M20B27 on LPG - Developments

[StuBeeDoo]

THE FOLLOWING ISSUES WERE CAUSED BY INPUT ERROR BY ME.
PLEASE DO NOT TAKE ANY COMMENTS ON HOW THE CAR RUNS ON THE W.A.R CHIP AS ANY REFLECTION ON THE PRODUCT ITSELF UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE.

3 hours on the rollers and we only got as far as getting the idle and WOT fuelling somewhere near right.
Having a hell of a problem getting the p/t fuelling done. Obviously it's trial and error but it doesn't help that the W.A.R chip software is ssslllllooooooooooww uploading, and each time you make a change you have to upload again. I haven't timed it, but it must take 2 minutes every time.
Did one run at WOT and got 172bhp@5400/182ftlb@4500.

At least now it will start and idle on petrol if the ambient is too cold for it to start on LPG.

I'll have to go back at least once more. But in the mean time, I've got all day to myself tomorrow so I'll go out and play with the LPG ignition on the road.

At the moment I can't say that I'd recommend the W.A.R chip. I get moments where I just want to rip it all off and go back to the prehistoric method with the AFM and the best of the generic chips I have in stock. .......But if it does come to that, I'll be getting one of them there mixers that bolt onto the front of the AFM.

[daimlerman]

Three steps forward and two back are often the way with mods....


But now you do seem to be getting results,well done!

[e301988325i]

That's the kind of figure I would expect with a mixer in place TBH, are you still using the same 39mm as before you installed all the MAF gubbins?

How do you feel now about the off the shelf Miller MAF and chip?

From what I've seen of ignition and fuelling tables you should be able to estimate the part throttle fuellings across the rev range based on what they are at WOT. and what they are at light loads. ie

If your injectors are at 50% duty cycle @3000rpm WOT and 10% at a light load @3000 rpm, you should be able to fill in the blanks in between, which should hopefully save you a bit of time.

Would that be possible with the WAR chip?

Clearly I am not an expert and you should discuss anything with your engine tuner rather than listening to me.

[StuBeeDoo]

THE FOLLOWING ISSUES WERE CAUSED BY INPUT ERROR BY ME.
PLEASE DO NOT TAKE ANY COMMENTS ON HOW THE CAR RUNS ON THE W.A.R CHIP AS ANY REFLECTION ON THE PRODUCT ITSELF UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE.

How do you feel now about the off the shelf Miller MAF and chip?

Same as before. All you get is the MAF and a generic chip, unless you buy the MAF + W.A.R chip bundle. IIRC it was Malcolm who posted that his is generic chip is causing over-fuelling and Miller have never been able to address the problem. That was the first issue that put me off, the second was that I wouldn't have had control over the map (in terms of optimising the ignition for LPG), and the third was that IMHO the Miller MAF, although it isn't as (potentially?) restrictive as the standard AFM, still has less CSA than the TB.

are you still using the same 39mm

Venturi?? Yes.



At this moment in time, by head's battered with it all.
All I know is that it still isn't running as efficiently as it was with the AFM and the best of the generic chips.
While this W.A.R chip, and then the DIY MAF, was only ever an experiment, I'm starting to think I've bitten-off more than I can chew. For now, I've lost a good 10% of my previous LPG consumption, which was already at least 10% worse than anyone else's here. So, in a nutshell, my efforts so far have taken me backwards rather than forwards.
I think that in my quest for perfection I've read too much and read too much into what I've read, if you see what I mean. If I'd known when I first bought the LPG kit that the flap opener compromised the ignition mapping, I'd have insisted on having one of the mixers that goes in front and just left it at that and never been any the wiser. I think I should have got out more instead of wasting so much time on the frakking internet.
It's very tempting to wrap it all in and go out there tomorrow and refit the AFM, generic chip and 36mm venturi - and bollocks to the lost power.
I've come to the (obvious?) conclusion that a BLOS is never going to work on an M20 without binning the AFM, unless some way can be found to fit it in front of the AFM and still be able to get an air filter to fit somewhere.

[CHR1S1990]

I've come to the (obvious?) conclusion that a BLOS is never going to work on an M20 without binning the AFM, unless some way can be found to fit it in front of the AFM and still be able to get an air filter to fit somewhere.

exactly how I see it - i will be using a 70mm cone filter, 90deg pointing downwards silicon hose from the BLOS, which is joined to an M30 AFM. this should all fit fine and be pointing infront of the headlight grill

[e301988325i]

The BLOS is 10cm long, 6cm between hoses, fitting it in isn't so difficult, it's just creating a seal for the air filter, hence my concoction of hoses and cone filter, which I intend to sit inside what's left of the original air box, once it's cut it away to fit the hoses in, all this talk makes me want to go and fit it, but I'm snowed under with college assignments, going to college and a 45hr working week on top of that. The good news is I've got a really keen young lad starting on Monday which should ease the pressure a little!!!

