Track Car Debate

[scott180gtb]

I'm starting this to try and get the thoughts of fellow zoners on a track weapon.

I'm going to be building a dedicated track car after driving a M20 I'm back at square one looking for a car that is "hairs on the back of your neck quick"

I have been thinking bike engined locost or something turbo powered.

The Nissan 200sx comes to mind as a track weapon as its cheap to buy and relatively easy to get decent bhp out of.

Is a well sorted 200sx a more enjoyable track weapon than a M50 E30?

I have also been reading up on Thoe's thread and thinking of a turbo E30.

I guess what I'm trying to get to is that is a S14 powered E30 massively more rewording to track than a factory 200sx.

Who is running what?

Please post up your thoughts.

Thanks

Scott

[E30BeemerLad]

My thoughts........

You're a whore

[scott180gtb]

My return

You are a stump sucking tard

[randomspeedfreak]

how quick is quick?
whats your budget?

your main enemy is weight

[daimlerman]

how quick is quick?
whats your budget?

your main enemy is weight

These are the vital points IMO!

Are you driving to the track?

If so,the thing needs to have things like demisters...

If trailing,I would go for a very light chassis and a bike engine.

[e21Jason]

e36 m3 I just sold one for 1.5k and there are a few around ideal for a track turd, but if you want a turbo s14 I have a fresh built low comp engine (MLS, ARP, Forged pistons stc.) and even a supercharge kit to go with it.

The nissan has a better handling suspenion design as a base and is cheap to upgrade

Jason

[Andyboy]

Have you done a track day before? If not, buy something like an E36 318i/320i, put some suspension/tyres on it and buzz around in that - more than fast enough in the wet.

[scott180gtb]

I have been to few track days at Elvington as a spectator. Lots of mx5 and 200sx blasting round.

I have got my hands on a nice straight non sunroof e30 shell and was thinking is it worth the all the effort of an engine swap for rice power or would it be more rewarding/easier to buy a quick car in the first place?

The car will be tailored because I cant be arsed with mot and insurance.

I have just sold the last shell that I got ready for a track slag after pulling out all the sound proofing and bare shelling it. The whole in the roof put me off. I kind of enjoy playing with scrap so I don't mind engine swaps.

I need a cage as well due to my ability to stick them on there roof!

My budget is about £3000 but that must include suspension, rubber, cage etc.

I need something that scares the s### out of me hence looking at the rice power.

[Motorhole]

Buy a Clio 182. Gut the thing completely. Use the money you get from selling off parts to buy a bolt in cage and some uprated shocks & springs, job done! Not rwd but you'll struggle to lap quicker for the money.

[oldroydsr4]

The 200sx has huge potential to develop more power for not much money, however the uk cars are prone to rust and the drift scene has made prices increase. On the plus side they is alot of reasonably priced tuning bits available.

A m50 e30 won't feel fast on track but with a good suspension setup will be fun and pretty compitent.

With a 3k budget a doubt you would be able to build a good quality rice e30 unless your very handy with a welder amd have good fab skills.

Fundamentally, to enjoy trackdays you need a quick RELIABLE track car and a well built m50'd e30 will achieve this , where as a 200sx running lots of boost is probably more prone to failures.

I would follow the following recipe.

1) Buy a good shell (not 4 door as it will be far hardrr to sell that a 2 door or touring).
2) Strip it bare.
3) Replace suspension bushes.
4) Buy good quality dampers
5) Perform coilover conversion to allow wide array of spring rates - front circa 500Ibs/inch and rear circa 700 Ibs/inch (if using in board )
6) adjustible top mounts (circa 3 degrees of neg)]
7) m50, fit solid engine mounts, metal impeller water pump and metal thermostat housing and either a air con rad or m3 rad with electric fan.
8 Bucket seat, harness and cage
9) ferrodo ds2500 pads
10) R888

This lot won't be cheap.


Or you could just buy a 325i / 328i e36 - give it a service (including safety check), buy some second hand good quality coil overs, strip it out and thrash it.

[e21Jason]

The reason e30 m3's are rewarding is that you have drive them at 9/10 to be quick, 10/10 to be fast. So when you get it right your driving pretty damm good and know it. £3k woulf not even get a s14 engien, but a e36 328 sport which is a decent base, and in thelong run easier to upgrade than a e30

Scaring yourself is easy just use crap brakes/tyres.

[E30BeemerLad]

I'd look for an abandoned/ semi finished Locost/ Caterham type thing if you want track thrills and something which is fiendishly quick, as you then have so many options in the engine dept.

