2.9 stroker pinging

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gooner1
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Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:24 am

Sorry to jump in here folks But Hairy's reappearance and posts might
just be a timely Godsend for me. As a complete and utter ignoramus, in all things Engine build wise,
i bring absolutely nothing to the table.
ATM i'm attempting a 2.8 build using an early, 1986, 325i bottom end, an 885 head that has been refaced, pressure tested and cleaned, the H/C Pistons from the same Block attached to 320i conrods. The Crank is from an M52 328I.
As far as i know the bottom end has never been skimmed and using the crudest of measuring instruments, tape measure it seems to be just over 206 mm.
Last week i trial fitted the Crank and a Piston with a 320i rod. On turning the crank i found i
had no interference issues. Below is a pic of the piston at what i believe to be TDC.


Image
Not the greatest pic but it's possible to see it comes over the top of the block.
Now, and this is where my ignorance really begins to shine, if i;ve been following all this correctly there is an advantage in having the block decked/skimmed by 0.5mm.
This would mean having to use a thicker Head gasket, yes :?:
I wont pretend to understand the majority of what has been said on here, and i have neither the knowledge or tools to measure squish bands etc, but i do understand that Detonation is not a good thing and from what i can make out the use of 320i conrod is not the best possible way to go, but apart from custom Pistons, which i can not afford, is there any alternative :?:
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HairyScreech
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Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:51 pm

ahh the reason for the block decking 0.5mm is that the combined height of rod and crank and piston is 0.5mm less on the 2.8 set up.

as initially we have:
75mm/2 + 135mm + ~40mm = 212.5mm
and with a 2.8 we have:
84mm/2 + 130mm + ~40mm = 212mm

this is because the stroke is 4.5mm longer and we use a rod that is 5mm shorter to make up for it.

as far as gaining advantage from skimming the block it all depends on your target. if your just after ~200hp then there really is no point and the cash is better spent other places.
if your trying to wring every last pony from the build then its a worthwhile task as it will increase the compression and bring the chamber back towards its ideal shape.


with your build rob i wouldnt worry too much, you should see a nice 200hp engine that will last, most of the stuff we are talking about here is for the real hp junkies.

p.s. iv already had a look at your thread, only about halfway through it though.
2.8 development thread http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=170822

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e301988325i
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Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:55 pm

The block can be skimmed 0.5mm to retain the original relative position of the piston in the block at TDC. It's not neccessary for the build itself unless your block is somehow damaged of course. skimmin will raise the compression if the standard gasket is used although a thicker gaset for a rebuilt engine is available. I would either skim the block 0.5mm to raise the compression (you won't be into detonation territory) or don't to retain the stock compression, either way I'd use the standard gasket.

The reason for the skimmed block is:
M52's 9mm extra stroke put's the piston (9mm divided by 2) 4.5mm further up the bore
& the 320rods bring the piston 5mm further down the bore meaning the piston is 0.5mm lower in the block at TDC after the stroker conversion.

I worked it out previously and found that the 2.8L stroker ended up making exactly (within 0.1:1) the same compression ratio as the original 2.5, because the extra stroke was offset at TDC by the 0.5mm lower piston which in itself is very convenient, this assumes no head or block skim, standard gasket.

Ps) I have a crank and rods waiting for my 2.8 stroker!!!!
I said:

Can anyone suggest how to test if the boot lights are staying on with the boot shut?

e30topless said:

lock the wife in there
HairyScreech
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Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:11 pm

beat you too it :woohoo: :tongue:


for compression ratios with and with out skiming see here:
HairyScreech wrote:
which means as long as the new set up matches the stack height of the old set up then you cant go far wrong.

as for the 0.5mm difference when building 2.8s with 320 rods im thinking this is THE main cause of them making less power, i have done the CR math with the two different piston designs and then accounted for the 0.5mm skim and it gives the results below:
Image

now im thinking when andyboy wrote the article he forgot to take into account the 0.5mm and the values in the wiki are true for a block that has been decked 0.5mm, an easy mistake to make.

i think the only reason this has not been a problem and we havent had 2.8 detonating all over the shop is that your still looking at a relatively low compression ratio at 9.3:1 and the pressure build up in these motors with slack squish bands isnt enough to light off the fuel in these areas..
2.8 development thread http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=170822

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e301988325i
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Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:48 pm

Well done, I reworded my response a couple of times so it made more sense 8)
I said:

Can anyone suggest how to test if the boot lights are staying on with the boot shut?

e30topless said:

lock the wife in there
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gooner1
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Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:21 pm

Thanks to both of you for responding :thumb:
I shall continue lurking and reading. :cool:
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bss325i
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Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:29 pm

I have been having thoughts and making noises about building a 2.7 M20 but now beginning to think a 2.8 would be a better bet it make a square engine with a bore of 84mm and a stroke of 84mm.

