E30 with SR20DET

[keri-WMS]

I thought you might! This is the caliper I wanted to use on the E36 and E30 M3, but the lugs get in the way. Not so on the 4-stud stuff though!

[Theo]

Have you devised a bell and rotor to suit, or is that next on the to-do list?

[keri-WMS]

The rotor might be a pain to find, short of of an AP £acing one - I'll get a one-peice disc version done then all the kits will be due rotor+bell upgrades!

EDIT - I've found a rotor I can use by turning it down a few mm, shouldn't be too painful....the ID is small enough there won't be any pad overhang.

One peice is still first!

[Theo]

Silverstone never happened! That's cancelled 3 track days in a row which I've been booked on .

Not the end of the world though as I went to Brands Hatch instead and had a great day. Car was superb after I had the corner weights done again and the car re-aligned. A bit of extra camber was added on the front (now -2.5 degrees) and that seems to have improved the car a touch. Tyre wear is certainly more even.

Brakes were superb, though I never quite got the hang of them. I have a bit of a mental block when it comes to hard braking at Brands Hatch, in particular late braking into Paddock Hill Bend where I once had a big lock up and almost binned it. The Performance Friction pads are in a different league to the likes of EBC and Ferodo - I'm really impressed. They are very noisy though, but that's not really a concern for me. Keri's rear kit which I'm testing for him worked superbly, and didn't get spectacularly hot like the e30 m3 rear setup which I previously had.

My gearbox really is on it's last legs now, for some bizarre reason reverse decided to go AWOL fairly early in the day - I only found this out when it made a horrendous noise when I tried to reverse into the pit garage. I'm going to get it rebuilt I think, although I might offer up my spare Getrag 265/6 gearbox to see whether it would be feasible to use that.

I've got a short video of me going out on track doing a couple of laps and then realising that my fuel light is on! I'll try and upload that in the next few days.

[Jon_Bmw]

I've got a short video of me going out on track doing a couple of laps and then realising that my fuel light is on!

Bloody pit crews! It's always their fault when the car is slow and the drivers skill when the car wins.

[Theo]

Haha, I blame my car which does about 6mpg on track!

[Theo]

Forgot to mention that the diff fitted with a standard e30 back plate didn't get above 90 degrees C during a 12 lap stint. That said, Brands Hatch has quite a low average speed so the temperature would probably be a fair bit more at somewhere like Silverstone, and the ambient temperature was fairly low (10 degrees or so).

[keri-WMS]

Sounds good so far, glad the gear is doing the trick!

[Theo]

I've replaced the bolloxed gearbox and the new one seems ok. Whilst I was at it I had the clutch disc relined by a local friction specialist for £60. This also works perfectly, although I had to fit a larger push rod to the clutch slave cylinder to compensate for the increase friction disc thickness.

But wait, the updates don't stop there... I fitted some roll cage padding as passengers kept headbutting the cage when getting/in out of the car. Also newly fitted is a z3m differential backplate which looks cool, some stiffer exhaust rubber mounts which I bought well over a year ago. Finally, I've fitted new gaskets for the downpipe and the turbo to manifold. The latter was just starting to fail.

A picture:


Next track day is at Snetterton on the 7th April. All cars will be fitted with timing transponders and you get all your lap times at the end of the event. What could possibly go wrong..?

[GeoffBob]

Diff looks good Theo. Pleased to hear the brakes worked well for you at Brands Hatch. My brakes are also noisy FYI until I get them warmed up, but you don't really hear them over the noise of the gearbox

I see in your signature that you have a dog-leg box for sale. Why not fit that to your car? It's the closest you'll get to having a proper close ratio box. Is it a Getrag 262?

I need to get my clutch sorted out too before I finish reparing my gearbox. I am considering converting mine to a button-clutch.

