Compbrake Components

All the info you need to race E30's

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GeoffBob
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Wed May 18, 2011 9:28 pm

To conclude, the trick to extracting maximum deceleration from your brakes is to ensure that your front and rear tyres reach their threshold of traction at the same time. Problem is, with the weight of the car shifting progressively forward the harder you brake the more difficult it is to get this to happen. Choosing your bias such that rear traction fraction tails upwards at the last minute (forward biased) implies that the rear traction fraction will be substantially less (contributing less to the cars deceleration) at lesser pedal forcer, and this makes no sense. Adjusting the bias rearwards such that the front and rear traction fraction are reasonably similar at low pedal force will result in the rear traction fraction rapidly overtaking the front traction fraction when you press down hard upon the pedal, causing the rear wheels to break traction.

Clearly, what we require is a mechanism that effectively adjusts the brake bias as a function of the cars deceleration in order that the front and rear traction-fraction curves remain reasonably similar to each other. While not a function of acceleration, a brake proportioning valve is a device that regulates the rate-of-change of hydraulic fluid pressure to the rear callipers as a function of the rear hydraulic line pressure. Since the deceleration of the car is a function, ultimately, of the fluid pressure, the effect is similar. A brake proportioning valve is an adjustable mechanical device that is typically installed in the rear fluid line between the rear M/C and the rear calliper. It is usually installed within reach of the driver in order that it may be adjusted while driving. The graph below shows the effect of including a brake proportioning valve whose ”aknee pressure”a has been adjusted to 500psi. It should be noted that the inclusion of a brake proportioning valve has a significant effect upon the choice of M/C sizes. In this case a 3/4”a M/C is installed in-line with the front callipers, and a 5/8”a M/C in-line with the rear. The bias-bar is adjusted 55% rearwards.

As in the case of the previous graph, you can still only expect to achieve roughly 1.1g of deceleration (largely dictated by the tyres). However in the latter case it will take approximately 8kg more of pedal force to achieve this deceleration. The advantage, however, is in that both the front and rear axles contribute almost equally to the deceleration of the car across the full range of deceleration.

Take note that the maximum required pedal force will drop from roughly 50kg to 35kg in the event that the stock 4.25:1 ratio pedal is replaced with a 6:1 ratio pedal.

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"It is amazing how many drivers, even at the Formula-1 level, think that brakes are for slowing the car down." - Mario Andretti
Motorhole
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Wed May 18, 2011 9:33 pm

Geoff, your excel calcs are correct, I dicked up the last bit by working out pedal input force & master cylinder size in a roundabout way. Of course this is backed up by your most excellent Matlab charts! That's definitely useful information, I will try to get a hold of Matlab and take the time to learn it as soon as I can.

I got a hold of my pedal box/transfer bar tonight and took a video:

This shows that the brake pedal will hit the throttle linkage before the pivot hits the transfer bar. Note the pedal is at the top of it's motion when I lift it up in this video. Still, there's not a great deal of movement.

Jason, I do like your setup! Unfortunately that's still beyond my budget constraints once master cylinders, reservoirs and fabrication have been added onto the cost of the pedal box. Essentially my question is, am I best going with the tried and tested clio servo, E30 MS and bias valve setup? Or is this Compbrake twin MS setup (or something else within a £250 budget) worth the bother? Bearing in mind any in-car fabrication would require transporting the car :(
GeoffBob
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Wed May 18, 2011 9:43 pm

One last thing Motorhole, judging from the above results, your chosen brake callipers are more than sufficiently large for your chosen application. Even with the stock 4.25:1 ratio pedal it will be humanly possible to operate the brakes. I would, however, recommend a 6:1 pedal ratio to make the car just that little bit easier to operate.

Ta, I'll have a look at that video when I am back at work in the morning.
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"It is amazing how many drivers, even at the Formula-1 level, think that brakes are for slowing the car down." - Mario Andretti
GeoffBob
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Wed May 18, 2011 9:54 pm

Motorhole wrote:Essentially my question is, am I best going with the tried and tested clio servo, E30 MS and bias valve setup? Or is this Compbrake twin MS setup (or something else within a £250 budget) worth the bother? Bearing in mind any in-car fabrication would require transporting the car :(
Given your circumstances I’d save my pennies for as long as necessary to have something made up (maybe like Jason’s) that I could bolt in with minimal effort. Given your very big front callipers compared to the rear, I don’t think that you will have much luck with an E30 tandem M/C. I’m not saying it won’t work, but your bias will be badly upset. I suspect (and keep in mind that I have not yet had chance to calculate and answer to this) that you will lock up your front wheels at such point as your rear brakes have barely begun to take. You’ll notice this in the fact that your rear pads will hardly wear.
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"It is amazing how many drivers, even at the Formula-1 level, think that brakes are for slowing the car down." - Mario Andretti
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Thu May 19, 2011 12:51 am

I did have the same caliper set up on a Heath Robinson 4:1 pedal box and it was pretty much useless hence the current pedal box set-up
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Motorhole
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Thu May 19, 2011 7:59 am

Thanks guys. I'll take this opportunity to learn from the experience of others and wait until I can afford a decent pedal box. A 6:1 or more pedal ratio and doing away with the transfer bar completely sounds like the best idea all round :)

Geoff, you've been a star!
GeoffBob
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Thu May 19, 2011 8:21 am

