Custom Steering Racks

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Demlotcrew
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Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:41 pm

Ive seen the BTB system on Simons car, he bought one of their exhausts when Salman did a alpina copy group buy, very basic mild steel, sounded good for the majority of the life of the system, but the fit was horrible!

Im pretty sure that the BTB manifold is a blended copy of the RD and Alpina manifolds?

Im always very sceptical of proven power gains especially when there is no fuelling or ignition compensation. Lets swap your AFM and see if you loose or gain any power :wink:

Im just like you, i too do not want pirtek pipes all over the place, then theres the coupling too, just doesnt seem such a finished implementation, seems to work ok though!

This is a manifold they made for turbo project. Obviously not finished, but also not tuned in any way at all, its a turbo after all.

Image

Andrew
Demlotcrew
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Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:44 pm

Jon_Bmw wrote:Mr Vanmanannnnnanannananannn. :) He has my trade plates at the moment!

I would be chasing people who use their RHD s14 engined e30 in competition. They are the people who will stump up the dosh I guess.
Well i have two RHD M3 guys from S14Power committed to the group buy, just need to get to the magic five and ill start with a £350 deposit to start the design work.

:cool:
DanThe
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Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:48 pm

You not seen my custom PAS pipes then Andrew? :)
Demlotcrew
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Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:51 pm

Dude, i had Ian332isport custom hard pipes, those are nice, im pretty sure yours are very much like that. :cool:
bss325i
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Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:55 pm

Demlotcrew wrote:Ive seen the BTB system on Simons car, he bought one of their exhausts when Salman did a alpina copy group buy, very basic mild steel, sounded good for the majority of the life of the system, but the fit was horrible!

Im pretty sure that the BTB manifold is a blended copy of the RD and Alpina manifolds?


Errr... that will be a quick silver system then, NOT a BTB!
Demlotcrew wrote:Im always very sceptical of proven power gains especially when there is no fuelling or ignition compensation. Lets swap your AFM and see if you loose or gain any power :wink:
My car has been dynoed on the same dyno pre and post manifold fitment and the gains were there.

My car was also dynoed post fitment of the manifold on two different dyno's on the same day and the results were the same give or take a bhp/lbft.

Simon was there and he dynoed his car on both dynos too!

Do you want to see the print outs?

As long as the AFM is in perfect condition like mine and the the CO is set correctly like mine is then there should be very little difference if any on the power/torque outputs.
Demlotcrew wrote:Im just like you, i too do not want pirtek pipes all over the place, then theres the coupling too, just doesnt seem such a finished implementation, seems to work ok though!
In my old S50'd E30 it had an E36 M3 rack and it all worked ok but it all looked home made.
Demlotcrew wrote:This is a manifold they made for turbo project. Obviously not finished, but also not tuned in any way at all, its a turbo after all.

Image

Andrew
Thats not exactly a good judge of weather their work is any good or not, just a few pipes tacked together.

Another point in case for BTB, they are the only manifold to retain factory power outputs on E30's with an S50 engine and as you know the design of the S50 manifold is also crucial to that particular engine.
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bss325i
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Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:58 pm

Demlotcrew wrote:This is a manifold they made for turbo project. Obviously not finished, but also not tuned in any way at all, its a turbo after all.

Image

Andrew
Oh, and this aint exactly rice, its a Mk3 Ford escort!
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Demlotcrew
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Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:25 pm

Lol dude it's not a Mk3 ford escort.

Just did a quick google of btb and the first result was not very encouraging, Total BMW fitted one of their manifolds only to loose power low end and gained very little top end and the group buy failed!

http://www.bavarian-board.co.uk/forum_p ... r-manifold

It's exactly this type of issue which makes me even more determined to keep my manifold which is good for 320bhp +

Andrew
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Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:29 pm

I thought escort when I saw that daft spring, but the catch plate in the middle doesnt look right :?
bss325i
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Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:45 pm

Demlotcrew wrote:Lol dude it's not a Mk3 ford escort.

