Turbo Guru's - Head work

[Steve]

I'm looking to build a low boost turbo something around 270bhp as a daily driver in the summer.

I've been doing lots of research on turbos but tbh it's doing my head in a bit now, 2 turbo that keep coming up are:-

1) Garrett 0.63 A/R T3/T04E 50 trim with a Stage 3

2) Holset HX35.

I've heard the Garrett can cause back pressure and the HX35 could be overkill for my needs.

Any advice is gratefully received, I want to get my facts right before I start collecting parts.

Cheers

Steve

[MarkT]

TD05 16G wil be a good solution to your turbo needs, not too laggy due to size but will flow 360bhp. I'm going to be trying one on an M52.

[GeoffBob]

I'm looking to build a low boost turbo something around 270bhp as a daily driver in the summer.

I've been doing lots of research on turbos but tbh it's doing my head in a bit now, 2 turbo that keep coming up are:-

1) Garrett 0.63 A/R T3/T04E 50 trim with a Stage 3

2) Holset HX35.

I've heard the Garrett can cause back pressure and the HX35 could be overkill for my needs.

Any advice is gratefully received, I want to get my facts right before I start collecting parts.

Cheers

Steve

You really need to say for which engine Steve as this is critical to choosing the correct turbocharger. Application is also important: Road car, drag racer or track car, they each dictate a different turbocharger. Although you say "low boost" so I am going to assume you are building a road car?

My advice to you: Download a Garret Catalogue here and read the first few pages which will teach you roughly how to choose the right turbocharger. Even if you don't plan to buy a genuine Garrett, the info will still be of value to you.

Unless you take the time to understand what parameters to consider when deciding what defines a good match to your engine you will be at the mercy of every man and his dog who will tell you to buy either what they are selling or they think is right. Take the time to learn how a turbocharger works and you will empower yourself to make the right decision for your own application.

BTW, that Garrett you list above is not actually a Garrett. It is in fact a Chinese knock-off of a popular Turbonetics turbocharger. You will not find that turbocharger in the Garrett catalogue.

[Ziggy]

It's a M20B25 road car

[Steve]

You really need to say for which engine Steve as this is critical to choosing the correct turbocharger. Application is also important: Road car, drag racer or track car, they each dictate a different turbocharger. Although you say "low boost" so I am going to assume you are building a road car?

sorry yes it's for a road car, on a low comp M20B25

BTW, that Garrett you list above is not actually a Garrett. It is in fact a Chinese knock-off of a popular Turbonetics turbocharger. You will not find that turbocharger in the Garrett catalogue.

Really? that's good to know, as it had Garrett on the side of turbo and advertised as a Garrett, here's the ad http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Garrett-Journal-B ... 27b0422432

Unless you take the time to understand what parameters to consider when deciding what defines a good match to your engine you will be at the mercy of every man and his dog who will tell you to buy either what they are selling or they think is right. Take the time to learn how a turbocharger works and you will empower yourself to make the right decision for your own application.

This is what I'm finding, I'll download catalogue and take a look.

Cheers

[GeoffBob]

It's a M20B25 road car

In that case I'd suggest having a look at this thread here which relates to turbocharging the M20B25. Although it's not "low boost", the information is still of use.

The Mitsubishi TD05 (as punted my MarkT) gets a mention in this thread too because it's the turbocharger that ETA is using on his M20B25 IIRC?

[MarkT]

M52B28 Geoff, they cost about £100 over here, so handy as he's only going for a cheapish build.

[GeoffBob]

BTW, that Garrett you list above is not actually a Garrett. It is in fact a Chinese knock-off of a popular Turbonetics turbocharger. You will not find that turbocharger in the Garrett catalogue.

Really? that's good to know, as it had Garrett on the side of turbo and advertised as a Garrett, here's the ad http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Garrett-Journal-B ... 27b0422432

Hmmmm, that E-bay pic looks an awful lot like a real Garrett to me. They even bothered to spell "Garrett" with two R's and two T's. Makes me think that the pic was "borrowed" from the Garrett website.

Further down that page the seller shows pics of what are clearly knock-offs of the Turbonetics turbine housings. And yet the seller claims "Garrett factory assembled and balanced turbo for OEM reliability". Very odd.

[GeoffBob]

M52B28 Geoff, they cost about £100 over here, so handy as he's only going for a cheapish build.

Not you Mark, I mean the Zone member ETA (aka Malcolm). He is fitting (or has fitted) a Mitsubishi TD04 to his M20B25. I remember looking up the specs on the TD04HL-16T from a Volvo T5 for him (see here)

EDIT: Sorry, I'm getting confused, ETA is using a TD04 and you are using a TD05.

[Steve]

Hmmmm, that E-bay pic looks an awful lot like a real Garrett to me. They even bothered to spell "Garrett" with two R's and two T's. Makes me think that the pic was "borrowed" from the Garrett website.

Further down that page the seller shows pics of what are clearly knock-offs of the Turbonetics turbine housings. And yet the seller claims "Garrett factory assembled and balanced turbo for OEM reliability". Very odd.

They have 100% feedback as well so maybe people just don't know what they are buying!

In that case I'd suggest having a look at this thread here which relates to turbocharging the M20B25. Although it's not "low boost", the information is still of use.

The Mitsubishi TD05 (as punted my MarkT) gets a mention in this thread too because it's the turbocharger that ETA is using on his M20B25 IIRC?

Thanks for the info Geoff, I've just read the thread you suggested and would have to be honest and say my head is now hurting !