I just had a look at your video Motorhole. There's a fair bit more travel on that pedal than I expected, at least as much as my own Tilton brake pedal. If you should decide, I think you could have something made up (similar to the pic you posted) to attach to the end of the transfer bar. The lever that joins the transfer bar to the M/C’s would require a ratio of 1.5:1 (quite small actually) to raise the pedals effective ratio from 4.25:1 to 6:38:1. This would make the selection of appropriate size M/C’s quite easy given your chosen calliper sizes. If it’s possible to have something ”abolt-in”a made up then I would consider this a viable option. You could possibly weigh up all the pro’s and cons between a full on pedal box vs. an add-on at the end of the transfer bar.
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"It is amazing how many drivers, even at the Formula-1 level, think that brakes are for slowing the car down." - Mario Andretti
GeoffBob
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Thu May 19, 2011 9:26 am

Motorhole wrote:Thanks guys. I'll take this opportunity to learn from the experience of others and wait until I can afford a decent pedal box. A 6:1 or more pedal ratio and doing away with the transfer bar completely sounds like the best idea all round :)

Geoff, you've been a star!
You're welcome Motorhole. Best of luck with your project, Sounds like you have all the necessary under control.

Regards
Geoff
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"It is amazing how many drivers, even at the Formula-1 level, think that brakes are for slowing the car down." - Mario Andretti
Motorhole
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Thu May 19, 2011 1:42 pm

Jason, would you be able to take any more detailed pictures of your pedal box setup by any chance? I think the best value way forward is to get a 6:1 brake/clutch box and modify the original pedal box to make a bolt in unit.

Thanks!
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martinpallot
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Fri May 20, 2011 10:20 am

I think I should come on here give everyone an apology for causing confusion with my quote that the standard set-up gave a pedal ratio of 2:1. It should indeed be 4:1 (must have been having one of my many stupid days!)

The biggest problem with those pedal boxes is that they shouldnt really be mounted the way they are designed to be, due to the swing motion of the bar that holds the balance bar being up and down and that of the pedal box end which swings forwards and pack on a horizontal plain. This would be fine of thetwo were linked by a rose joint, however as it is a clevis, the bar linking them would in time bend and fracture.

Of you want to use a pedal box in an e30 with single piston calipers, then I would avoid it. Also bear in mind that many upgrade 4 pots including rally designs wilwood dynalite kit and the WMS kit will have too small a piston size to work efficiently. The only e30 I ever drove with a pedal box that worked was the last eveolution of my rally car one which gave a 7:1 pedal ratio with wilwood 4 pots (still stopped but was by no measn easy) And the cosworth engined rally car of the guy who RossJsy has said built his. Both ran 6.25 front MC and 0.7 rear with the same pedal ratio, where his differed was that he ran the calipers I was running on the rear and had 6 pots with bigg pistons on the front - as a result it stopped what I would consider 'comfortably' he assured me that it worked spot on when the pads were up to temperature. His only regret being fitting the 4 pots on the rear, as it was somewhat over-braked.

Just my 2 pence worth :D
GeoffBob
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Fri May 20, 2011 11:07 am


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"It is amazing how many drivers, even at the Formula-1 level, think that brakes are for slowing the car down." - Mario Andretti
Motorhole
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Fri May 20, 2011 12:04 pm

Actually when I considered modifying the deflection bar arrangement, I thought the easiest wya to do it would be by changing part 6 on the diagram above so that the deflection bar could exert more leverage, i.e. lengthening the bracket the deflection bar bolts onto. However this would of course mean the pushrod to the MS would move less for any given pedal movement, I would have thought you could run the risk of the MSs not having full range of movement?
GeoffBob
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Fri May 20, 2011 3:04 pm

Motorhole wrote:Actually when I considered modifying the deflection bar arrangement, I thought the easiest wya to do it would be by changing part 6 on the diagram above so that the deflection bar could exert more leverage, i.e. lengthening the bracket the deflection bar bolts onto. However this would of course mean the pushrod to the MS would move less for any given pedal movement, I would have thought you could run the risk of the MSs not having full range of movement?
This happens anyway, regardless of what method you use to raise your pedal ratio. Unless your pedal starts high up on its stroke, the chances are that a high ratio pedal will not depress the M/C fully by the time the pedal is fully depressed. This is the sort of thing that has to be watched carefully when setting up pedals.
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"It is amazing how many drivers, even at the Formula-1 level, think that brakes are for slowing the car down." - Mario Andretti
keri-WMS
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Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:33 pm

martinpallot wrote:.... the WMS kit will have too small a piston size....
Just for the record we actually offer three piston size options on the T20 caliper, here are the numbers in case it helps:

1.25/1.25" (87.5% of oem area, the standard setup for pedal feel reasons)
1.38/1.38" (106.6% of oem area)
1.62/1.75" (159.2% of oem area, staggered pistons - huuuge!)

So there's room to mess about with the setup while retaining the general bolt-on easiness of the kit. :D
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www.wms-brakes.co.uk / http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=209737
ross_jsy
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Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:45 pm

Out of interest Keri, is there any price difference for the different sized pistons?
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Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:47 pm

ross_jsy wrote:Out of interest Keri, is there any price difference for the different sized pistons?
Nope. :)
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www.wms-brakes.co.uk / http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=209737
ross_jsy
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Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:01 pm

Hmmm, would it be possible to swap my calipers for the largest ones you have then? Still have them sat in the box (I'm a slow worker :o: )
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Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:09 pm

lol - er, sure I expect so! Drop me a PM, I'll have to check I've got some of the big ones spare (juggling things a bit at the moment). :cool:

Is this for a non-standard pedal box in your case? (just to check)
WMS E30 brake kits! (4-pot 280mm & 300mm front / 2-pot 290mm rear)

www.wms-brakes.co.uk / http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=209737
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