Just did a quick google of btb and the first result was not very encouraging, Total BMW fitted one of their manifolds only to loose power low end and gained very little top end and the group buy failed!

http://www.bavarian-board.co.uk/forum_p ... r-manifold

It's exactly this type of issue which makes me even more determined to keep my manifold which is good for 320bhp +

Andrew
TBMW fitted one of their manifolds to what engine?

That link you posted up reveals nothing and means nothing

If you look in this very section of the zone (group buys) you will see that there have been two very successful group buys for BTB M20 manifolds which are proven to give considerable gains.

And at no point have i said get an S14 manifold made by BTB, i just wanted to clear up the fact that BTB are a good company to use.

If its not a mk3 escort then what is it?
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bss325i
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Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:46 pm

Just twigged, its a mk3 Astra with a Saab engine.

You mates one right?

Again, not exactly rice!
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Demlotcrew
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Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:54 pm

Yup it's an astra, they take on all sort of turbo work not just jap.

Dude at no point did anyone mention BTB, you did ;)

Have a read of the whole thread from the very beginning, you can't deny the TBMW M3 made barely any power even after a full remap with this manifold, it means no development or testing went in to it by BTB, this may not be the case for M20 engines, but ive yet to see anyone make the same effort, for me it's a no go as you can clearly see the manifold was never going to make any power on the S14 engine.

Andrew
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Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:17 pm

Demlotcrew wrote:Yup it's an astra, they take on all sort of turbo work not just jap.
Regardless, its still not indicative of the quality of their work and in no way comparable to BTB of which you thought a quicksilver was and were drawing comparisons from.
Demlotcrew wrote:Dude at no point did anyone mention BTB, you did ;)
Kos mentioned BTB first, re-read the thread.
Demlotcrew wrote:Have a read of the whole thread from the very beginning, you can't deny the TBMW M3 made barely any power even after a full remap with this manifold, it means no development or testing went in to it by BTB, this may not be the case for M20 engines, but ive yet to see anyone make the same effort, for me it's a no go as you can clearly see the manifold was never going to make any power on the S14 engine.

Andrew
I just skim read the 5 pages and the TBMW car was still running on the MAXX alpha N base map when it was dynoed the first time and then it was "tuned" at the same time had new cams fitted so its hardly an accurate test of what gains/losses were made. As cams were added there are to many other factors which would/could have effected the results such as what cams and if they were installed correctly.

This does in no way prove if there was or wasn't any development or testing involved but im sure there should have been some.
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Demlotcrew
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Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:44 pm

bss325i wrote:Regardless, its still not indicative of the quality of their work and in no way comparable to BTB of which you thought a quicksilver was and were drawing comparisons from.
Its exactly comparable to what BTB do, they use pre mandrel bent pieces tack welded together to get the basic shape then sealed by TIG welding, thats exactly what the local rice specialist does, in fairness probably an ever better job going by the photos of BTB manifolds on google images.
bss325i wrote:Kos mentioned BTB first, re-read the thread.


Maybe you should take it up with Kos, this is a thread about a possible quick rack group buy. You could always pay £1100 for a BTB3 + £200 for a rack and some of Dans hydraulic lines and let us get on with the group buy?
bss325i wrote:I just skim read the 5 pages and the TBMW car was still running on the MAXX alpha N base map when it was dynoed the first time and then it was "tuned" at the same time had new cams fitted so its hardly an accurate test of what gains/losses were made. As cams were added there are to many other factors which would/could have effected the results such as what cams and if they were installed correctly.

This does in no way prove if there was or wasn't any development or testing involved but im sure there should have been some.
You're sure there should have been some? The TBMW car was mapped on the stock manifold and exhaust and tested, then it was mapped with the BTB manifold, cams and airbox and it only gained 33hp thats still 35bhp lower than mines with a BMW Motorsport Manifold! What would you do? Fit a BTB manifold which is nothing like any of the BMW manifolds and potentially looses 35hp on a like for like engine configuration?