[CHR1S1990]

indeed, ive been toying with the idea of goin out and at least trying the BLOS, but i'll hold back until I have all the parts! Seems like we are in a similar situation! Although things may be looking up for you lol my final year exams are in 2 months so its crunch time - dont know how i find all the time for tinkering with the m20

a little OT alex, but you have a BTB3 6branch correct? Do you have this mounted with an x-peice to a genuine system or did you go the whole hog of full BTB?

[StuBeeDoo]

THE FOLLOWING ISSUES WERE CAUSED BY INPUT ERROR BY ME.
PLEASE DO NOT TAKE ANY COMMENTS ON HOW THE CAR RUNS ON THE W.A.R CHIP AS ANY REFLECTION ON THE PRODUCT ITSELF UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE.


Ok, so now I've slept on it, I realise that this isn't going any further. Game over!

I really can't justify throwing any more money at it. I'm so far over budget it's unbelievable. I stopped counting at £750 spent so far (and it's actually nearer £1k!!), solely on attempting to get the ignition right! Whatever I do, I'm going to have to spend a little more to get the car running somewhere near right on both LPG and petrol but I need to keep it to an absolute minimum.

The plan now is to refit the AFM (I wish I'd never cut that plug off!!), buy an AFM-mounted mixer with whatever size venturi it comes with, and use the best of the generic chips.



I would have liked to say that it's all been fun, but I can't.
I think the moral of the story is that if you want to run LPG, you have to accept the compromises unless you have a similar budget to a BTCC team.

[StuBeeDoo]

THE FOLLOWING ISSUES WERE CAUSED BY INPUT ERROR BY ME.
PLEASE DO NOT TAKE ANY COMMENTS ON HOW THE CAR RUNS ON THE W.A.R CHIP AS ANY REFLECTION ON THE PRODUCT ITSELF UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE.

The plan now is to refit the AFM (I wish I'd never cut that plug off!!), buy an AFM-mounted mixer with whatever size venturi it comes with, and use the best of the generic chips.

..... But in the meantime, I'm putting it back together with the flap opener this afternoon.

[e301988325i]

Chris, I didn't want to afford btb's full system so had it replicated by powerflow (sorry btb), nothing like the quality but fit for pupose. So I've got 6-2-1 @ 2.5" dia, lamba in the 2-1 joining piece, two silencers which are effective at light loads but loud at full chat. My friend said it sounds like a superbike but smoother! Are you going to fit it all inside the original air box utilising the original cold air feed?

Stu, I know how you feel, I can only justify it on the £100/1000 mile saving, my total lpg spending is getting silly now. Perhaps you could get Ant to lpg spec the best chip you've got?

I'm starting to realise the bargain I've got with the MAF / unichip setup, mini blob must have spent loads getting it done! Without being a vulture, if I didn't have that, I'd buy the WAR chip from you, I may be intersted in the MAF though if you do change direction.

Are either ofyou going to use backfire protection if so what, an in line cat flap?

[StuBeeDoo]

Are either ofyou going to use backfire protection if so what, an in line cat flap?

Once I get the AFM-mounted mixer I'm not going to bother. I've had one very small backfire in 4 years - and that was my fault for trying to get the engine to run without the flap opener.
I'll just carry a spare AFM in the boot.

[CHR1S1990]

+1 on this, no catflap - its a worthwhile risk IMO for the power you lose. OK thanks alex, I have a good condition boysen backbox and centre silencer here thats all and wonder how it sounded with the BTB3 and x-pipe. At present I have a straight through scorpion system with no centre silencer, just some stainless welded pipe - it has begun to irritate me a little.

I may try put it in a standard airbox but when I go MS i will probably use an airbox as there will be a lot more room.

[e301988325i]

The plan now is to refit the AFM (I wish I'd never cut that plug off!!), buy an AFM-mounted mixer with whatever size venturi it comes with, and use the best of the generic chips.

..... But in the meantime, I'm putting it back together with the flap opener this afternoon.

FYI, you can mount the stock AFM to the airbox, then mount whatever mixer you like inside the airbox with, so long as it seals and all the air goes through it. There are some pics somewhere but I've no idea where.

[CHR1S1990]

+1, think it was on a thread for one of Brians installs.

