M20B27 on LPG - Developments

Sat May 07, 2011 9:29 am

sorry to hear that stu, i hope we can re-kindle your love for the m20. IMHO, this WAR chip doesnt seem to be worth the bother or expense! Im debating between megasquirt and VEMS myself, just a little annoying that VEMS has an inbuild wideband controller and ive only just bought one!

I feel your pain alex! I am a mere week away from my final exams at uni, and have done absolutely nothing to the car. Sounds like youve saved a lot of cash!

Something i posted in another thread, I may as well post here. Have any of you heard any development on liquid LPG injection? I cant actually find anywhere which will sell me the parts (Tank with internal pump, fuel rail/ injectors, relay and regulator). Failing this, my next project will be LPG vapour injection. Do these systems require a different vapouriser/reducer? They seem to have smaller gas outlets than my OMVL R90E.

Sat May 07, 2011 2:44 pm

Hey Stu, I'm sure driving it over the summer will reignite your love! Don't forget you do have the biggest engine as well, so you can't expect the best economy compared to Chris and I.

Sat May 07, 2011 3:01 pm

I was thinking about this actually alex when speccing my engine build. Surely, an m20b20 for example and an m20b27, if properly built, should product near identical MPG driven in the same economical fashion when "pushing" exactly the same weight, using same engine management etc keeping all other factors constant. Stressing the point "properly built" so as the engine spec itself is not flawed. The m20b20 is known for not being very good on fuel and in most cases, the m20b25 can actually provide better results. Surely the extra torque of the b27 would help here? Hence designed by bmw for the eta. Obviously stu has stuck a 731? head on but this should only use more fuel and hence produce more power when driven "hard"? Leads to me to believe something may be wrong with stu's car - extra weight? a leak somewhere in the inlet?

What sort of mpg were you getting on petrol before you fitted any LPG kit, WAR etc stu?

Thu May 12, 2011 1:01 pm

got my blos, just waiting for wideband setup to come now, tempting myself with a m30b35 tho, not sure the blos will be bale to supply enough fuel for that.

Thu May 12, 2011 1:37 pm

It'll be fine for the M30, Gareth's LPG'd M30b35 was using a 36mm mixer and R90 vapouriser which was costing him a lot of power.

Thu May 12, 2011 2:26 pm

possibly it does say on the ads they are good upto 200bhp, cant wait to get some power back from the old school system im running at the moment

Tue May 17, 2011 5:45 pm

installed my wideband today, still running open point at the moment as i should be revising as i have exams tomorrow and friday, but hey. what figures to people run at ino 15.5 is supposedly optimum but do people setup to run lean at idle, rich on full throttle and slightly lean for cruising?

Sun Jun 05, 2011 11:57 am

not sure on this blos carb yet got it tuned well using the lc-1 for normal driving but its running leaner at high revs and cant seem to tune that out.

Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:19 pm

Is your trap door operating smoothly? Are you using a stepper motor or manual tuning valve?

Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:38 pm

yes it is nice and smooth, no stepper or power valve fitted, just fitted a brand new r90e vap aswell.

just before i fitted the blos, i was running open loop getting very good lc-1 afr figs alway thru the rev range, fitted the r90e a little tweeking and was getting very good figs aswell.

Fitted the blos can get it running perfect below about 4k then over that starts running lean, peaking at about17.0 on the lc-1, furter adjustments last night just seemed to make me richer on idle and below 4k and runnin similar leanness higher up.

Ill be having another play later see what i can do with it, if that fails im goin to either modify the tube or make another one to allow more gas in.

Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:05 am

I'm giving up on the MAF/W.A.R chip set-up. I can't be arsed with trying to get the frakking thing to run properly on petrol.

I just need to come-up with a way of fitting the BLOS and retaining the factory AFM/air filter assembly.

Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:57 pm

I guess the only sensible option is to move your vapourisor to under the servo and push the stock airbox forward, frustrating to hear that it's sooo much work!!!!!

Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:24 pm

e301988325i wrote:I guess the only sensible option is to move your vapourisor to under the servo

I might not have to move the vap. that far Alex.
Now that I don't need the flap opener, I should be able to get the vacuum reservoir out of the way and move the vap. to the left a bit.
The hardest part is going to be fabricating brackets to allow me to move the airbox.

I might be having a go at it Sunday morning.

If anyone's interested the W.A.R chip, fitted to an ECU, will probably be going on eBay at some point.

Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:35 pm

The deed is done. I'm now running a AFM/BLOS set-up with the increased advance chip I had done last summer. I'll have to put some Tesco Momentum 99 in now.

I managed to get the vap. to move far enough to the left without having to make a new HP pipe.

Developments officially ended.

Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:37 pm

Do youfeel the BLOS is better than the mixer?

I think you've well and truly proven that it's bloody expensive to get it all running on LPG properly. The WAR chip seemed ideal, but not if it can't run straight out of the box and be tweaked from a base point, starting from scratch is beyiond most of us.

Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:51 pm

e301988325i wrote:Do you feel the BLOS is better than the mixer?

Undoubtably! I wish I'd bought one years ago when I first saw them on eBay, rather than thinking it's too good to be true. I've probably spent as much as the BLOS cost on different venturii.

e301988325i wrote:I think you've well and truly proven that it's bloody expensive to get it all running on LPG properly.

I could have bought a good injection set-up with what I've spent. See above, though. If I'd had a BLOS from day one a lot of what I've done/spent wouldn't have been necessary. If anyone is contemplating fitting single-point LPG I would very strongly advise them to fit a BLOS from the start rather than a mixer.

e301988325i wrote:The WAR chip seemed ideal, but not if it can't run straight out of the box and be tweaked from a base point, starting from scratch is beyond most of us.

Ant, Salman, Paul, Gunni, etc, etc, wouldn't have any problem with a W.A.R chip, I'm sure. IMHO the W.A.R chip is probably more than adequate for anyone running either an AFM or one of Miller's own MAFs. It's the deviation from Miller's "standard" parameters that's the problem for the average DIY-er. The software that Miller provide to DIY-ers isn't as comprehensive as what they can make available to bona-fide tuning shops.

Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:24 pm

has any got a picture of their blos with the flap up, ive taken mine off, would run lean at high revs no adjustments would change this at all. gone back to open loop, an having no problems at all now.

Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:43 pm

Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:14 pm

Where did you guys get your SU carbs,,, sorry, I mean BLOS from

Been looking on ebay for a few weeks and nothing has shown, cant find anything from a quick google search either

Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:38 pm

DanThe wrote:Where did you guys get your SU carbs,,, sorry, I mean BLOS from
Been looking on ebay for a few weeks and nothing has shown, cant find anything from a quick google search either

Ebay sellers' id is PMX.PL, probably easiest to contact him through one of his other auctions

http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/pmx.pl

Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:32 pm

I'm getting 36.7mpg avg. around town driving now. BLOS for the win!

Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:10 pm

everything looks the same, i just dont get why it wont fuel correct at high rpm, even with adjusted only a few thread in its still hitting 16-17s on the lc-1 at full throttle

Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:17 pm

have you 'tweeked' your vap at all?

Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:33 am

CHR1S1990 wrote:I'm getting 36.7mpg avg. around town driving now. BLOS for the win!

That's frakkin' amazing! It's double what I get.

Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:35 am

CHR1S1990 wrote:I'm getting 36.7mpg avg. around town driving now. BLOS for the win!

Chris, what alse have you changed, how many tankfuls is that measured over? My best MPG was achieved when a pump didn't fill the tank fully!!!

Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:32 am

I swapped the BLOS over the day I swapped over a BTB3 manifold, and added an m30 AFM. Perhaps this proves that the B20 can be very economical, and is very restricted out of the box? Who knows, but I'm certainly happy! Thats about 2 months worth of measuring, and £20 of LPG a week. I never fill the tank, 'cause im a tight arse

Also to note, that Ive adjusted my AFR to be around 13.5 when driving to make sure ive got the fuel ready for when I boot it. I could tweek it a little leaner and see further improvements, but i'll leave that til MOT time

Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:33 am

e301988325i wrote:Chris, what alse have you changed, how many tankfuls is that measured over? My best MPG was achieved when a pump didn't fill the tank fully!!!

