also picked up a copy of pipe max the other week, would be interesting to compare notes at some point.
2.8 development thread http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=170822

m3.3.1 m20 thread - now running, chip needed - any volunteers?
http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... =viewtopic&
HairyScreech
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Posts: 6265
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:00 pm

Mon May 14, 2012 11:01 pm

On a better note, i have been measuring things.

Que data blast.

Image

Image

Image
2.8 development thread http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=170822

m3.3.1 m20 thread - now running, chip needed - any volunteers?
http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... =viewtopic&
User avatar
reggid
E30 Zone Squatter
E30 Zone Squatter
Posts: 1981
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Oz

Wed May 16, 2012 3:48 am

HairyScreech wrote:
Simon13 wrote:Just a though Simon, but I've got this scrap head from my 2dr with a valve embedded into the chamber. That aside its fine might be good for some flow testing? See if the head work done to the ports had a good gain. It's here if you want to borrow it. Have you measured that alpina camshaft yet?
uhh, no to measuring the cam, i don't have a dti of my own in swansea so i will have to either do it in uni or at home and if i'm honest i had pretty much forgotten about it.

I would be very interested to do the head but i won't say yes until i'm sure i can get it done in a reasonable time frame.
reggid wrote: Have you though about using a 30* seat? This is something Vizard recommends to boost low and mid lift figures which is important for a broad power band. Given that high lift is never going to be all that great on the M20 maybe it is worth looking at?
Yes and no, the top of the chamber is pretty much 30* as it is, so a 30* top cut flows directly into the chamber roof, i'm going to run a 30* back cut onto one of the valves i have floating about here and see how that goes.
As you say a 30* seat may be of benefit but i'm not sure i would be happy with the sealing ability of the valve in the long term,
I dont know, its probably a question to ask a valve/seat grinder and something i may follow up on.

Also picked up a copy of pipe max the other week, would be interesting to compare notes at some point.

Vizard discusses how to ensure a seal with the 30* seat with what is a groove on the face of the valve, happens to be good for reducing reversion of intake apparently.
E30 325is with M20B31
HairyScreech
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Posts: 6265
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:00 pm

Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:32 am

Just a note to myself and to preserve it for eternity - M52 rods, the stamped numbers go to the thrust side.
2.8 development thread http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=170822

m3.3.1 m20 thread - now running, chip needed - any volunteers?
http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... =viewtopic&
HairyScreech
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Posts: 6265
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:00 pm

Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:37 pm

Ok, said i would update so here goes.

Found a really simple way of balancing rods that seems to give a more repeatable end to end weigh compared to a home build hanging rig and a lot cheaper than a £150 commercial one, should let me get down to about .5g end to end balance, which is fine considering all it needs is a screw, a plank of wood and a set of .1g scales.
FWIW stock bmw balance is 2g end mass and 4g overall so we are looking at 4x better than stock.
If people need details i might make a vid or something of this a little ghetto but really effective method, with a bit of care its accurate enough for anything a diy might need.

On the head front not a lot has changed, i have been fiddling with some bits on and off but not been in a position to do much.
Maggspower cut me some back cut valves which i intend to test asap.

I am going to build over the next couple of days a clear vacuum attachment that will fit onto a hoover. This wont yield any numbers but will allow the use of a pitot tube or a string on a stick to investigate the velocity profile and find turbulent areas without having to use a full bench.
Its a simple thing that anyone can build at home and use to get a visual idea of the flow without having to invent eyeballs that can see air flow. :mad:
See here for an explanation of what i am on about and why it could be of use.
http://www.diyporting.com/thread.html

i have had a rethink on the piston front and may be changing the chamber geometry a touch to suit, i'm still not convinced i can make it work yet so i will only post that when i'm sure it can be done. Pointless to go off down a dead end.

As some may have seen i have been looking into coil packs and alternatives to the stock manifold both of which tie into wanting to use the m50b25tu motronic 3.3.1 ecu to run this whole show.

The last week or so i decided to raid the stores and see how much of an engine i had in there, the result was this:

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
(no internals in these pictures, they are all in the draw atm, and excuse the mess i had to clear the front of the garage where i had been washing parts so my dad could get his BSA out.)