Or maybe a 1.9gti pug.

I have access to a 306 S16 engine & gearbox which when swapped in would make a suitable track weapon. The engine & box are in Norwich though.

[staley_turbo]

I'm using 306 rallye / gti6. One of the best track cars i have ever driven, not a lot can keep with it round a corner. Stripped, good pads, 888s. Great car in budget.

[Theo]

3k just isn't going to be enough to build a track car, be it a 200sx or an e30.

I'd keep an eye out for someone selling an already-prepared car.

[Jhonno]

http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=197083

[oldroydsr4]

3k just isn't going to be enough to build a track car, be it a 200sx or an e30.

I'd keep an eye out for someone selling an already-prepared car.

Fully agree, building a trackcar with a half decent spec gets expensive quickly.

If you dont mind looking a bit soft , a FWD hothatch is a cheap way of going relatively quickly, although ultimately you will have more fun and learn more in a RWD car.

[Tedswagon]

For your budget you need to be looking at an already started project or something like ^^^^^^ http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=197083

You can also look on Pistonheads classified / motorsport section
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/index.asp?g=5

[scott180gtb]

3k just isn't going to be enough to build a track car, be it a 200sx or an e30.

I'd keep an eye out for someone selling an already-prepared car.

I am keeping my eye on these.

I appreciate that my small budget won't get me a fully sorted car but it should get me a good start.

Its going to be a long term project but I can't make my mind up weather to commit to the e30 shell or opt for something newer and quicker out of the box.

Has to RWD. The pug stuff is mighty quick but its just not me.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... K:MEWAX:IT

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2770782.htm

[Fushion_Julz]

I'm starting this to try and get the thoughts of fellow zoners on a track weapon.

I'm going to be building a dedicated track car after driving a M20 I'm back at square one looking for a car that is "hairs on the back of your neck quick"

How deep are your pockets? How great is your talent?

I have been thinking bike engined locost or something turbo powered.

locost everytime for driving enjoyment (so long as you can drive well)

The Nissan 200sx comes to mind as a track weapon as its cheap to buy and relatively easy to get decent bhp out of.

Is a well sorted 200sx a more enjoyable track weapon than a M50 E30?[

and this bit of string is exactly this long...

Nothing wrong with a 200sx...I used to have an S13 version...

But it isn't built like a BMW...and it doesn't handle like an E30 M3... Nor is it cheap to extract big power reliably

I have also been reading up on Thoe's thread and thinking of a turbo E30.

I guess what I'm trying to get to is that is a S14 powered E30 massively more rewording to track than a factory 200sx.

I guess you mean rewarding...
And I guess you mean is an E30 M3 better than a Nissan 200sx

The answer is definitely YES...but is it faster? depends on the driver.

Worth considering an E36 M3...cheap to buy, 280+bhp standard and strip all weight, upgrade suspension and brakes and you're good to go...

Who is running what?

Please post up your thoughts.

Thanks

Scott

I've got an E30 M3 lightly modified..

[mattrs]

Buy a Clio 182. Gut the thing completely. Use the money you get from selling off parts to buy a bolt in cage and some uprated shocks & springs, job done! Not rwd but you'll struggle to lap quicker for the money.

Not rwd but loads off lift off over steer and great fun too (I hired one at the ring and was very impressed)!

[mattrs]

270745330093 (ebay) breaking e30 track car, might be able to get the cage/brakes/suspension etc.

[ETERNITY]

speak to ANT(A-tech) he will point you in the right direction

I personally wouldnt bother with a peugeout/renult or any other european crap.

I would consider a jap, something like a nissan pulsar gtiR, Honda integra, skyline for a trackday.

But a well sorted e30 m52 trackday toy would cost you about 4k ish, and would be an awesdome drive with fantastic build quality.

1K on shell

2k engine conversion

1k suspension

[stuturners]

I have a locust kit car, twin 45's, 2l pinto, full stainless manifold and exhaust, it goes like stink, sounds out of this world, handles amazingly and really cheap to mod/uprate. I would recommend one of them, not expensive to buy/run and turns more heads than any e30 i have had. Keeps up with most stuff as well.

[spic]

I have been thinking the samething myself as regards to building another track/sprint car even though I have only 95% just finished my e30 track slag. Im still going to keep the e30 as I need something smooth for the drive to germany so im looking at building a car thats may be good for sprints and hill climbs but so good for long distances or motorways...Im looking at Renault 5's Mk 1 and 2 golfs and maybe thinking of useing a bike engine for power... What ever I go for im sure it will be another money pit...

