Honest experienced opinion on M30 conversion please

[m10man]

I am seriously considering the M30 3.5 conversion. I was going to go turbo M10, but I dont want the turbo lag. I want the linear power of a normally apsirpated engine. My concern with the M30 3.5 conversion is with handling balance. I dont just want a traffic light drag machine. In my opinion Beemers are all about a balanced driving machine. So I am after the advice and experience of people who have done the conversion on how it changes the handling balance of the e30. All feedback greatly appreciated.

[Andy335Touring]

An M30 powered E30 is very similar handling wise to an M20 powered E30

[Gwynleym10]

And just think your not being THAT sacraficial by having an M30 as its basicaly an m10 and a half! Chain driven rightness.

[andrewe30m3]

having had a 3.5 M30 in my old E30 M3, I would recommend it, however my engine was an alpina 245 or 260 unit, so it had a definate power band with the alpina cam. Go for it to get 220BHP out the box.

[Ant]

On the flip side, a small turbo on the bomproof M10 botom end would yeild some superb results on moderate boost

with a sensible turbo you'd have no noticable lag and easy break the stock M30 output whilst retaining the balance of the 4 cylinder cars

someone had to say it

[e30_Turbo]

On the flip side, a small turbo on the bomproof M10 botom end would yeild some superb results on moderate boost

with a sensible turbo you'd have no noticable lag and easy break the stock M30 output whilst retaining the balance of the 4 cylinder cars

someone had to say it

2nded

Lag aint that bad at all, the anticipation/excitement is awesome

[Andy335Touring]

Nah, M30 all the way.............................



















........................with a turbo of course

M10 Turbo could be cool as well

Ant, books ?

[Ant]

Sorry Andy, all over the place @ the mo, will expedite their return ASAP

[Andy335Touring]

NP's mate

[m10man]

Appreciate the feedback guys, thanks. I must admit tho, you got me thinking Ant - I do love those bombproof M10's. Maybe running an 8:1 comp ratio with a T04 turbo at 12psi would make a nice balanced road weapon. One thing that worries with the M30 is a lot say it is not a reving engine. Anyone car to elaborate. If I do an M30 I wont be leaving it standard - 10:1 lightweight forged pistons, lightened flywheel and harmonic balancer, bottom end balanced, head work with upgraded overhead gear and nice say 272 cam. How do you reckon this sort of engine will go.

Here is a picture of our track car suspension just put in on weekend. All new components with H&R specially valved coilovers, m3 castor bushes etc., This is totally stripped out and lightened. It is designed to embarrass a lot higher priced sports cars on track eg. Porches etc., we are now thinking of the M30 for this car too.

[Andy335Touring]

If I do an M30 I wont be leaving it standard - 10:1 lightweight forged pistons, lightened flywheel and harmonic balancer, bottom end balanced, head work with upgraded overhead gear and nice say 272 cam. How do you reckon this sort of engine will go.

Those coil overs look cool !

I'd say go for a turbo as your N/A set up is going to cost quite a bit, i'd guess you would be looking at around 245 bhp and lbs depending on how good the mapping of your ECU will be.

Mine is a stock bottom end(9.0:1) with an E28 single mass fly wheel which is a few kg lighter than the E34/2 dual mass wheel. Flowed head, Schrick 284/280 cam and Emerald mappable ECU.

My peak torque is at 4.2k rpm and peak power at 6k rpm, stock peak torque is at 4k and power 5.7k.

It's not a high reving engine but it is happy to pull to its 6.5k rpm rev limiter, but it does have good torque and is a flexible engine for day to day trips. You can accellerate through the gears and change up at 5.5k and still not drop out of the power band which is handy on a track day as you don't want to be reving the nuts out of it all day.

What about an S14 if it's for track days ?

[m10man]

Well after a lot of research I have come to the conclusion that the M30 is the best option for the naturally aspirated power that I want. That is taking cost into the equation. Sure an E36 or E46 engine would be better but the cost is too high. I dont think I would squeeze the naturally aspirated power I want out of an S14, and if I did, it would very highly strung. This conversion is for a daily driver.

Hey Andy, whats the 284/280 cam like? Have you tracked your car, if so how would you describe the handling? Have you done a G-Tech 0-60? In a recent TotalBMW mag a 335i Touring was described by the writer as the best E30 that he has driven.

To help the weight distribution I am putting the battery (13kgs) and washer bottle in the boot, not going to run air-con or power steering and put a carbon fibre bonnet on. Availability and prices of 535i's and 735is here in Australia is ridiculous. Anyone know of any cheep donor cars over there with manual boxes? I would consider shipping one over if it was cheap enough.