Just need to find and clean up an upper timing case and a few other bits and i may have enough bits to do some kind of a build.

I am thinking right now that i might build a mk1 engine as a proof of concept before going all out trying to hit the target, i am so far into uncharted territory that pretty much anything could happen.
This right now i am looking at an engine that owes me very little, i can pretty much free build it from here, i only need the loom and ecu to run the thing along with a hand full of other bits and some gaskets to have an engine that will work.
Once i have a runner and all things look good then i think a mk2 will be on the cards.
I want to get all of the key bits together in the first engine so i know the second engine will be mechanically ok and i can spend more time and money on it without the risk of an expensive paperweight.

first engine spec is looking to be:
M20 block - stock
M52 rods - balanced
M52 pistons - modified
M52tu crank - stock
885 head - chamber changed, big valves, multi angle seats, light porting
M20 cam - b25 stock
M50tu ECU
Renault coils
M52 injectors
Crank Scraper
Custom inlet manifold
Custom 6 branch likely

Now there is so much room for trouble in that list spending hundreds of pounderoos on shinny bits would be crazy at this stage.
I would love to be able to make a prediction what this combo will make but its anyone's guess due to the number of variables, lets just hope it make something north of 190hp yeah?

Edit - photos in a sec. :wink:
Edit 2 - ok thats better, serously smartphones, just like punching yourself in the face while holding a normal phone. :roll:
Last edited by HairyScreech on Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
2.8 development thread http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=170822

m3.3.1 m20 thread - now running, chip needed - any volunteers?
http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... =viewtopic&
Barx325i
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Posts: 6493
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:00 pm

Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:48 pm

screechtastic - can we please have a new smiley which represents a clear dedication which surpasses screech's WANW'ness...
Last edited by Barx325i on Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
HairyScreech
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Posts: 6265
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:00 pm

Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:21 am

Don't know why the head looks blue-ish in that photo, its vht black so really dark charcoal colour, must be the florescent lamps.
2.8 development thread http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=170822

m3.3.1 m20 thread - now running, chip needed - any volunteers?
http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... =viewtopic&
H35-24
E30 Zone Newbie
E30 Zone Newbie
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:00 pm
Location: Denmark

Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:40 pm

I'm sure some of you are aware, Alpina also modified the throttlebody. It's a neat extra trick for a m20 that has had all the work done. Dinan, US tuner, is also known for supplying modified throttlebodies. In case of the M20B25 throttlebody, it get's bored out and the internals from a M30B35 body is fitted.

Total BMW had an article some time ago (I have the issue) on this mod. They tested it on a M20B27 which had something like 230 bhp, the mod on the Throttle body gave ~5 bhp! That's not bad for something that simple.

In my language there is a saying: "It's the sum of small streams that makes the river"
Why is there not enough time to do it right, but allways enough time to fix the errors - I borrowed that, just so reallistic in my line of work.
H35-24
E30 Zone Newbie
E30 Zone Newbie
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:00 pm
Location: Denmark

Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:49 pm

Nice section sketch, Looks like the real thing:

http://wp1016621.wp027.webpack.hosteuro ... f01501.htm
Why is there not enough time to do it right, but allways enough time to fix the errors - I borrowed that, just so reallistic in my line of work.
steve_k
E30 Zone Team Member
E30 Zone Team Member
Posts: 8044
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 11:00 pm
Location: in the vale of mansfield
Contact:

Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:21 pm

@h35-24 got a link to any info regarding the m20 TB with m30 internals?

I'm sure it could be a big help in this thread.
if it's got t*ts or wheels it's bound to be trouble...............prove me wrong.
getting oral sex off an ugly person is like rock climbing.....don't look down ;)
HairyScreech
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Engaged to the E30 Zone
Posts: 6265
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:00 pm

Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:42 pm

The section sketch was produced by first taking a rubbing of a head that had been cut off down the centre of the port and then constructing the grid with the face of the head as the 0 reference.

I have a plan to use an entirely different manifold and throttle to a stock b25, mostly as i seem to need about a 70mm throttle which is even over an m30.

