Custom Steering Racks

[Demlotcrew]

Hi Gents,

Just a feeler, how many people would be interested in a faster E30 rack?

I know a lot of people running the E36/E46 racks with custom linkages and hydraulics, but i cannot for the simple reason of manifold clearance and i can't be the only one.

I can easily get a custom manual rack made up and nail on a electric powered column but from my own experience and what everyone else has said this is not an option as the electric columns are plagued with horrible assist delays when switching direction and failed electric motors and plus I'm already running electric powered steering (hydraulic).

So who is looking for a quick, E30 hydraulic powered rack and what ratios would people be looking for?

1. Demlotcrew 2.7 lock to lock.
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[iceox]

how much would they be?

[Demlotcrew]

I have no idea, they wont be cheap, it was hard enough to find a company who would even consider doing this for me.

Im still in discussions over details such as price, the company has requested details of the rack, including photos and part numbers etc, after they receive this they should be in a better position to confirm a price.

Andrew

[Jim320i]

1. Demlotcrew 3.0 lock to lock.
2. Jim320i - Depending on price.
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[Tonyy93]

depending on price il be game

[scott180gtb]

1. Demlotcrew 3.0 lock to lock.
2. Jim320i - Depending on price.
3. scott180gtb
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[Demlotcrew]

Gents, good and bad news.

Good news, its possible to get a quicker rack and pinion made up for the stock E30 rack.
Bad news, its going to cost a little over £1350 per rack for a minimum of 5 racks to be made.

Who's in?

Andrew

[Jim320i]

In the words of Duncan Bannantyne... 'I'm out'

[bss325i]

Is that a fully built up rack Andrew or just the pinion gear and rack gear?

[DanThe]

Is that not for 5 racks then?

[Demlotcrew]

Barry, thats for a complete built up rack, you would need to supply a core E30 rack and you get one back which is 2.7-3.0 turns lock to lock.

Dan, thats the price for 5 racks. If i want one it will be £2.5k!

Andrew

[Duke137]

Sorry to hijack but Dan did you try that place I gave you the name of?

[Kos]

Andrew

Would it not be better for you to use an e46/36/z3 rack and spend dome if that money say £600 on a new manifold to clear it and a design wiich can improve power over your existing manifold ?

[Demlotcrew]

Dude i completely understand what you are saying, however S14's are pulse tuned and at best a decent custom manifold will not loose me any power, at worse (which is the reality) it will loose me some power and will cost the same as this custom rack.

S14, Alpina, RD manifolds are made from proper metal and will most certainly outlast any E30 and for my application a custom manifold will not survive the extreme conditions, just look at all of the turbo manifolds cracking and micro welding.

This way other E30 owners will have the opportunity to keep their cars completely original, ie Racing Dynamics, Alpina, RHD M3's etc, it just makes sense to make a new pinion and rack gear for the stock E30 casing made by ZF.

[Kos]

turbo manifolds are one thing, NA manifolds while they may get hot to not have the added weight causing stress to them

ok, a manifold may cost more that £600, probably nearer £1000 if you go some one shit hot to build it, like simpson race exhausts. i doubt they would have issues like you mention

also, your manifold is for a pretty much stock engine. would the carbon airbox, cams etc not affect they way the manifold should be tuned ?

if some one wants to keep their car stock, then they will. rack warts n all ?

[Demlotcrew]

Dude, My manifold glows when im on track, its made from very thick stainless and carries the weight of a middle box, it doesnt have the weight of a turbo but the vibrations of an S14 more than make up for it, there is no way a custom manifold (from anyone) would stand up to it, have you had a good look at the stock manifolds close up?

Karan spent in excess of £2300 for his S38 conversion for a manifold and exhaust and it was pretty poor compared with what BMW offer (you know exactly who made it).

With regards to pulse tuning, cams dont play that much of a part, in fact its mostly trial and error with the inlet and my Airbox is maximised fully for maximum power in any configuration i upgrade to, but it does assume im running an equivalent to a sport evo manifold on the other end, I simply cannot afford to take the risks by having a custom one made up which might loose me power, especially not when i have a Sport Evo manifold (one below the best for maximum power) and its worth a lot of money.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/270792657126? ... 515wt_1156

The problem is Kos as we all know, no one has yet (simpson included) have managed to make a manifold any where near the quality, finish, sound or performance and fit of the RD or Alpina manifolds, if they haven't managed to make one by now, whats the chances of them making one now? Zero.
Simon 13 would be interested, two RHD M3 owners are interested and i bet there would be quite a few owners from Australia that would be in for some too!

£1350 is a small price to pay for a brand new race quality rack and you get to keep the most beautiful manifold ever made (for E30's).