Regards
Geoff

[Theo]

Hi Geoff

I actually quite like the brake noise, what I didn't like was the really pronounced pad rattle I got at lower speeds with these PF pads. I think the backing plate must be slightly smaller than other manufacturers resulting in the pads vibrating against the calipers. This cured the problem: http://www.elise-shop.com/anti-rattle-b ... 15ae6ef0e7

Yes the gearbox I'm selling is a 262cr or 265/5 depending on who you ask. I did toy with the idea of using this box but it would require too much additional spending. The prop shaft would need to be modified, as would the gear linkage. I'd need a longer clutch hose, a custom spigot bearing for the crank and a taller final drive ratio. I'd also have issues with the clutch and release bearing. Saying that it would be an interesting project, and modifying the Nissan bellhousing to attach to the Getrag box wouldn't be hard. If my 'new' gearbox fails I'll give the matter further consideration. I want to get as much use out of the car this summer (it was off the road for the majority of summer 2010) so perhaps it's something for the winter.

Is a button clutch the same as a paddle clutch? I'd consider one myself if I didn't drive my car on the road, occasionally on long journeys. My clutch actually works very nicely and has covered considerable mileage (it was already quite well used when I bought it as part of my SR20 engine package) it does however give an extremely stiff pedal.

[GeoffBob]

I keep forgetting that you use the car on the road Theo. I also keep forgetting that (despite the title of your thread) that you have a Nissan SR20 under the bonnet .

From my perspective (although a little weak) the dog-leg box (with its 1:1 5th gear) and useful shift pattern, is ideal for a track car where top speed counts less than how fast you get to that speed. In your case, however, I have no doubt that you could find something more compatible with your Jap engine than a Getrag gearbox.

FYI, if that box definitely has the dog-leg shift pattern then (sfaik) its a Getrag-262. The 262 and 265 are silimilar boxes from the outside, but differ internally in that the 5th gear cluster in the 265 becomes the 1st gear cluster in the 262. This is how the 262 finishes up with a 1:1 5th gear (4th gear in the 265) and a 1st gear that is so oddly located.

I know just enough about clutches, Theo, to be dangerous, so I'm not the best person to ask. However, sfaik, a button clutch comprises a clutch disc fitted with "paddle" or "button" shaped friction pads made from a copper-ceramic friction material, sandwiched between the usual flywheel and pressure plate.

Tim_haynes sent me the picture below of his button clutch. His clutch plate still uses the normal sprung-loaded hub at the centre of the clutch plate, but has been retro-fitted with a plate to which the buttons are attached. A more severe form of the button-clutch has the disc directly attached to the hub (no springs) and has very little "give" in it when you take your foot off the clutch. I want to do something similar to Tim_haynes' clutch with my own clutch.

[keri-WMS]

I've always heard them referred to as a Paddle Clutch, almost forces you to "drive it like a racecar". Wheelspin, stall, or rev it like a tit to make it slip when pulling out of junctions, I love them!

[DanThe]

Paddle clutches are nasty! Springs FTW

[GeoffBob]

Paddle clutches are nasty! Springs FTW

You mean this sort of thing DanThe ?



No Springs! Must be really hard to slip.

[Theo]

I've only driven one car with a paddle clutch and can't say it gave any noticeable benefit, just the drawbacks which Keri has detailed. Apparently 6 puck clutches are more user friendly than 4 puck clutches which stands to reason I suppose.

I was quite pleased with myself after I got the clutch relined for only £60, a new clutch kit is £400. All seems well so far, and I've tried it in the dry with r888s and 1.3 bar of clutch-slip-inducing boost.

In your case, however, I have no doubt that you could find something more compatible with your Jap engine than a Getrag gearbox.

Actually, that's not really the case. There are two documented gearbox upgrades for the SR20 (300zx box, and the Getrag box from a rwd Skyline) and both require and adaptor plate, propshaft changes, gearlinkage/position issues etc.

[GeoffBob]

In your case, however, I have no doubt that you could find something more compatible with your Jap engine than a Getrag gearbox.

Actually, that's not really the case. There are two documented gearbox upgrades for the SR20 (300zx box, and the Getrag box from a rwd Skyline) and both require and adaptor plate, propshaft changes, gearlinkage/position issues etc.

