Worlds longest Resto, my C2 2.7 19/3/18 Vent guage action

[DanThe]

Its a quick way to write off a decent handbrake console

[Dezzy]

May as well screw a CB in there and call it a taxi

[pegase747]

What's the difference between the B3 2.7 and the C2 2.7?

nothing, if anything we got the better deal as we had non cat engines which made a bit more power.

The real reason is the german customers felt the C designation was inferior to the B, they changed the C2's to B3's when the E30 was facelifted to plastic bumpers

So the LHD chrome bumper 2.7s are C2's like ours.

Mo i've got the old article of that very car in BMW car mag from a long time ago, 2004 ish. Never thought mine would end up like that! Silver stripes chaps.

Well my B3 has been delivered without any Kat, it was possible in France, as it was not mandatory yet in 1988, when the B3 took over from the C2.

the other BIG difference is that the UK C2s are BMW 325i which are then transformed into C2s using a box of Alpina parts coming from Buchloe.

The non-UK C2 followed the same process but were assembled in Buchloe, so they came as complete 325i, were dimsanteled, and rebuilt as C2s.

The B3, with an agreement with BMW, were incomplete 325i delivered to buchloe, and then Alpina, from almost bare shells, were building B3s.
i have to say that the quality of assembly of my B3 is way above any BMW e30 I had before...

The Kat B3 made 204HP, the non Kat C2 made 210HP. My non Kat B3 made 210HP when new, hopefully still make some now...

Pierre

[pegase747]

The B3 2.7 Katalysator and C2 with the catalyst use the standard 325i camshaft.

Wrong !
Only the swiss Alpina C2 2.7 and B3 2.7 with Kat used the standard BMW camshaft.
all other B3s and C2s 2.7 ( kat or non kat ) use the same Alpina 268 deg camshaft...

Pierre

[Simon13]

Alas some very very nice people have shaken the money tree liberally over my head and my pockets are full!

i have been good! i may now have finally some dollars to get this engine built! which means this marathon could finally be heading for an MOT. don't be silly your all thinking, there some nice cars forsale that could distract me!

[oguz327]

Come on Si, 2 x C2 and a 328 not enough?
Or would you get something to replace the E36?

[jonb]

Simon im shocked this car is not done yet?

You should get it finished soon or people will think this is the most self indulgent thread ever! hold on.....

Seriously though why has it took you so long to rebuild the alpina?

[Simon13]

money and time jon neither of which comes easily as you'll be aware. Its cost me a bloody fortune.

[bmwe30mtech]

Will be worth the fortune spent and hours put in though, this will be one of the nicest and most 'proper' examples arround.

Looking forward to seeing the engine build.

[Simon13]

At last! must be 4 months? well finally was able to pick the crank up from the machine shop





So this is the original crank to the engine and has now been reground on the mains and bigs. They've supplied shells to suit KS bigs and NE mains which i've never heard of?!

Also the bigs are all the same theres no shell for the rod and a different one for the cap. The man in the shop assures me they are ok so who am i to argue.

Sad thing is the crank is in the last chance saloon now as the mains were ground for +0.5mm shells. So no meat left now! Bigs were better and just +0.25mm are needed.

So he charged me £110 to grind the crank including the thrust - which he said was badly worn.

£77 for the main end shells with thrust!

£37 for the big ends

So with the VAT £270 all in. Which i'm fairly pleased about as it would cost you more for just the shells from BMW let alone a regrind thrown in for a good measure so happy campers again.





40 years in the game gets you a lovely finish like this for all that oil to stick too! Hes cleaned it too so the oil ways are mega clean awsome.


I want to get the whole bottom end balanced but first i to sort out which conrods to use?





Nice selection, on the right an 135mm M20 rod. Middle is 135mm M50 and on the left is an M52 140mm rod. Now the gudgeon pin fits the M52 rod and they fell a bit lighter than the M20 ones?

So my questions are A) are M54 rods even lighter B) do they come 135mm long? C) is the little end shell the same size as an M20 rod? Not the end of the world as i could get my dad to make up some custom ones.

Or which M52 engine uses a 135mm rod? As a 2.5 one doesn't

All go! well back in the right direction. This bottom end is going to be tiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. So with a lightend flywheel some slightly lighter rods pina pistons and a full balance this should be one smooth puppy that will rev a bit more freely. Can't wait

[DanThe]

M54 rods are the same as M52 Si, no lighter, IIRC M52 rods are getting on for 100g lighter than M20 leaded items

I have 135mm M52 rods if your in the market for some

[DanThe]

Here you go, I weighed some the other week -

M52 135mm -



M21 130mm-



120g! I can feel the power already

[Simon13]

I knew you'd come to the rescue. What do you want for a set Dan? thats going to be over half a kilo off the moving parts which is a fair old wack!

That will be over 2.5 kilos lost on the bottom end with the flywheel which is alot i guess

i keep meaning to weigh some on the cooking scales!

[Duke137]

I looked at all those wires today and thought Jesus f**kin Christ. Forgive my rudeness, but the show will go on!

I totally sympathise, I was thinking about my wiring earlier today and thinking along the same lines

Nice project man, a worthy turd to work on

[Rodderz]

Why not keep it original?

[Simon13]

most of what i've done that isn't standard is because i've used tried tested it on other cars before i've done it to this, and found to like it over standard. This won't be a daily and i'm sure i won't be driving it like a gay at 25mph everywhere

you can't buy an original camshaft, the original head was missing. Everything can be improved a touch without diluting the original feel of the car. I know i won't change my mind on lighter rods and flywheel.