[StuBeeDoo]

Hhmmm. This could be worth me looking at. TBH, I hadn't thought about it.
Might be able to do something utilising one of those adaptor thingys the cone filters fit on + one of the mixers I have kicking around.

Nearly finished refitting the AFM now. Just got to connect the electrics and swap the ECU.

[e301988325i]

You're not messing about then. . . . I've still got that adaptor if required FOC.

[Brianmoooore]

You may have answered this already, but I'm not wading through eight pages to find it.
Why are you persisting with a single point venturi system? Surely multi point injection would solve a lot of your problems at a stroke.
I've mounted the mixer inside of the airbox on every single point conversion I've done. just seal around the feed pipe with a little black silicon rubber, or use a thick sponge rubber washer between the mixer and the airbox case.

[e301988325i]

My main reasons are:

1) Still haven't broken even so don't want to ditch what is not paid for, nor shell out another £1K for sequential.
2) Reliability of single point and leo,
3) Switch over to lpg early.
4) Really don't want the hassle of starting over in terms of installation, removing manifold drilling holes in it, possibly having to remove it again to size the injectors, hassle of mounting injectors, etc etc

[StuBeeDoo]

THE FOLLOWING ISSUES WERE CAUSED BY INPUT ERROR BY ME.
PLEASE DO NOT TAKE ANY COMMENTS ON HOW THE CAR RUNS ON THE W.A.R CHIP AS ANY REFLECTION ON THE PRODUCT ITSELF UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE.

Why are you persisting with a single point venturi system? Surely multi point injection would solve a lot of your problems at a stroke.

I was thinking earlier this afternoon that what I've spent would have been better invested in an injection front-end. Now that I've run-out of funds, it's certainly no longer an option.

However, I think I may now have the answer to fitting one of the mixers I have in stock inside the air filter casing I originally adapted for the MAF. That is going to be the project for two weeks time.

Although I have removed it and gone back to the last generic chip for now, I haven't totally given-up on the W.A.R chip yet.

[StuBeeDoo]

I think I may now have the answer to fitting one of the mixers I have in stock inside the air filter casing I originally adapted for the MAF. That is going to be the project for two weeks time.

OK, here's the plan:-

70mm hole already cut in air filter casing from the MAF cock-up and the AFM mounting holes still intact........



Mixer. Outer diameter? - 70mm.



I hope you can see where this is going.
Bolt the AFM in place with P-clips under the bolt heads inside the air filter case.
Use the P-clips as anchors for straps across the body of the mixer.
Seal any gaps between the mixer and the filter case.
Drill the case for the vapour pipe.

Total outlay?? The cost of the P-clips.

Question is, will it work?

[StuBeeDoo]

You're not messing about then.

Too right I'm not!
I had it all back together and running 15mins after that post.

Had to go and put some Tescos 99 in the tank. It's the only petrol it will run on without pinking on the chip I'm using. £134.9p/ltr! I even tried Opitmax before and it pinked on that! It must be the 5% ethanol content of the Tesco stuff.
That was what got me fired-up for getting the mapping sorted.........

[Brianmoooore]

My main reasons are:

1) Still haven't broken even so don't want to ditch what is not paid for, nor shell out another £1K for sequential.

Last sequential system I bought (Prins VSI - the best) cost me £600, and had a perfectly viable E36 325i attached to it with a mint M3 leather interior.

2) Reliability of single point and leo,

Certainly reliable, but so is the VSI.

3) Switch over to lpg early.

A resistor connected in parallel with the temp. sensor on the vaporiser sorts this. Switched over after about half a mile in the coldest weather a month or so back. Currently switching after around twenty yards, which is the first time I lift off of the throttle.

4) Really don't want the hassle of starting over in terms of installation, removing manifold drilling holes in it, possibly having to remove it again to size the injectors, hassle of mounting injectors, etc etc

Marginally more work than fitting a mixer and a Leo, but still all pretty simple stuff. Vaporiser is usually physically smaller than a single point one, and uses the same coolant connections, so fairly easy to change over.

[StuBeeDoo]

THE FOLLOWING ISSUES WERE CAUSED BY INPUT ERROR BY ME.
PLEASE DO NOT TAKE ANY COMMENTS ON HOW THE CAR RUNS ON THE W.A.R CHIP AS ANY REFLECTION ON THE PRODUCT ITSELF UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE.

How do you feel now about the off the shelf Miller MAF and chip?

Same as before. All you get is the MAF and a generic chip, unless you buy the MAF + W.A.R chip bundle. IIRC it was Malcolm who posted that his is generic chip is causing over-fuelling and Miller have never been able to address the problem.