What i dont want is to use 130mm rods due to the rod ratio issue and the resulting side load issues. This then means custom pistons (which i would have used on a 2.7 build anyway) and i also want a static comp ratio of around 11:1.

Need to do some more research on speccing pistons though.

Why are the valve cut outs so bad on the MM pistons? Obviously i have no need for them as the belt would be changed early at all times.
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ezagood
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Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:48 pm

unfortunatly i dont have the figures now as i threw my MCN away but the new ducati has a crazy rod ratio. how come a brand new engine can run with this ratio but we are all worried about a ratio that apparently is already less than an m3? this is a question not just a statment.
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Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:49 pm

The 2.8 cranks are so much more plentiful than the eta/TD cranks these days, it'd be rude not to.

Sounds like you're planning on doing something similar to what the OP had in mind, a nice high(ish) static comp, with custom rods to suit 135mm rods. Whilst he was there it obviously seemed easy enough to change the bore to 85mm whilst ordering forged pistons, and obviously therefore increasing capacity to 2.9l. Take heed though, get some pistons made like ezagood? has done with the correct shaped crown for the 885 head.

As far as rods are concenrned, as per screech's thread the m52 2.8 rods are considerably lighter 135mm rods than the m20 ones. m50 ones are lighter yet, but the m52 ones are also considerably stronger (ive just bought some off ebay actually, £40 posted). Im not too clued up on as to why the MM deep valve reliefs are 'so bad', but I cant really see the point in them. A silly way of getting around a very easily fixed problem - just check your belt as per bmw states, and as youve stated. I can't see why it would ever be much of an issue, not enough to warrant designing one of the most important engine components around anyway.

Slightly OT, but if anybody is thinking of rebuilding a 2.7, i have a set of the early high comp eta pistons, 130mm rods and brand new rings for sale. With an 885 head, this would give a nice CR of 10:1. Use the 731 head and this would be raised even more (cba working out by how much but would be due a decrease of about 4cc's [to be confirmed once I get my bloody replacement burette off ebay]).
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Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:54 pm

bss325i
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Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:05 pm

One things for sure, i would not be using M20 135mm rods. M52 or possible some forged H section rods but that might be over kill for the rev limit i have in mind.
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Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:08 pm

HairyScreech wrote:as for the 0.5mm difference when building 2.8s with 320 rods im thinking this is THE main cause of them making less power...
This is exactly what I was thinking when I discovered the difference a couple of weeks ago.

As far as heads go then..bare with me..

I will be using the flat top pistons the OP has donated me, but using the 2.7 crank which will drop the CR considerably. Are you suggesting, that even though the 731 has a combustion chamber more suited to the flat top piston, the 885 has more 'potential' (in terms of porting and valve sizes) than the 731 head does? Is it a waste of time investing time and money into highly porting the 731 head and fitting larger valves (as there isn't simply enough meat)? You've worried me now by talking about the squish clearance using the flat top and the 885 head (detonation wise), as I will be planning on supercharging the engine at some point (though it will be running on LPG).

Ignore my banter if you've yet to finish uni (and get back to work :P). I get my degree results tomorrow :eek:
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Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:11 pm

bss325i wrote:One things for sure, i would not be using M20 135mm rods. M52 or possible some forged H section rods but that might be over kill for the rev limit i have in mind.
Id have to agree with your overkill statement, unless you plan on some special power. I think the money (a considerable amount!) would be better spend elsewhere, though you do already have a BTB :P. A lot of BHP is made or lost in the head with the m20, £500?+ would see you with some nice modifications.
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bss325i
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Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:20 pm

A loose idea of the spec i have thought about,

TD 81mm Crank, now probably an M52B28 84mm crank
135mm rods M52 or forged
Custom pistons with static comp of 11:1 and a bore of 84.25 mm.
BTB2 manifold which i have already
885 Head worked with exhaust ports opened out and inlets port matched, valve guide smoothed and 3 angle valve seats.
Metric mechanic heavy duty rockers (Billet steel again are overkill and mighty costly!)
Cam.

Camshaft i am undecided on. Was thinking schrick 284/272 or poss 288/288.