[DanThe]

Sorry to hijack but Dan did you try that place I gave you the name of?

No, lost all interest in it TBH. If someone gives me a rack and pinion I can get as many made as you like

[Demlotcrew]

Dan, thats where the bulk of the money is going, the draft and design, the computer simulation modelling and tool setup.

The company im talking to make racks for all Lotus cars and Aston's on a commercial basis and one of's for racing teams (which is why they are able to do this at all!).

I know of only one other company in Germany who would do the same job for around €1200, but since this company is only 15min away, it makes sense for me to work with them, this will keep costs down!

Andrew

[Kos]

andrew

£1350 is a lot for a rack, but so is £1000 is you spent it on a manifold. both will give you what you want, but consider this simpson do exhausts for a lot of race cars, they are considered to be the best so i'm sure they could do something for an s14

as for hayward scott........ i've have heard mixed reports about them as well.

the RD manifold for the e30 is really fucking sexy i prefer it to the BTB ones, the alpina ones are good as well, but and this is BIG but, we are 30 years forward now since they were made. i'm sure they can be improved on, but at what cost ?

i admire your dedication with your car to get it how you want it with no compromise, but i think you will need to make a compromise here some where. £1350 for a rack with a group discount its beyond what most people will pay. i'm sure thats double a dealer price for a new rack !

i think you'd be better off looking at manifold options to work with an e46 rack, rather than "exhaust" ( sorry couldnt resist ) your self trying to drum up support for this group buy.

[Demlotcrew]

The thing is Kos, £1000 on a manifold doesn't give me what i want, i still need to spend about £150-200 on a E46 rack with UJ's and hydraulic pipes (which i find to be substandard at best, running high pressure soft lines across the engine bay is out of the question). I would also need to spend about £100 on exhaust gaskets and possibly even more on the centre section, then theres all the carting around and all the labor costs simpsons would charge for rack removal and new rack instillation etc.

I agree, £1350 is way more than i want to spend, but if this is the only option, there has to be 5 people across the world that would want a very elegant and simple solution which involves little contribution or disruption their end. A new M3 rack from BMW is about £540+Vat back in 2002, god know what it costs now!

I dont have any manifold options as i see it.

[Kos]

The thing is Kos, £1000 on a manifold doesn't give me what i want, i still need to spend about £150-200 on a E46 rack with UJ's and hydraulic pipes (which i find to be substandard at best, running high pressure soft lines across the engine bay is out of the question). I would also need to spend about £100 on exhaust gaskets and possibly even more on the centre section, then theres all the carting around and all the labor costs simpsons would charge for rack removal and new rack instillation etc.

I agree, £1350 is way more than i want to spend, but if this is the only option, there has to be 5 people across the world that would want a very elegant and simple solution which involves little contribution or disruption their end. A new M3 rack from BMW is about £540+Vat back in 2002, god know what it costs now!

I dont have any manifold options as i see it.

speak to simpsons, what will it cost apart from a bit of time ?

also dont zero exhausts do a nice manifold for an S14 ?

[Demlotcrew]

Doesnt time cost money?

Ive not seen the Zero Exhausts manifold, have you got a link?

[Kos]

http://www.zeroexhausts.co.uk/BMW-E30-M3.htm


a few minutes making calls/sending emails wont hurt exploring other options

[Demlotcrew]

Oh i see what you meant! Of course it wont cost anything to make some calls!

Dude, everyone knows how badly the S14 works with a single pipe, just like the Miltek loosing 10-14bhp on a standard engine.

It looks like a decent manifold in the photos, Im sure ive seen this at Moseleys and the quality (you can tell from the weight) was not what i could fit to my car, i think we can agree thats reflected in the price.

[Kos]

no one is telling you to use a single pipe system

i just think you will have more luck getting a manifold built to your spec to work with a quicker rack thats "off the shelf"

if its just you that wants a rack from this group buy then its 2500 grand give of take

simpson exhausts can use inconel

[Demlotcrew]

If i dont get 5 people to commit then you're absolutely right, Ill have more luck in modifying my manifold.

However i still believe its in the greater good to try and get a rack group buy together as a lot more people would benefit - dont you think so?

[Kos]

yes, its good to offer help but sometimes be selfish

[bss325i]

Just to clear a few things up,

Alpina RHD manifolds were made by Janspeed of mild steel and rust and crack with age. They were not that great for power either over a standard cast 325i manifold.

BTB are a high quality manifold and exhaust manufacturer and also make manifolds for race application and/or one offs.

Standard RHD P/S steering racks from BMW were £1020+Vat and are now NLA!!!!

So the price of £1350 doesn't seem so bad in relation but it is still a lot.