I've been thinking again about this (bloody insomnia!). Malcolm has a problem with his Miller-supplied chip overfuelling and Miller were unable to resolve it.
The maps I've had from Miller all have fuelling issues whether they are AFM maps or MAF ones.
OK, I can understand me having problems using an M50 MAF with their maps, but what I don't get is why the fuelling is so far off on an AFM map that was supposed to be written for an engine with a similar spec to mine. In theory my engine shouldn't run any worse than it does with any of the generic chips I've used.
I'm wondering if there's some kind of common issue here.

I'm in a real dilema(sp?) here. I don't want to give up on the W.A.R chip, I've wasted for too much money on the car ("rebuilt" engine that didn't last 18 months, diffs that aren't as quiet as they've been made out to be, "live remaps" that are anything but, generic chips - the list goes on) without adding another £300 to the bill. Having said that I also don't want to throw any more money at Motoscope if there's little chance of getting the fuelling spot-on. I can't in all honesty punt the W.A.R chip on - I have enough trouble not sleeping as it is without knowing that I may have stitched someone up.

[StuBeeDoo]

But now you do seem to be getting results,well done!

Sorry Malcolm, but I don't call £216 for 3hrs dyno time and still having a car that's pretty much undrivable on petrol because the p/t fuelling is still way off a result.

Now, if we had just got the fuelling right and I had to go back and get the ignition on petrol and LPG done at another time, that would at least have been something..........

[daimlerman]

Seems like the 'imaginary pillow pirates' have a lot to answer to!

You have WOT and idle right on petrol,you 'just' need to sort out the in between bit,it seems....can this not be done via a laptop and trial and error?
I thought that this was the intention with the Miller WAR thing,the ability to adjust the damn thing yourself?
I thought that you could perhaps create several maps,load the little buggers up and toddle off to the rolling road expert and run each in turn for you/him to analize to see which is closest,then tweak that one?












Or am I just thick?

[Ant]

thick - no dude, just you've failed to understand where the issue lies with this.

anyone can buy any product on a DIY basis, but that product is only as good as the support offered from the vendor, in this case the software is poor to say the least, and tech support non existant.

this IS rocket science if you dont have the mech eng or computer background.

@ Stu, send me some software dude !!

[daimlerman]

It's the tech support issue that Miller showed regarding my overfuelling that is stopping me going down this route,Ant,FYI my overfueling is above 3000rpm...an area I only use whilst accellerating...so is relatively un-important!


Purely from a petrolhead POV,I am trying to improve my knowledge of the 'black art' of tuning these electronic systems!


In my youth we used to take emery paper to SU needles to change fueling,and fiddle with counterwieghts in distributers.....

[Ant]

^^ same as that dude, BBC needle and a yellow spring with some 5W fork oil, those were the days.......... I'm 37 BTW

not meant to belittle anyone BTW

[Brianmoooore]

Bit of a coincidence, this coming up today!
Son in law was here yesterday, asking about tuning a Ford crossflow he has ideas of using in a 'seven'esque kit car. I dug out my copy of David Vizard's "Theory and practice of cylinder head modifications", which I probably haven't opened since the mid 70's, and folded inside were several pieces of graph paper with SU needle profiles on them, all marked up with where bits needed to be trimmed off.

[StuBeeDoo]

THE FOLLOWING ISSUES WERE CAUSED BY INPUT ERROR BY ME.
PLEASE DO NOT TAKE ANY COMMENTS ON HOW THE CAR RUNS ON THE W.A.R CHIP AS ANY REFLECTION ON THE PRODUCT ITSELF UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE.

You have WOT and idle right on petrol,you 'just' need to sort out the in between bit,it seems....can this not be done via a laptop and trial and error?
I thought that this was the intention with the Miller WAR thing,the ability to adjust the damn thing yourself?
I thought that you could perhaps create several maps,load the little buggers up and toddle off to the rolling road expert and run each in turn for you/him to analize to see which is closest,then tweak that one?

Malcolm, this is pretty much what I was hoping for. However, the reality is a long way short. I'll try to answer your post here.

Miller will e-mail any maps a user requests, from their files. That in itself, on the face of it, is fine. What isn't fine is that I've had 3 different files from them - 2 AFM ones and 1 MAF - and on all 3 the fuelling has been way off. I would at least expected that the car would have run on one of the AFM maps, if not both. It was undrivable. I can, sort of, understand there being an issue with the MAF map I requested because it is supposed to be for their MAF, not the M50 one I was using - there could be a world of difference in the outputs. There is also a possibility that I didn't wire the MAF in correctly. Although I cheched, double checked and triple checked which wires I had going where, I've no way of knowing if the diagram I was following is correct.