Just look at rezaq's post on this page (towards the bottom).

http://www.bavarian-board.co.uk/forum_p ... r-manifold

With regards to cams, if you've ever fitted cams to a S14 you will know its impossible to incorrectly fit them (with stock sprockets).
bss325i
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Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:11 am

Demlotcrew wrote:
bss325i wrote:Regardless, its still not indicative of the quality of their work and in no way comparable to BTB of which you thought a quicksilver was and were drawing comparisons from.
Its exactly comparable to what BTB do, they use pre mandrel bent pieces tack welded together to get the basic shape then sealed by TIG welding, thats exactly what the local rice specialist does, in fairness probably an ever better job going by the photos of BTB manifolds on google images.
Forget google images, come back to me when you have seen a BTB in front of your eyes.
Demlotcrew wrote:
bss325i wrote:Kos mentioned BTB first, re-read the thread.


Maybe you should take it up with Kos, this is a thread about a possible quick rack group buy. You could always pay £1100 for a BTB3 + £200 for a rack and some of Dans hydraulic lines and let us get on with the group buy?
A BTB3 isnt and has never been £1100 and i dont want a non E30 rack in my sport. I have shown interest at the beginning of this thread toward the group buy and still do, if the price is right.
Demlotcrew wrote:
bss325i wrote:I just skim read the 5 pages and the TBMW car was still running on the MAXX alpha N base map when it was dynoed the first time and then it was "tuned" at the same time had new cams fitted so its hardly an accurate test of what gains/losses were made. As cams were added there are to many other factors which would/could have effected the results such as what cams and if they were installed correctly.

This does in no way prove if there was or wasn't any development or testing involved but im sure there should have been some.
You're sure there should have been some? The TBMW car was mapped on the stock manifold and exhaust and tested, then it was mapped with the BTB manifold, cams and airbox and it only gained 33hp thats still 35bhp lower than mines with a BMW Motorsport Manifold! What would you do? Fit a BTB manifold which is nothing like any of the BMW manifolds and potentially looses 35hp on a like for like engine configuration?

Just look at rezaq's post on this page (towards the bottom).

http://www.bavarian-board.co.uk/forum_p ... r-manifold

With regards to cams, if you've ever fitted cams to a S14 you will know its impossible to incorrectly fit them.
Where are the figures to say it lost power, i dont see any. Where does it say that they only gained 33bhp?

rezaq's post is insignificant.

With regards to cams, they could have been incorrectly shimmed when fitted and if they had vernier pulleys fitted at the same time then the cam timing could have been adjusted incorrectly both of which can loose you power as you know.

The bottom line is that the ONLY way to prover gains or losses of that manifold are to fit it without any other modifications and dyno back to back. That was not done by TBMW so there for the results are not conclusive.

But i digress.

Keep us posted if the price can be lowered for a bigger order.
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Andyboy
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Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:14 pm

How about a half decent engineering company making an E46 pinion and rack bar fit an E30 casing? What's required are scrap E30 and E46 racks, take both apart and see what's what. Not 2.7 turns, but better than the standard one. FFS, A 1948 Morris Minor has 2.7 turns lock to lock!

Another alternative is to 'borrow' a quick rack conversion kit for a PAS rack such as a Sierra one and see if they can be made to fit - but modifying the E30 rack housing.

With regard to manifolds: these are not just about pipes to shove hot gas through, but effective gas extraction. The only properly developed manifolds were done so with a donor car (or engine) on a suitable dyno. Anything else is guesswork.
Last edited by Andyboy on Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Demlotcrew
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Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:19 pm

Andy, the problem is the pinon angle is so different between the two cases, its impossible.

If these were manual racks then it would be very easy and cheap to manufacture a custom rack, the cost is because of the assisted hydraulic valves on the pinion :(

Andrew
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Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:31 pm

Would you have the teeth straight or helical cut? The former would not be too hard.

Manual steering is pretty horrid so I guess PAS is a must. Have you contacted the likes of Rally Design? They do all kinds of things like the DIY Escort quick rack kits and DIY coil over strut conversions. There must be demand for E30 quick racks.
pacerpete
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Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:37 pm

Hottuning FTW ! :D
Demlotcrew
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Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:13 pm

Andyboy wrote:Would you have the teeth straight or helical cut? The former would not be too hard.