[Andy335Touring]

I dont think I would squeeze the naturally aspirated power I want out of an S14, and if I did, it would very highly strung. This conversion is for a daily driver.

The M30 will be good for a DD car.

Hey Andy, whats the 284/280 cam like? Have you tracked your car, if so how would you describe the handling? Have you done a G-Tech 0-60?

I got the cam fitted at the same time as the head was flowed so it's hard to judge what the cam did on it own. There is no loss of torque up to 3.5k, 3.5k it starts comming on cam, 4k it's fully on cam and pulls a lot better than before up to 6k, 6k to 6.5k red line the power tappers off a bit.

I've not G-teched it for ages, it's around the same as a well built 2dr 2.7(tourings are about 70-80kgs heavier than a 2dr) to 60mph but as soon as you use third gear onwards is where you really feel the extra power.

I have tracked this engine when it was in my E34 but not yet in the E30

Heres a short vid clip of me going around a WET Donington Park last April.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.law47/vid%201.mpg

In a recent TotalBMW mag a 335i Touring was described by the writer as the best E30 that he has driven.

That was mine.

To help the weight distribution I am putting the battery (13kgs) and washer bottle in the boot, not going to run air-con or power steering and put a carbon fibre bonnet on.

Sounds a good plan, just removing the air-con parts alone will off set all the added wieght going from an M20 to an M30.

I still have the battery in the engine bay but the twin washer bottle are gone, i have plumbed/wired the rear washer res' to power the front washer jets.

Availability and prices of 535i's and 735is here in Australia is ridiculous. Anyone know of any cheep donor cars over there with manual boxes? I would consider shipping one over if it was cheap enough.

You can get cheap E34 535 manuals for around 300-500 pounds but i'm guessing it would be very expensive to ship one over including the dredded Tax mans cut ! ?

A 300-500 pound car might be a bit of a gamble, 500-1000 might give you a better chance of a better car ?

Have a look on the UK ebay site and auto trader.

http://atsearch.autotrader.co.uk/www/cars_search.asp

If you could get some one to palletise the parts you need it might be cheaper ?

[Toby_Unna]

In a recent TotalBMW mag a 335i Touring was described by the writer as the best E30 that he has driven.

To help the weight distribution I am putting the battery (13kgs) and washer bottle in the boot, not going to run air-con or power steering and put a carbon fibre bonnet on. Availability and prices of 535i's and 735is here in Australia is ridiculous. Anyone know of any cheep donor cars over there with manual boxes? I would consider shipping one over if it was cheap enough.

as Andy says... that was his car!!

i've heard australians saying before that you can't get cheap m30 donor cars over there. it's a shame, we have plenty here!

the good news is the e34 manual gearboxes are pretty tough, and are the same between M30 530i and 535i.

[m10man]

Thanks Andy and Toby, really appreciate your help. I am really looking forward to getting this conversion done now. Thats a nice car you have Andy. Really enjoyed reading that article.

[Demlotcrew]

Well after a lot of research I have come to the conclusion that,

I dont think I would squeeze the naturally aspirated power I want out of an S14, and if I did, it would very highly strung.

Sorry dude but that shows me you have not done your research, there are daily driver S14s with 250bhp at the wheels and they would mince a M30 anyday!

(Sorry guys)

Andrew

[jonb]

Well after a lot of research I have come to the conclusion that,

I dont think I would squeeze the naturally aspirated power I want out of an S14, and if I did, it would very highly strung.

Sorry dude but that shows me you have not done your research, there are daily driver S14s with 250bhp at the wheels and they would mince a M30 anyday!

(Sorry guys)

Andrew

i doubt it andy. have you driven an e30 with just a standard m30 lump(211 e34 type). it would wipe its own ass with an m3 (in a straight line).

this ozzy doesnt want to spend thousands on making his car almost as fast as a cooking model holden or ford etc. hes got a budget and the m30 makes sence.

ive not been in andys tourer yet, but ive heard that its very very fast.

[Demlotcrew]

Jon read my post then reply

Andrew

[jonb]

ive read it hence the reply. i know you mention s14 engines with 250bhp at the wheels. but thats an expensive game.

a 2.3 4 pot with about 270bhp is going to be a useless spiting monster for everday use. but lets just bring cost into it.

to get that sort of power out of that engine is going to cost thousands. which is sad really. the same power can be strung out of an m30 for far less, and will ultimately be fairly quicker due to the torque.