I would be interested at about half that.

[DanThe]

Im sure a new E46 rack is something like 2 bags now, BMW plss me off

[Jon_Bmw]

I think the biggest problem with getting someone to make a 'thick walled manifold' is few people actually have the 'right' tooling on a bender. I have put 'right' in inverted commas as 1.2 and 1.5 wall are what is almost industry standard in aftermarket performance exhausts. So it makes sense that companies pretty much only have tooling to produce 1.2 and 1.5 wall thickness tube. It certainly is the case for us. I suspect I could find out next week which companies do keep the larger wall tooling(it is out there!).

You could almost certainly make a better manifold for the s14, but it would cost a LOT more to develop than a £1350 rack I can assure you.

With cad time, jig costs, dynamometer setup, dynamometer time, mapping cost(custom ECU as well), manifold redesign, more dyno time, more changes I bet you wouldn't see much change out of 15-20 grand. Then you need to find someone with all those facilities. We are one of the few, but no thick wall tube tooling, and definately no willing e30 customers!

The rack cost doesn't seem too bad for a one off batch of 5 to be honest.

[scott180gtb]

Just out of interest have you asked the cost reduction if a size able order was placed. Try 50 for example.

Scott

[Demlotcrew]

Thanks guys!

I was hoping the cost would be considerably less but because of the time involved to make a brand new custom gear from scratch in such small volumes its simply not possible to get it any lower! Personally im very happy to go along with £1350 as there is currently no E46 rack thats any where near 2.7 lock to lock that im looking for, so even with a custom manifold im only slightly gaining on rack speed, not really worth changing the manifold for!

Jon, thanks for the input and validation, i have yet to see a manifold for good money that uses good quality stainless and is thick walled like the S14's, and like you point out, its not possible to improve up on it, even despite glowing reputation of the exhaust fabricator. Ive seen it a million times, ive been in the car game too long to know what you can and cannot change without certainty. I know someone who does consultancy work for Pro drive and hes developed a manifold for S60 (E39 M5) at a total cost getting close to 40k and hes yet to sell 10!

Scott, that price was based on 5 racks as on off's im pretty sure that if 50 were made the price would be around the £800 mark. But then we still need 50 Core racks to begin with so that might be another £30-40 on top, but i certainly would like to think there would be demand, i have yet to see anyone offer fast powered racks for the RHD market. By my calculations if we got 10 on the initial group buy it would drop the cost to £1150 right away!

It seems that if you want assisted steering then your only option is a fast manual rack with an electric column.

Im very glad this has had such a good response!

[Jon_Bmw]

Mr Vanmanannnnnanannananannn. He has my trade plates at the moment!

I would be chasing people who use their RHD s14 engined e30 in competition. They are the people who will stump up the dosh I guess.

[Demlotcrew]

BTB are a high quality manifold and exhaust manufacturer and also make manifolds for race application and/or one offs.

Dude, without being really horrible, i would have to disagree with your points here, ive seen their work, its no better than my local rice specialist who charges pennies! Its not enough to weld a few pre cut and pre shaped pieces and call it a manifold.

Im pretty sure that if you miss out on these racks you will regret it more than not having a decent manifold!

Just like Simon13 said, on M20's its the manifold or the rack, you cannot have both and most people will opt for the rack over the manifold after experiencing response and feel of faster steering.

[bss325i]

BTB are a high quality manifold and exhaust manufacturer and also make manifolds for race application and/or one offs.

Dude, without being really horrible, i would have to disagree with your points here, ive seen their work, its no better than my local rice specialist who charges pennies! Its not enough to weld a few pre cut and pre shaped pieces and call it a manifold.

Well i have to disagree with you as i actually have their work on my car (for the last 4 years!) and it has given a dyno proven power and torque gain with no signs of deterioration of the construction. I would like to see you locals rice specialists work if you are going to make claims like that Andrew.

Have a look at BTB's website if you haven't all ready. Im not saying they are the best but they are very good.

Im pretty sure that if you miss out on these racks you will regret it more than not having a decent manifold!

Just like Simon13 said, on M20's its the manifold or the rack, you cannot have both and most people will opt for the rack over the manifold after experiencing response and feel of faster steering.

Who said anything about missing out on a rack?

As for it being either a rack or manifold with an M20, thats not true.

I currently have a BTB2 which does not clear an E36/E46/Z3 rack but they developed the BTB3 to clear the rack and several zoners have this set up so the best of both worlds.

I dont want an E36/E46/Z3 rack as i dont want all the home made pipes, linkage and spaces sullying the look of my engine bay.

I would like a quicker rack though not that i find the standard one that bad TBH but then i dont track my E30.