Manual steering is pretty horrid so I guess PAS is a must. Have you contacted the likes of Rally Design? They do all kinds of things like the DIY Escort quick rack kits and DIY coil over strut conversions. There must be demand for E30 quick racks.
Andy, i contacted everyone, this is the first company thats actually tooled up to do it, even Quaife couldnt do this (or were interested in even exploring). Most firms will make you a manual rack, but none of them can manufacture an assisted rack and thats where the cost/problem lies.

Andrew
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Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:14 pm

Andyboy wrote: There must be demand for E30 quick racks.
The is, hence why everyone goes for an E36/E46 rack but this is not good for RHD S14 cars.

A direct bolt in replacement with a decent ratio would eradicate the need for all the custom parts needed to fit the aforementioned racks though.
Last edited by bss325i on Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Demlotcrew
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Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:15 pm

Barry, thats not the only reason why its not good. :D
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Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:17 pm

Well of course, all that custom stuff looks jank in certain engine bays. :)
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Andyboy
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Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:43 pm

pacerpete wrote:Hottuning FTW ! :D
HOTTUNING KATALOG 2001

MANIFOLDS:

0088; BMW S14/Marina/Chevette (one size fits all)
bss325i
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Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:51 pm

:D
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Andyboy
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Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:04 pm

Actually, how would you get an HT Marina manifold to fit an S14- as the A and B Series are 3 port.

"Thees is no problem. I'll have a schmoke, weld on an exshtra bit of pipe and beat it to shape with one of my clogs."
Demlotcrew
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Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:52 pm

Andyboy wrote:Actually, how would you get an HT Marina manifold to fit an S14- as the A and B Series are 3 port.

"Thees is no problem. I'll have a schmoke, weld on an exshtra bit of pipe and beat it to shape with one of my clogs."
:rolling:
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Kos
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Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:00 am

the way i see it is you have options unlike some one who wants to ditch the steering box on an e24 and fit a rack 8O
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Demlotcrew
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Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:35 pm

Kos,

One of the M3 guys asked for a quote for a custom manifold to clear the rack and it came to £2000+ thats not an option in my opinion.

I think we might have 5 people already :D

1. Demlotcrew
2. scott180gtb
3. BBS16
4. Simon13
5. bss325i

To get this kick started we only need to pay a £350 deposit first winkeye

Andrew
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Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:48 pm

WOAH! Hold on a sec!

Not at £1350 mate!
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Demlotcrew
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Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:13 pm

Just to update everyone, ive setup a meeting with the technical team on thursday 29th at 3pm, if anyone wants to come along you are more than welcome. Im taking a stock E30 rack for them to inspect and also it gives me an opportunity to find out where the cost lies so I can see where we can reduce it somewhat!

Andrew
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martinpallot
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Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:45 am

Have you tried sellholm in sweden? 700 quid for an e30/e36 quick rack last time I checked. Im sure they would be capable of making some RHD ones.
Demlotcrew
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Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:01 pm

Just a quick update,

I met with one of the engineers and the sales manager today to discuss the racks. Before i went to them i stripped a stock late 4.0 rack and found a few nice and very positive cost saving surprises! (more to come next week).

After the meeting they took me round the shop floor, unfortunatly i was un able to to take any photos of the really nice products as Lotus, Aston and McLaren would NOT BE HAPPY!

The company is geared up for everything from small batches of work to full scale commercial super car quantities! Their machines run 24/7 and they are currently employing 51 machinists and engineers :eek: to meet their customers demands. They produce everything from cast arms, to hub axles, uprights, gearboxes, differentials, gear sets, racks, con rods etc etc etc winkeye

Anyway some photos!

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Look what i spotted being assembled!

Image

And the last one is of our E30 rack and pinion i left behind for them to work on.

Image

Guys this group buy is defiantly on, and after the meeting today i am really hopping the price will come down, how ever i wont know this for at least a week as they have to strip the valve block down to cost everything up.

:D
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Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:43 pm

Custom 5 stud hubs???
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Demlotcrew
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Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:11 pm

Rav335uk wrote:Custom 5 stud hubs???
One thing at a time Rav :wink:

But i think you are on to something there winkeye
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Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:18 pm

I'd be interested in hubs, price willing. :D
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