7250 rev limit?
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Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:22 pm

gooner1 wrote:Now, and this is where my ignorance really begins to shine, if i;ve been following all this correctly there is an advantage in having the block decked/skimmed by 0.5mm.
IMO, if it was me I would have it skimmed. Increasing the CR (to a nice value), decreasing the squish band clearance, and ensuring the block is flat can't be a bad thing...providing you can afford it. Saying that, it can't be that expensive (ive never had it done, though I have just been quoted £100+ VAT for boring an m20 out to suit oversized forged pistons...cant be anywhere near this price surely?). Use the standard HG whichever you decide to do
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Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:26 pm

bss325i wrote:A loose idea of the spec i have thought about,

TD 81mm Crank, now probably an M52B28 84mm crank
135mm rods M52 or forged
Custom pistons with static comp of 11:1 and a bore of 84.25 mm.
BTB2 manifold which i have already
885 Head worked with exhaust ports opened out and inlets port matched, valve guide smoothed and 3 angle valve seats.
Metric mechanic heavy duty rockers (Billet steel again are overkill and mighty costly!)
Cam.

Camshaft i am undecided on. Was thinking schrick 284/272 or poss 288/288.

7250 rev limit?
Sounds like a nice build, but why only 84.25mm pistons considering you'd be going custom? Comparing to 85mm here, which would increase it from a 2.8 to 2.9 (you know what they say about replacing displacement..)
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bss325i
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Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:32 pm

I had to explain my reasoning behind this on another thread. Basically i want to retain plenty of meat in between the bores for safety and if i ever need to bore the block again. Unlikely i know but its more a peace of mind thing. The .25mm is just to have a fresh bore for the increased stroke.
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Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:41 pm

I see your reasoning, but people have used 86mm+ pistons before (verging on failure though, but doable) so I think 85mm is a nice compromise between wall thickness and displacement. Not to mension it would also be nicely oversquare (potential to be higher revving) and you could squeeze bigger valves in. Either way, with that spec if wouldnt be boring to drive, would it.
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Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:55 pm

Certainly something to think about.

Would it be worth going hemi with the combustion chamber? Obviously with the piston to match.
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Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:58 pm

HairyScreech wrote:and as for removing material from the head, you can gain 5cc by making it into a hemi head as i tried out, but by all accounts this is not worth doing
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Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:00 pm

sorry, should have mensioned I'm assuiming he's referring to when using a piston to suit. I'll have to read through Screech's thread again to refresh my memory
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HairyScreech
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Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:16 am

well i was looking at the alpina heads and working off what they had done, i cant at this point guarantee that alpina didnt pull some little trick that makes their hemi work, but even if they did then we just dont know about it atm so cant replicate it an we are in the same boat as before.

the big (and untested) benefit seems to be from the valve seat and throat, and i have a few suggested designs for those.

I dont like the cut outs on the MM pistons due to the size of cavity they leave in the combustion chamber, they are nice places for unburned mix to hide in and create bad emissions, they also are going to be the last place the fuel mixture burns due to quenching of the mixture and their distance from the spark plug (especially on the exhaust side)
What this will cause is a pocket of unburned fuel in a relatively hot area of the engine (as the piston is a hot bit and especially on the exhaust valve side where the red hot exhaust valve extends into the pocket)
This pocket of mixture is also under a lot of pressure and as we know hot fuel under enough pressure detonates.

basically in a high comp engine its a recipe for detonation.

i take this fron their site.
Too much advance
Some folks also tend to think that running more advance will make their car go faster. The combination of Surface Turbulence and high compression (10.0:1) creates a rather fast burn cycle in the combustion chamber. The timing specifications listed in our tuning guide are for optimal (?) performance and will sound rather RETARDED.

notice also on the m20 engine spec sheet how all of the deep valve pocket pistons are 10:1 and have the suggestion above and the engines using the bowled normal pocket pistons are happy at 10.5:1 and 11:1. :wink:

also considering all of their engines are full balls out built motors they make quite weak figures.
all of then have custom pistons, lightweight rods, a "hi-flow 16% better head" and 280+ duration cams, but give the following results.