My other thought reading that thread is, I was thinking about purchasing TCD manifold which comes with T4 flange as I would be using some kind of T3 would this be a problem using this manifold?

[Ant]

I used a T13 B18 on my 1st one Steve, it was awesome for torque, not so great for HP

D1MMY has a T3/4 hybrid on his, makes good TQ (260 lbs/ft everywhere) and decent HP to boot, zero lag always a bonus dude

He's selling his complete engine if you're interested, the Granite Silver Sport is going OEM homo route now due to sheer rarity value( its a '91 car )

don't go HX35 or similar unless you want 360+ HP its wasted lol !

[Steve]

Ant, PM and let me know how much DIMMY is selling his set up for

[GeoffBob]

My other thought reading that thread is, I was thinking about purchasing TCD manifold which comes with T4 flange as I would be using some kind of T3 would this be a problem using this manifold?

I believe that it would be, I certainly wouldn't want the job of modifying a cast manifold. I think ETA (Malcolm) could advise you better on this. He used a manifold from a BMW M51 turbo-diesel turned upside down IIRC. I remember he had to have some or other spacer made up for it. I'm sure you'll find his thread if you search.

On the other hand, you could always fit a genuine Garrett or Turbonetics with a T4 turbine flange, but such a big turbine will result in a fair bit of turbo-lag. If all you are after is moderate power gains (no more than 0.5 to 0.7bar of boost) and good drivability, then a smaller turbine will spool up a lot quicker. A smaller turbine will, however, also choke much sooner, so its best not to expect/demand huge power gains of a smaller turbine.

As per Ant's comment above, I honestly wouldn't suggest an HX35 unless you are chasing big power and have time to kill while pulling away from traffic lights. The kick in the back once the turbo finally spools up can, however, be entertaining (better suited to a drag car IMO, not a road car).

[Steve]

I need to update this thread after doing lots of reading and taking lots Geoff's advice I've purchased a few bit and pieces

[eta]

Well I plan to use a TDO4 HL-16T but on an M20B27. Anyway that has not happened yet. I am getting some engine management changes done to enable a turbo system and the exhaust is getting upgraded as my existing stock one has failed everywhere. So with these upgrades the expensive bits are out of the way and the cheaper bit of fitting the turbo, intercooler and pipe work can then happen.

The TD04-HL-16T from a Volvo V70 T5 should work a treat on a M20B25 and should flow enough air for 270hp.

I also intend to use a M51 exhaust manifold and I now have a sensible price for an adapater plate to allow it to fit the 885 cylinder head. That should cost me around £150. I am hoping this manifold will allow enough flow for 250-300 hp which the turbo is capable of delivering.

[Steve]

I have so far :

TD05H 16G from a 2.5 WRX
Intercooler and pipes
megasquirt plug and play

and oh the shame an ebay mainfold but it's for research purposes only !

[Steve]

Megasquirt set up, I will also be running wasted spark, AFM delete

[eta]

A TD05 16G was the other turbo I was looking at but the Volvo one turned out to be cheaper second hand. You sould be able to get alot more than 270 hp with that set up.

[Steve]

To be honest I would be more than happy with 270bhp ,

After looking other people efforts on the net, most seem to chasing crazy amounts of power, is it really usable on uk roads and with the price of petrol going up every day, do you end up with a car you can't afford to run? (I must be getting old !)

This arrived today lots of bed time reading makes a change from php and mysql

[GeoffBob]

To be honest I would be more than happy with 270bhp ,

After looking other people efforts on the net, most seem to chasing crazy amounts of power, is it really usable on uk roads and with the price of petrol going up every day, do you end up with a car you can't afford to run? (I must be getting old !)

Not old, just sensible

Unless you go the large displacement route (big V8 or similar), turbocharging an engine will usually require a substantial drop in the compression ratio (CR) in order to achieve "crazy" HP. Unfortunately, the drop in CR will lower the engines thermal efficiency, and that means (even when your right foot isn't buried in the carpet) you'll still be paying more per mile than a higher CR engine. I've always believed in aiming for sensible numbers when it comes to turbocharging.

Enjoy the book, it's a good'n. Not too much detail (so as to put you to sleep) but more than enough detail to remove the guess work from your project.

[Steve]

I've had a few people ask how I was going to mount WRX turbo to the manifold because of the shape of the turbo flange, sorry the rough 3D model but you get the idea.





The 45mm diameter hole would have been tapered in the T3 flange (not shown on drawing below)


I have a T3 turbo now and will not be using this design

[fowler]

very nice design but steve just speak to to Ant i am sure he has the parts in the workshop for what you will require for turbo charging a m20b25 and the know how too
Cheers
Ben

[Gunni]

I've had a few people ask how I was going to mount WRX turbo to the manifold because of the shape of the turbo flange, sorry the rough 3D model but you get the idea.





The 45mm diameter hole would have been tapered in the T3 flange (not shown on drawing below)


I have a T3 turbo now and will not be using this design

for sure consider creating a smoother entry into the turbo, that what you have there will promote turbulence which is not beneficial.

What kind of NC machine did you plan on using?

[Steve]

very nice design but steve just speak to to Ant i am sure he has the parts in the workshop for what you will require for turbo charging a m20b25 and the know how too
Cheers
Ben

I know but where's the fun in that ! I'm sure the project will be in his workshop at some point

What kind of NC machine did you plan on using?

I have various mills and routers (and even a few lasers but I don't really use them for metal cutting) where I work.