Another touring ICE advice thread

[Jozi]

I'm thinking of getting better speakers for the touring for when she's going back together. What I already have is a Alpine 9880r head unit and some jbl components up front (that turned out not to be a great buy) and standard rear speakers.

I'd like to replace the speakers with something else, better, components up front. For the rear I think it's a 10cm speaker, not sure if it possible to fit components as well or to modify the speaker pod for a 13cm driver unit?

While I'm at it I might as well also install a amp, nothing big though! Any advice on what to look for? I'm guessing I will need a 4 channel amp to drive both front and rear speakers. Do these things come with their own volume control?

At some stage I'd like to build a carpc and possibly get rid of the head unit altogether and would need the amp to be able to take an input from a pc sound card (I guess this is just the same as hooking up the pc to my receiver).

Never really been a fan of subwoofers + they can't really be hidden away nicely in a touring. I prefer good all-round sound that won't struggle if turned up a little. The JBL components I had were a bit weak in their base and the treble was very peaky, a bit more base and nicer treble would do it for me.

Just from looking at some sites and what I've seen mentioned here:

13cm Components:
http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/hertz-e ... 130-3.html
or these (for the rear maybe?) http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/hertz-d ... k-130.html

http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/pioneer-ts-e130ci.html
or these (for the rear maybe?) http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/pioneer-tsa131ci.html

Will the above tweeters fit into the BMW tweeter pods?

10cm drivers for the rear
http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/hertz-d ... x-100.html or
http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/hertz-e ... 100-3.html

http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/pioneer-ts-g1012i.html or
http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/pioneer-ts-e1002i.html

Amp - not really sure what to look for here, something that can be hidden under a seat or in the little compartments in the boot would be ideal
http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/alpine-pmx-f640.html

Speaker wire - anything I should look out for her?
http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/connects2-ct7217.html
http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/cad-spe ... spool.html

Headunit to amp cable - again, anything to look out for?
http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/accesso ... ring-kits/

Do I need any fuses or capacitors and what not

[miniblob]

Wow, few questions there!!!

What model are the JBL comps you have?
JBL generally handle bass fairly well - how well were they installed?? A good, airtight fit, or bodged in with a couple of screws???
The installation will make quite a difference to the bass/midrange and a solid baffle to mount them on would improve things (I'm intending to make some for mine in a couple of weeks!!).
I will also be putting a bit of soundproofing around and behind when mine are re-installed!!

Harsh tweeters - well that could just be your preference as much as anything, though you may find an amp changes their sound slightly. I've always found JL tweeters a bit harsh for my tastes, but never been upset by JBL so far (though i've not tried any recent or cheaper car audio units!).

Size of touring rears - can't remember tbh, but they're small!! Personally, I'm not bothering with rears at all. Not necessary imho, if you get a good front end setup - but that will come down to personal preference too!!
If you want rears, I would stick with standard size, as you should be pushing them less than the fronts.

Amp - yes, you will want a 4ch amp if you want to run front and rear. Thousands to choose from, but I would go for something second hand and better quality, rather than some cheap (or overpriced!) crap that halfords push!!!
As for volume control - the amp has a gain control - for a very rough and basic setup, turn your h/u up to three quarters (avoiding distortion), up the gain control on the amp until the speakers just start to distort and then ease it back a bit. Volume then controlled like normal from your h/u and the speakers won't distort or be damaged when you turn it up a bit!!
Loads of amps will be small enough to tuck away in a touring - behind a side panel in the boot would be most obvious - or use your imagination!!

Cabling
- you'll want a power cable from the battery to the amp (fused as close to the batt as poss)
- an earth cable (earthed close to the amp)
- a remote cable (runs from h/u to amp and switches the amp on/off with your stereo!)
- RCA/Phono cable from h/u to amp (generally get what you pay for, but depending on your budget, I dare you to tell the difference between a £20 & £200 cable on a £50 pair of speakers!!)
- Speaker wire (same as above, get what you pay for generally............)

If you're not a fan of subs, you've never heard a good one!!!!!
Fit a small one to complement your components and you'll hear vastly improved quality and range you didn't know you were missing!!! (It doesn't need to be big and boomy!! You shouldn't even know it's there, until you take it away!!!).
If you think a sub can't be hidden away, you've never seen a properly installed one!!! Lose your glovebox and hide one there?? Behind one of the rear panels in the boot?? Under the floor instead of a spare wheel?? Just a few obvious ideas!!

All of the above though, depends on your budget, how much time you want to put in and how good you want it to sound!!!!!

For cheap, high quality kit, I always keep an eye on the talkaudio forum classifieds!!!! Loads of advice and knowledge on there too, so well worth a visit!!!!

From what you have said above, I would say get yourself a small, quality 4ch amp first. (Fit it in the boot, nicely tucked away behind one side panel maybe?) Set it up with the speakers you have and see what you think.
If you're still not happy with the fronts, time to invest in some better ones!!!
The right 4ch amp could also give you the flexibility to disconnect the rear speakers and try a small sub in the boot. You want an amp that is ok to run with two channels bridged for a sub, then maybe borrow a small sub off someone, or get a local shop to demo one in your car for you. You'll hear the difference straight away!!!
You can then hook the rear speakers back up, if you still want to - and even upgrade them if you feel the need!
Then sort yourself out with a nice little sub!!!!!