Now to the laptop. The first issue is that the mapping can't be done fully live because plugging the USB from the chip into the laptop kills the ignition. Every change you make on the laptop has to be uploaded to the chip. That in itself wouldn't be a problem if it didn't take roughly 2 minutes (I haven't actually timed it, but believe me I don't think I'm exaggerating) to upload every time. I might get the ECU later and time an upload.

What you have on the tables is;-
18 sites for idle fuelling + 8 for ignition
224 each for part-throttle fuelling and ignition
16 each for WOT fuelling and ignition
Total?.... 506 individual sites on the map.

So, say you want to alter the fuelling at WOT between 3k and 5k rpm. That's 6 sites on the map. You make the changes to the parameters on the laptop.
You upload them to the chip.
Then you run the car. They're still not right.
So, you tweek them on the laptop and upload again.
Now you're a bit nearer, but still a little off, so you repeat the process again.
By the time you get them right, you're probably looking at 15 minutes gone by.
Obviously, the more sites you can do in one go, the less time it takes. But when the fuelling is a long way off you need to be looking at as few sites at a time as possible. It took getting on for 3 hours to get 34 sites somewhere near right. That just leaves 472. Slow or what? I allowed for 8 hours, and expected to have to go back for maybe a couple more, to get it running 100% on petrol and also map the ignition on LPG. Then it should have just been a case of going back for another couple of hours to do another map for regular unleaded rather than Tescos 99.

At this point, I should be honest and say that with hindsight I should have done more research before buying. Had I known what I do now, I wouldn't have bothered. I'm fairly certain that there aren't any issues with the engine management because it runs far better on the generic chip than the W.A.R chip.

In my youth we used to take emery paper to SU needles to change fueling,and fiddle with counterwieghts in distributers.....

I was thinking this just this morning. Give me a box of needles and another with bob-weights and springs in any day.

[Ant]

Stuart, screenshots plz...

also no 1x8 table for the AFM base calc that can be tweaked ? can you ask the software to search for individual map locations not provided by Miller ??? I can supply these if req on an eyes only basis though, I'm not giving all the game away

[daimlerman]

Thanks,Stu,I am just starting to understand a little better what yourself and Ant are saying.

I guess that if you had access to a dyno for free(ie you own/operate one)this sort of thing would be a whole lot easier!

In the olden days we used to be happy with,perhaps,50% running properly,we seem to expect that the electronics will sort out issues and give us 100% running properly.

Something that we take for granted in this age of electronic engine management is cold starts,we expect to jump aboard,turn the key and just drive away,no issues,no kangarooing,no stalling.
To step back into the carberettor age,just remember how you had to balance the choke against the throttle,and the huge 'flat spot' when you opened the throttle with a part warmed engine...all sorted by the modern ECU!

At the very least,Stu,you have had the balls to try something different,and I for one salute you for trying.

[Ant]

Hmmm, triple SU conversion on an M20, go-on, I dare someone lol !

[StuBeeDoo]

That in itself wouldn't be a problem if it didn't take roughly 2 minutes (I haven't actually timed it, but believe me I don't think I'm exaggerating) to upload every time. I might get the ECU later and time an upload.

Just timed it. 1min43sec per upload.


Ant. I appreciate your input on this. However, for some reason my laptop won't do screen shots.

I could probably transfer the tables to spreadsheets if you could work with that. Obviously I wouldn't expect you to do anything for free.

[StuBeeDoo]

THE FOLLOWING ISSUES WERE CAUSED BY INPUT ERROR BY ME.
PLEASE DO NOT TAKE ANY COMMENTS ON HOW THE CAR RUNS ON THE W.A.R CHIP AS ANY REFLECTION ON THE PRODUCT ITSELF UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE.

also no 1x8 table for the AFM base calc that can be tweaked?

Doesn't look like it.

can you ask the software to search for individual map locations not provided by Miller ???

Again, doesn't look like it.

All there is access to is;-
Rev limit
Fuelling
Ignition
Idle speed
O2 sensor on/off.



TBH Ant, much as I appreciate your interest and input on this, I really don't think I can be arsed with it anymore. I've made yet another mistake and, like the others, I'll just take it on the chin.

If, at a later date, I do decide to have another go, I'll see if Miller will do me a custom map. But even that needs AFRs e-mailed to Miller and they then e-mail you back modded map tables.

There is a Pro version, but it's "more complex and intended for professional tuners only". I would assume that it would include access to what you've asked about and I don't have.