Currently i am not sure what from as bmw have helpfuly changed the stud pattern of there throttles a number of times
i might have to get oldschool on this one and get down the scrapyard with a veneer caliper as find one from something else.
2.8 development thread http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=170822

m3.3.1 m20 thread - now running, chip needed - any volunteers?
http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... =viewtopic&
Kedge
Old Skooler
Old Skooler
Posts: 7702
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Leicestershire

Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:24 am

Have you looked at the Metric Mechanics website? Seems like there's a lot of info on there explaining the mods they use and engine packages they offer.

I remember years ago looking on there when I have my iS and saw their Pulse Chamber Intake Manifold for the M42, they now do one for the M20. Is this something you've heard of before?

Can only really find information on the M42 version;
Image
Image
'86 Polaris 316 M20B28 Rebuild
Instagram - Kedge85
E30_Crazy
E30 Zone Regular
E30 Zone Regular
Posts: 733
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:00 pm
Location: Alaska, USA (Lived in Brandon, Suffolk)

Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:45 am

So, basically re-ingesting the bit of fuel-air mixture that gets pushed out by the intake valve closing... pretty smart, really. Probaby even saves a pinch of fuel if driving modestly.
H35-24
E30 Zone Newbie
E30 Zone Newbie
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:00 pm
Location: Denmark

Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:35 pm

What Kedge has found that Metric Mechanics do with the M42 intake is always present in all engines. It's wavetuning, and all manifolds intake and exhaust are in someway tuned to give the engine the torquecurve it has.

Basically there are 4 important things to know:

1. A Wave in air travel at the speed of sound, air waves are pressure peaks/drops.

2. When a change in geometry occurs, such as where a runner stops and a plenum starts, an air wave will stop and produce a reflection wave that returns down the runner.

3. A plenum can act as a resonater, that can pump air, it's known as a helmholz resonater.

4. The trick Metric mechanics use is, I can't remember it exactly but it's like when you open the window in a car and sometimes you get this intense pulse generation.
You'll also see it on an E36 M5x airfilterbox, but here the effect is probably to alter some unwanted intake noise.

So if you look at an M20 intake manifold, there are 6 equal length runners that all end in a plenum behind the throttle housing. The length of the runners give the max torque and the plenum acting as a helmholz resonater keeps the torque high in the bottom revs. This is also why the M20B20 and M20b25 have different manifolds, the runners are the same diameter inside, but the plenum is different.

When individual throttlebodies are used on engines like the M20 the increase in power does not come from having 6 TB's instead of one, it comes because the runners get shorter, a shorter runner will move the max torque higher up in the rpm-range and as we all know torque x rpm = bhp.
This usually also means the bottom end torque is decreased as the plenum has now been removed or has a size that makes it seem like its removed to the engine.
The only thing the individual throttle bodies give is a quicker throttle response.

Finally runner diameters are usually a compromise between performance and optiminum fuel/air mixing for best fuel economy.

That's at least what I read when studying my master degree, anyone read something different?
Why is there not enough time to do it right, but allways enough time to fix the errors - I borrowed that, just so reallistic in my line of work.
H35-24
E30 Zone Newbie
E30 Zone Newbie
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:00 pm
Location: Denmark

Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:40 pm

steve_k wrote:@h35-24 got a link to any info regarding the m20 TB with m30 internals?

I'm sure it could be a big help in this thread.
Well I have the Total BMW issue somewhere, I'll try and find it.

And then I know I have seen some people around the web, I think the first was zoner, wasn't there a webshop in here once where one could by a tradein throttlebody that had this done?

I have also recently seen an advert for a very nice one on www.e30.de, but I can't find it now.

Basically all there is to do is bore the M20B25 aluminum casting to the diameter that the M30B35 is and then move the M30B35 internals over. Some also give the bore a nice trumpet shape, the German advert on www.e30.de had this.

It's also a good ideer to check that the hole in the intake manifold is big enough for the altered TB.
Why is there not enough time to do it right, but allways enough time to fix the errors - I borrowed that, just so reallistic in my line of work.
Post Reply