Hope that helps you out a bit mate!! I'm knackered now!!!!!

[Jozi]

Thanks Miniblob for the reply, definitely was of help to me!

The JBL's from memory were GTO's, to be honest it's a year+ since I've listened to them and I remember the treble being quite a bit more pronounced than the base, a few friends commented on the same saying it lacked bass and to much treble. I'm going to ditch them anyway and get something better, I have a feeling the tweeters might have been exposed to the elements since taking the car of the road.

As for using a sub, I guess it's as much the case in a car install as it is with a home entertainment system, cheap woofers don't cut it and can't get as low as a good expensive one. I've sort of changed my mind on them since this morning....

I spent a bit of time today on talkaudio and changed what I planned in the first posts a little.

Rear speakers, as these don't really benefit me at all (I didn't even know they worked until I changed the HU to send all sound to the rear) and are more for the pleasure of rear passenger I might keep the original speakers or get something cheap-ish and connect them straight to the head unit.

I think I'll still go with a 4 channel amp for the fronts and bridge it then to drive a small sub. I was looking at subwoofers like these for under a seat: here and here. Any recommendations for reasonably good sub? These shallow depth one look interesting: Helix Esprit E8w or Pioneer TS-SW841D or keep it all the same brand with a Hertz Energy ES200.3?

A woofer sort of adds to my budget a little but I can probably cut back a bit on the rear speakers, but it is probably worth it - so long as it's not boomey as you say!!! I will also need to soundproof the car again as the old stuff has been removed by the time I get to installing audio equipment so more cost!

As for hiding it, under a seat seams ideal to me! Do they all need enclosures and how big do these get for the sub to work optimally (a link to finding this out even if you have one handy)? I could possibly hide it in one of the touring boot compartments if they provide enough space?

Do you know is it possible to make a 16cm/6" driver fit in behind the kick plates?

[miniblob]

It's dangerous spending time on talk audio - normally results in me spending lots of money!!!!!!

An alternative could be a nice little 2 ch amp to power the fronts and a separate amp (mono or 2ch bridged!) for a sub in the future. Amp for the fronts may fit under the passenger seat if you're looking for ways to save space!!
Just another option to bear in mind if you see any bargains - may or may not suit you, your pocket, or what sort of install you want!!

I've not really looked at shallow subs much, but I quite like the look of that Helix one!!
No idea if you'll be able to fit a sub under the seat in an E30 though (I have the seat all the way down and back!!!).
I would probably stick with putting it in one of the side panels in the boot (been done before!) - or my plan for the convertible is to lose the glovebox and have the sub there, firing down into the footwell!!

All subs need an enclosure (well, 99%!) and if you're going for quality, rather than massive volume, I would stick to a sealed enclosure - which will also be smaller and simpler to make!! It can be pretty much any shape you can make, but it does need to be the correct volume to work with the sub - some work better in smaller enclosures than others!!!
Can be anything from a tiny 0.5 cu ft upwards!!! It should give an idea in the manual for the sub (you can download pdf's from a lot of manufacturers!!).

You'll also want to consider the impedance of the sub!!! That Helix is a dual 2ohm, which means wired in series, it shows 4ohms to the amp, but wired in parallel it will show a 1ohm load to the amp!! Check the power ratings of the amp at 1 & 4ohms!! You will most likely find a lot of the cheaper amps aren't recommended to use at 1ohm - a lot of subs are just a single 4 ohm connection, which would be fine for you.

As i say matey, I'd start with the fronts - get them well fitted with a bit of soundproofing behind and around them - set up on a nice little amp.
Then when your funds allow/bargains crop up add a nice little sub into the mix.
You can add as much soundproofing as you like, as and when the budget allows - again, this stuff often comes up cheap on talkaudio as people get rid of leftover bits, etc!!! I believe there is someone on there that sells a much cheaper alternative to dynamat too, and it's highly rated by the guys on there!!

6" driver in the front? Good luck!!! Not sure to be honest but would prob require the kick plates to be cut out for the driver - or a proper custom build if you're feeling adventurous!! There are some pre made 'pods' around that fit in/on with the door pocket and allow fitting of 6" drivers - worth checking on ebay!!

[Jozi]

I don't mind going all out with front + rear speakers, amp and sub now, figure I'll get it over and done with now while I'm at it and while I have money to do it. I don't get the whole sub and ohm thing (not looked into it yet to understand it), I just figured an amp would work with a sub :p bit of caution and research then when choosing them.

Been trying to figure out how big a box I would need, going by this pdf for the woofer I need 12.8 + .9 (driver displacement). Which can be achieved by a 19x30x30 enclosure, no idea if this fits, have to measure up. Going by this page

I've been reading a bit and finding conflicting opinions on having 13cm drivers vs 16.cm drivers up front. Some say 13cm is just fine others saying it's not enough and it's worth making 16cm drivers fit.

Are 13cm drivers (components) really that bad? I'm pretty sure I'll fit a small sub in the boot, will this make up for the lack of lows from a 13cm driver? I'm after good sound even at higher volumes, not after some sort of spl setup, just something that sound good.

Finally, how do you rate Focal (vs Hertz).