[Simon13]

Well after a lot of research I have come to the conclusion that,

I dont think I would squeeze the naturally aspirated power I want out of an S14, and if I did, it would very highly strung.

Sorry dude but that shows me you have not done your research, there are daily driver S14s with 250bhp at the wheels and they would mince a M30 anyday!

(Sorry guys)

Andrew

i doubt it andy. have you driven an e30 with just a standard m30 lump(211 e34 type). it would wipe its own ass with an m3 (in a straight line).

this ozzy doesnt want to spend thousands on making his car almost as fast as a cooking model holden or ford etc. hes got a budget and the m30 makes sence.

ive not been in andys tourer yet, but ive heard that its very very fast.

hmmm S14's rip and a tuned one well................to me an S14 is Daves civic v-tec on big roids and a tuned one would imo wipe a 2.7 or M30. I find with the 6 pot conversions the torque makes the car feel faster than they are. I maybe wrong.

BUT tuning an S14 is big money compared to M20 and M30 tuning. Get that M30 as close to the bulkhead as poss. They do fly though. I've been in Andy335's a couple of times. It's the extra litre and the high speed pull that gives it the kudos.

got to be said the mighty e34 M5 3.6 lump? i suppose it's even more money over there though if M30's are lots of dollars

2p ding in the pot

[Demlotcrew]

The sad truth is that Jonb underestimates the S14 engines only because hes had little or no experience with one (not his fault really as he brakes cars not drive them)

Anyway Si i think your wrong, its not that S14 are expensive to tune they are expensive to buy and maintain, they respond much better to mods than any other E30/E36 engine and there are many DTM racing parts still available over the counter making these engines highly sought after in Motorsport today.

For example a Maf conversion on a M20 is close to Ԛ£700 when done properly where as Maxx for the S14 is only E600 and you can tune it yourself to your harts contempt!

but why bother with all that when you can get a 200bhp lump from jonb and have it fitted for less than a monkey?

Andrew

[jonb]

but why bother with all that when you can get a 200bhp lump from jonb and have it fitted for less than a monkey?

Andrew

to be honest thats a bloody good point.

what you mean i dont drive my cars, thats a piss poor opinion andy.

ive driven a few m3"s now and owned one. but i wont chat about the plus points, although there are many, and they do inpress me.

but they are not for the straight line. nowdays it would struggle to keep with most turbo diesel motors.

[Demlotcrew]

Please tell me what Diesel the M3 would strugle against?

Andrew

[m10man]

Lets clear one thing up first. I repect the S14 immensly. It is a true legend of an engine. However when you look at bang for bucks and daily driveability it is hard to go past the M30 conversion. I am building one to Hartge H35 specs. Look at the comparison:

M3 2.5 Sport Evo: 238bhp @ 7000rpm
176lb-ft @ 4750
0-60 = 6.1 seconds
Top Speed = 154mph

Hartge H35 (M30): 240bhp @ 6000rpm
237lb-ft @ 4000rpm
0-60 = 6.0 seconds
Top Speed = 153mph

The M30 conversion has my vote. So you cant tell me that an S14 M3 is going to wipe an M30 powered E30's ass, that is just not going to happen. The H35's engine position gives the same front/rear weight balance as a 325i, so with a few suspension improvements the handling will be spot on.

If you get an engine with close to equal hp and torque figures this produces a very balanced engine that you will never get tired of driving. The M30 with 240hp and 237lb-ft is pretty much close to a perfectly balanced engine. This makes a good daily driver.

This is all before cost comes into it! I have a freind who just had his M3 S14 engine rebuilt to standard spec and it cost him $10,000!! We are lucky to even find an E30 M3 for sale down here let alone an engine. I reckon if we found an engine we wouldnt get it for less than 10 grand, and that is before a rebuild. So when cost comes into it the M30 conversion wins again.

So you can see, I have done my research.

[Simon13]

If u are using it as a daily driver an M30 does about 4mpg. The economy on them is horrendous. They drink fuel heavy regardless of whether u are booting it or crawling along. This is not an acceptable feature in my book!

[m10man]

Mate, they are no worse than an M20. On all reviews the E34 535i returns a combined cycle of 22mpg. Even the E32 735i returns a combined economy of 20mpg. So an M30 in the lighter E30 body is going to do better than these. The road test of the South African E30 333i returned a combined cycle of 24mpg. If I can get between 22 and 24 for normal driving I will be happy with that. Granted the earlier M30's were thirsty but BMW made big improvements with economy in the later M30's that were in the E34's and E32's.