Sorry Theo, I wasn't aware that the 300zx and Skyline boxes were made by Getrag. In fact, I wasn't aware that the Japs used getrag boxes at all. I guess it makes sense though as Getrag do make some very good gearboxes. I can only imagine the horrors of getting them to fit.

[GeoffBob]

I've only driven one car with a paddle clutch and can't say it gave any noticeable benefit, just the drawbacks which Keri has detailed. Apparently 6 puck clutches are more user friendly than 4 puck clutches which stands to reason I suppose.

I think it has an awful lot to do with whether the clutch-plate has springs or not Theo. A pukka puck clutch for racing has no springs, and (as I understand it) are quite hard to use on a road-car. Willnz, as above, seems to have his under control though. Since my car is track only I could probably get away with either TBH. Simply taking my clutch disc to have it retro-fitted with four, five or six "puks" is actually no different to you having your clutch relined, and is probably the route I will follow.

BTW, I wasn't criticising your choice of clutch in case there is any misunderstanding. As I said above, I know very little about what is available in the way of clutches, and am anxious to learn myself.

[Theo]

BTW, I wasn't criticising your choice of clutch in case there is any misunderstanding. As I said above, I know very little about what is available in the way of clutches, and am anxious to learn myself.

Don't worry, I certainly wasn't considering any comment as a criticism.

I'm quite interested in the topic or clutches myself as I know very little on the subject. We haven't mentioned multi plate clutches yet, possibly a bit extreme for our needs?

[Theo]

A week to go until Snetterton - I'm really excited. I've just bought two unused Dunlop slicks to play with - 185/580 15 in hard compound. They were a ebay bargain which I couldn't resist! Could be an amusing balance running full slicks on the front and semi slicks on the rear... Maybe I should just bring myself to shelling out £332 for a pair of matching rears, or £369 for a pair in 200/580 15. Why do fun things have to be so expensive!?

I also have set of full racing wets to try out so I'm almost hoping for rain. It never rains when I do a track day!

[e21Jason]

Theo you want to move up here 8/10 trackdayds are damp, plus the odd bit of snow and fog

Jason

[Theo]

Haha! I think I'd struggle with the language barrier...

[gareth]

You should have come to Lydden! It was 'orrible!
Have you seen the videos?

[Theo]

Yeah I saw the vids, looked like a reet good laff. Probably would have been dry if i'd booked onto it!

[GeoffBob]

Full slicks on the front? Over-steer if its dry, no-steer if it rains

Sounds like fun Theo. Enjoy!

[Theo]

Thanks Geoff, I shall enjoy!

I might actually have a play with the car setup this time, perhaps I could alter the anti roll bar settings, or disconnect them altogether?

[Theo]

Snetterton was great, 'really enjoyed the circuit. The new infield section is a bit nondescript but some of the other corners more than make up for it.

The car was great, was spitting out a bit of coolant into the overflow tank which had me worried that there was a possible head gasket issue but after compression testing it I'm confident this isn't the case. Coolant was a rock solid 85 degrees all day, oil just shy of 100 and differential just over 100 degrees with the z3m backplate fitted. Intake temps reached about 50 degrees.

I did a few laps with the slicks on the front, just to scrub them in. They did make the car a little bit more pointy... I have now bought three more so I can run slicks all round on the next track day to see what they're really like.

[Theo]

I forget to mention a conversation I had with a guy who was at the track day hammering around in a tuned Nissan GTR who recommended the use of Methanol. He says he had his other car (a 720bhp Subaru) re-mapped to run on a Methanol mix (109 RON, 70p/litre).

Could I not just add a dash of Methanol to a tank of normal unleaded to obtain a RON of around 99 which is what Tesco 'Momentum' is. He was adamant I could which surprised me as I've never really heard of this before?

Anyone got an opinion on this?

[billgatese30]

Methanol is used plenty in drag racing circles, my bro is building a blown alky (supercharged methanol) chevy big block which should be good for about 1500BHP. If you buy a 1000 litre IBC then it works out about 44p/litre (or at least it did last year) although the smaller quantity bought, the higher the price.