[Dezzy]

Scott,
You have a shell, seats, and a cage already don't you?
Keep it light and stick the M20B25 that's going to be spare in it for now. Light with a good set up will get you started. Once this becomes tiresome go M52B30. Trust me, they are great.

[Andyboy]

I have been to few track days at Elvington as a spectator.

Then you want something low powered to start with just so you get the hang of it all. Track driving is absolutely nothing like road driving. On the back 'straight' at Cadwell where it turns left and goes up hill, you're doing 90 mph in a 140 bhp 318iS road car at full weight, and you can get it wrong and get yourself into trouble. I know I have.

Basically - if you've not driven on track before, 140 bhp is enough to scare yourself with. You'll get used to it and either crave more power or enjoy it as it is and take more liberties.

A 318iS E30 will be fine, and a well set up one is quick if you are. getting it down to 1000kg will be easy enough. Good standard brakes with some EBC yellows will be fine along with some good suspension. You can put a 200+ bhp motor in another time, but I'd build it up as an iS or a stock 325i first.

I'm at Cadwell on Friday if you've got a day off for a few passenger laps. A near standard 318Ti with just springs and shocks - it doesn't do too badly.

[Kos]

speak to ANT(A-tech) he will point you in the right direction

I personally wouldnt bother with a peugeout/renult or any other european crap.

I would consider a jap, something like a nissan pulsar gtiR, Honda integra, skyline for a trackday.

But a well sorted e30 m52 trackday toy would cost you about 4k ish, and would be an awesdome drive with fantastic build quality.

1K on shell

2k engine conversion

1k suspension

500 brakes 500 on seats side mounts and harnesses 1000 on a cage then there are tyres and other consumables.....

it all ads up.

as for european cars, i'd quite like a 306gti or a clio 172 as a track car. in the right hands they are fast. i even know of a guy who's done the ring in 10.16 in a toyota I go or something similar lol so its not all about power

a pulsar will fall apart with sustained abuse, the only decent car you mentioned is an integra. i'go with the DC2

[billgatese30]

the only decent car you mentioned is an integra. i'go with the DC2

I concur with Kos, but they're probably out of your budget, even for a road example if you were after a type R.


At the end of the day, the best money you will EVER spend to make you faster on the track is some tuition. Alot of good trackdays offer this for free (BMW Car Club ones do) and even if you have to pay £40 or so for a few laps with an instructor it's worth more than any modification you will ever do with your car. Guaranteed. (So long as it is an ARDS qualified instructor, not some johnny trackday hero cowboy)

What Andy is saying is very true too, get your driving good and you'll be the guy in the low powered car embarassing porsche's and lotuses when you keep up with them because they can't drive for shit regardless of how good their car is. Trust me, you don't want to be that guy in the quick car being overtaken

[m0gsia]

Mx5

[Motorhole]

Mx5

+1 for this!

BillGates is also bang on with the advice re: tuition.

[scott180gtb]

Scott,
You have a shell, seats, and a cage already don't you?
Keep it light and stick the M20B25 that's going to be spare in it for now. Light with a good set up will get you started. Once this becomes tiresome go M52B30. Trust me, they are great.

I have the shell. I sold the cage to fund jbu and I haven't paid you for the seats yet

I'm thinking of selling the M20B28 and keeping the sport standard to concentrate on a track weapon.

I was thinking of M20 power but if I'm doing an engine conversion I only want to do it once!

I'm no expert driver. My ability level stands at being competative with the lads from work in the twin engined carts. I'm normally second out of a group of 15. I'm up about 3 stone on the number one guy. I would definitely take tuition. I am no hero and have ran out of talent in the past.

I'm now thinking M50 until it feels slow and then maybe some boost to keep me in the garage

[E30BeemerLad]

Those seats are looking good in my chromie at the moment you bummer.

Use the B28 in the 2dr shell Scott

[Andyboy]

Use the B28 in the 2dr shell Scott

That's good advice! Allied to a 3.91 slipperydooda, that's be a Man/Boy separator in the wet.

[Dezzy]

I have a cage to go with the seats matey

[scott180gtb]

Those seats are looking good in my chromie at the moment you bummer.

Use the B28 in the 2dr shell Scott

That could work!

Nice and simple swap.

What type of cage is it Dezzy?