[Andyboy]

Lighter rods mean safer high rpm and less load on the big ends - the big end bolts will certainly get an easier ride.
I would get the crank tuftrided - that regrind will have broken through the heat treatment it had at the factory.

[powelly]

Lighter rods mean safer high rpm and less load on the big ends - the big end bolts will certainly get an easier ride.
I would get the crank tuftrided - that regrind will have broken through the heat treatment it had at the factory.

You have a point, especially as this crank is in the last chance saloon, I seem to remember from college though nitriding is the better method of case hardening though as it penetrates deeper in to the substrate. If memory serves, tuftriding involves emersing the part in some "black stuff" and then cooking it, this surface then has to be machined. Si, your old man will know all about this more so than I.

[Royalratch]

You can get it nitrided in GOLD too. It's used in hi-end motorcycle fork stanchions for super smooth super hard surface finishs.

DLC is harder still, the hardest out there but pricey (Diamond Like Coating) but it's all about the temps.

A build of this detail and cost, it seems madness to put a crank in there that's on it's last legs.

[Demlotcrew]

Seriously guys

No disrespect to Simons engine, but he's building an M20! One of the most agricultural engines still on the road today, i know people who only use second hand oil from their more expensive cars and these engines are still producing very good power on the rollers.

RE hardening the crank, well thats a first for me, I've yet to see any BMW crank thats had its journals hardened and as for DLC I've never seen a DLC coated crank, I have valves, i have buckets coated with DLC and I've seen some cams with it too, but never a crank!

Si, don't worry about using a crank thats on its last legs, many race teams undersized their cranks and ran wafer thin shells to gain a quarter to half a mm on the rod length, this is what BMW did with the S38, it has very very very thin shells. Some of the teams also ran very large gaps between the crank and shells, not only does this reduce drag and friction loss it also enabled the journals and shells to stay much cooler, these two parts of the engine under normal running conditions should never touch!

You're doing the right thing, just keep a level head and your feet firmly on the ground. You should sail through all the muck.

Andrew

[Royalratch]

But he's not racing.

[Demlotcrew]

But he's not racing.

my point exactly.

[Royalratch]

What I meant was, race teams can rebuild their engines regularly and race engines go bang fairly frequently, hence they can afford to take the kinds of 'risks' you outlined.

[Speedtouch]

Quite an interesting article on crank hardening here:
http://www.crankshaftco.com/steel-crank ... ening.html

It's well worth getting some treatment done to prolong the original crank's life, I'd have thought.

[Demlotcrew]

What I meant was, race teams can rebuild their engines regularly and race engines go bang fairly frequently, hence they can afford to take the kinds of 'risks' you outlined.

What risks is Simon taking with his engine?

[Demlotcrew]

Quite an interesting article on crank hardening here:
http://www.crankshaftco.com/steel-crank ... ening.html

It's well worth getting some treatment done to prolong the original crank's life, I'd have thought.

Can i draw your attention to this;

"Most stock OEM steel crankshafts have been induction hardened. This is a low cost process in which the surface is heated by a high frequency alternating magnetic field that generates heat in the crank's surface quickly before being quenched. The depth of this hardening process is around .060 - .080. Because of uneven heating and cooling, this crankshaft hardening process creates stress within the crankshaft. While it is an ideal hardening process for stock applications, it is less then favorable for high performance racing applications."

Simon has ground his crank no more than 0.0195" (0.05mm)

In any case, BMW Nitride their cranks and the dept of penetration is .010 - .030" well within tolerances.

Nothing to worry about. Ive never had to have a steel cast crank hardened again after a regrind.

Andrew

[powelly]

I guess, thinking about it, it has only been ground to the max BMW undersize, one would therefore assume that they had taken in to account the depth of the case hardening, as a belt and braces approach I still don't think it would hurt, I guess cost is a big factor, how much do these processes cost.

[Royalratch]

What I meant was, race teams can rebuild their engines regularly and race engines go bang fairly frequently, hence they can afford to take the kinds of 'risks' you outlined.

What risks is Simon taking with his engine?

Err, none. I said race teams can afford to run on the limit in search of power.

Regarding this, I just can't understand why you wouldn't source the best crank you could get for a resto of this detail. It is a 2.7 also.

Let's ignore BMW's recommendations anyway.

[Demlotcrew]

If Simon is not taking any risks, if the crank has only been reground to the maximum undersize and this is well within the hardening depths whats the problem?

Have you tried to source a genuine Alpina 2.7 crank lately?

[Speedtouch]

I guess cost is a big factor, how much do these processes cost.

Around £77, according to this site:
http://www.specialisedengines.co.uk/fiestaxr2/dir7.html

[powelly]

Doesn't strike me as a lot, you pays your money you take your choice I suppose.

[Demlotcrew]

Without being really pedantic, those prices are from 2000 and are for a tiny 4cyl crank.

If Simon is really interested i can find out how much it would cost for a new Nitride treatment.

[Royalratch]

If Simon is not taking any risks, if the crank has only been reground to the maximum undersize and this is well within the hardening depths whats the problem?

Have you tried to source a genuine Alpina 2.7 crank lately?

Re-read the dudes posts.

[Demlotcrew]

who's dude?

[darkchild]

who's dude?