2822cc - 205hp giving 72.64hp/l for $6495 that a nice $31.68 per hp
2926cc - 220hp giving 75.18hp/l for $8295 that a nice $37.70 per hp
3121cc - 230hp giving 73.69hp/l for $8295 that a nice $36.06 per hp
2926cc rally - 225hp giving 76.89hp/l for $8489 that a nice $37.72 per hp
2966cc rally - 230hp giving 76.76hp/l for $8695 that a nice $37.80 per hp
3121cc rally - 240hp giving 76.89hp/l for $8995 that a nice $37.47 per hp

dont forget that sump modifications (baffling and windage tray) are $750 extra

now consider we are getting 210hp for about £2k in the uk using stock pistons at non ideal height, stock 320 rods, a 270 cam, a stock head, no balancing.

starts to make the above look a bit shite. just think what going turbo would yield for that nine thousand dollars.

if this sounds a little hard on metric mechanic then, i wont start on some of the other things in there catalog that make no engineering or mechanical sense.
(i could of course give it to some of the real cynical bastards at the uni to rip to bits but i dont think they would get past the belt breakages, head bolts or surface turbulence sections of the catalog without imploding.)
2.8 development thread http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=170822

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HairyScreech
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Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:27 am

hmmm sounds like they know the above and still persist with the design anyway.

also taken from their site:
"makes this unit a full 3 Liter Rally Engine. Minus
the deep valve pockets, these pistons have better flame travel so compression can be increased"
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Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:02 am

How much do Alpina charge for a 210bhp 2.7L?

Ditch the stock AFM, get a decent 6 branch, remap, free flowing intake and it opens up the MM engine big time.

the quest for power from the M20 is not that difficult.

JE piston with stock crown and good CR 11:1
Bigger Crank
Good 6 branch manifold (BTB, RD etc)
Free flowing Exhaust
280 odd cam
Ditch AFM and proper tune
No need to touch the intake side of the head too much they are good for 290hp its the intake manifold that makes 250-260bhp a difficult ceiling to break through ( a big cc M20 cammed to the brink with stock manifold still won't make peak power more than 6500rpm. The exhaust port can be improved without too much difficulty.
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bss325i
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Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:53 am

So are all those MM engines quoted power figures done using a standard ex manifold and an AFM on standard motronic?
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Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:12 pm

bss325i wrote:So are all those MM engines quoted power figures done using a standard ex manifold and an AFM on standard motronic?
yes, i think just port match regarding manifolds which aint gonna do much. They have since done MAF conversion thru MarkD and also offer a fancy manifold based on the standard one.

why would you go custom pistons and not get the buggest crank you can find i.e. M54B30 not a whole lot extra cost. You'll have much better midrange even if proportionally you won't get the same gains topend. A properly chosen setup will still make more power.

Regarding rod ratio BMW built a 24V M engine with 89.6mm crank and 135mm rod the S52B32 which is argueably not a real S engine but never the less far more advanced than the M20. If you want an engine that will do another 150k then maybe a slightly longer rod may be in order.
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Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:00 pm

reggid wrote:
bss325i wrote:So are all those MM engines quoted power figures done using a standard ex manifold and an AFM on standard motronic?
yes, i think just port match regarding manifolds which aint gonna do much. They have since done MAF conversion thru MarkD and also offer a fancy manifold based on the standard one.

why would you go custom pistons and not get the buggest crank you can find i.e. M54B30 not a whole lot extra cost. You'll have much better midrange even if proportionally you won't get the same gains topend. A properly chosen setup will still make more power.

Regarding rod ratio BMW built a 24V M engine with 89.6mm crank and 135mm rod the S52B32 which is argueably not a real S engine but never the less far more advanced than the M20. If you want an engine that will do another 150k then maybe a slightly longer rod may be in order.
Thats interesting. Some decent gains to be had over their quoted figures then.

As for myself going for a M54B30 crank, that would mean a bore of say 85mm and a stroke of 89.6mm making it under square. By this logic then its less likely to rev well in comparison to a square or over square engine.

85mm more and 84mm stroke is slightly over square and i nice 2.9 displacement.
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Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:55 am

what makes an engine rev well is the Torque and inertia of the engine and drivetrain.

Basic physics

F=MA

or

A= F/M

but we are talking in rotational system

Torque = Mass moment Inertia x Angular Acceleration

Angular Acceleration = Torque / Mass moment Inertia

When people talk about undersquare and oversquare and free revving they are usually looking from a development point of view but since the head and bore are pretty much the same the valve sizes are constrained to be the same so the upper limit of power is the same.

A big stroker will be happiest running at lower rpms than a smaller engine and the torque at higher rpm (>6k) will be lower than at 4-6k. This may seem to not be as rev happy at the topend but that is because of the boosted midrange a properly chosen system will still be better than a 2.8 at any rpm.
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