Mine too. IIRC that was c.26mpg on a steady (<70mph) 200 mile motorway run. Normally, under those conditions, I wouldn't expact more than 23.5mpg max.
My commute is 8 miles x2 daily. I never get more than 18mpg on that one - even when I was running the M20B20.
18mpg divided by 0.74 for the calorific value difference = 24+ mpg, so I don't worry too much anymore, although I used to. 24mpg commuting with an M20B27 can't be that bad, can it?

My overall consumption on LPG is 20-21mpg. Mind, if you work it out on a pence-per-mile basis, it's like having a petrol-powered car doing 35+mpg - so that's not so bad IMO.

Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:44 pm

36mpg

I am well jealous

What are you using to measure AFR BTW?

Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:33 pm

CHR1S1990 wrote:have you 'tweeked' your vap at all?

its a r90e so only has the two adjuster settings, small screw you shouldnt adjust according to omvl themselves and fiddling with the idle screw doesnt have any effects on high rpm fueling whichc ever way i set it.

teh flap in the blos moves freely, no blockages etc, only other thing i can think of its to widen teh v shape out more at the top.

36mpg, seriously doesnt sound right lol, amazing if thats what you are achieving with it.

Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:23 pm

I'd sacrifice consumption for power any day, Dan. Low consumption = boring as fook, ive been driving like a granny fart for weeks now im no longer a student

Using an innovate LC-1.

I can't see how the diaphragm tension can be accurate out of the box TBH, i set mine up initially with a mixer plate, but admittedly didn't touch it when i swapper the BLOS over in case i ever wanted to revert.

Quite possible you have the smaller of the 3 "V" cut out tube inserts. Perhaps map it, measuring the diameter of the gap along the "V" every mm or so, and compare to either one of mine, alex's or stu's. I'll dig out the info i got with it, I think out of the box they normally come with the "intermediate" sized shafts.

Im curious actually, what mpg you LPG guys reading on your OBC on LPG compared to your actual calculated consumption? (Taking into account how it is calculated).

Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:57 pm

the second one they say not to touch is just a fine tune idle adjuster which isnt needed to be used at all, theres no other things to set up on it, altho ill give it a try tomorrow to see what happens. measurements of the V would be sweet, i will also measure mine tomorrow.

Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:51 am

CHR1S1990 wrote:Im curious actually, what mpg you LPG guys reading on your OBC on LPG compared to your actual calculated consumption? (Taking into account how it is calculated).

I haven't got an OBC, I do my consumption calculations the old fashioned way.
Any reading off an OBC is going to be waaaaay off if you're running on LPG because IIRC one of the calculations the OBC uses is the amount of fuel in the tank.

Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:13 am

I know stu, and takes readings from the injectors AFAIK, just wondering what everybody's is reading when on LPG

Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:56 pm

my obc stopped working with dodgy fuel pump. my v shape is about 9mm across at the top, still couldnt make any changes to high rpm afr.

Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:20 am

damageandyy wrote:the second one they say not to touch is just a fine tune idle adjuster which isnt needed to be used at all, theres no other things to set up on it, altho ill give it a try tomorrow to see what happens. measurements of the V would be sweet, i will also measure mine tomorrow.

'They say not to touch?' ignore that.

On the R90 there's a smaller brass adjuster, which comes screwed in and should generally be left there as it lets as in at idle only and has no effect thereater, I assume that your vapourisor gets as hot as the coolant, and that your engine thermostat is in good working order?

The larger brass adjuster controls the mixture, as you're lean at the top you should start unscrewing it 1/4 turn at a time.

If this shows no impovements then you need to consider the size of the LPG pipe running front to rear, is it just 6mm copper, if so it's possibly not big enough? How old are your LPG filters and vapourisor, they don't last forever.

I took my shaft out and it measures 9mm, although this part is never actually exposed by the trap door.