Never had much experience of it being blended with normal unleaded but I know that starting on pure is difficult and engines are better started on regular petrol, then switched over the alky (much like some LPG systems). Plus methanol has the benefit of burning alot cooler than regular fuel and is somthing that you may wish to consider if you start running it. You may need to run a cooler spark plug for instance.

I would be interested in seeing how it works on your steed though dude if you go down that root.

[GeoffBob]

[Theo]

Fantastic information Geoff, thanks a lot for taking time to explain.

My interest in using Methanol was down to it's cheapness and also the ability to run slightly higher boost without the worry of detonation. At present I turn the boost down a touch on track just to play it safe. I suppose I should just get a wideband AFR gauge and see how much boost I safely run rather than guestimating.

I've also heard of Toluene being a more suitable additive (10% mix) to give an extra safety margin, but I suppose the points you made above also apply to this. I'll stick with V power for now, but interesting to learn a bit about the subject.

[GeoffBob]

Theo, the effect of adding toluene to your petrol all depends upon how much was already added at the refinery. Toluene (methyl-benzene), along with a variety of other ”aaromatic”a compounds, are used globally to raise the octane rating of petrol in the absence of lead. In countries where these compounds are limited to around 5%, the addition of toluene and xylene can have a significant effect upon the detonation resistance of the fuel. In countries where the petrol already contains 20% or more aromatic compounds, adding additional, unless you are planning on running a very high compression ratio or high boost pressure, is a waste of time. FYI, during the era of turbocharged F1 cars the fuel contained roughly 75% toluene, enabling the engines to run at 60psi of boost without detonation! As with methanol, however, toluene has a lower energy content and more fuel was consumed, requiring more pit-stops.

Some additional info on methanol that I should have mentioned above:

Technically, methanol has only a slightly higher octane rating than pump petrol, which means that it is only marginally more resistant to detonation. Compared to petrol, however, methanol has a latent heat of vaporisation almost four times greater, thus drawing almost four times the heat from the inlet tract and combustion chamber to convert the methanol from the liquid to vapour state. It is for this reason that it is possible to run the engine at much higher compression ratio or at higher boost pressure without the onset of detonation. The combustion event is effectively cooled and slowed (calmed if you will) when methanol is added. Take note, however, that methanol contains only half the thermal energy per unit mass of petrol. Hence, to achieve similar power to a petrol fuelled engine, a methanol engine must burn roughly twice as much methanol as petrol, hence a requirement for additional fuel pumps, fuel lines and injectors. Fortunately methanol combusts with air to produce best power at around a ratio of 5:1 AFR compared to the typical 13:1 AFR for petrol. Taking into account the reduced energy content of methanol, a methanol fuelled engine running at an AFR of 5:1 will produce approximately 25% more power on the dyno than the identical petrol fuelled engine running at an AFR of 13:1. Take into account, however, that the compression ratio and/or boost pressure of a methanol fuelled engine can be raised significantly higher than that of a petrol fuelled engine before the onset of detonation, and you quickly realise that the methanol fuelled engine has the potential for even greater power output.

Take note, however, that no advantage will be seen by simply adding methanol to your petrol. Unless you retune your ECU to run at the correct AFR you will effectively be running lean and at reduced power output, so beware! To see any benefit from adding methanol you must retune your ECU.

[Theo]

Belated thanks for the response Geoff, another interesting read. The idea of running jungle juice is well and truly off the cards!

I've uploaded a crappy video from Snett, quite funny at the end seeing how fast the GTR is down the back straight. I was doing about 130mph into the braking zone, he was doing 159! I chatted to him afterwards and it turns out his car was a bit tweaked and had 650ft-lbs of torque

[gareth]

Crikey, yours looked bloody quick til the GTR turned up!

The only encounters i've had with GTR's on track so far have left me doubting the drivers of them...! As far as i'm concerned, a M30 touring should not overtake a GTR in the wet!