Fritz's Bits

[Jonesy_325iS]

After reading the July issue of pbwm mag, Ive been onto fritz's bits at summerset asking him how to go about gettin my sport to 60 mph in sub 6 seconds.

He recons the best way is to tune the standard engine rather than a transplant, he says to get 6 seconds we will need around 250bhp, which he can get out of the standard engine by adding a free flow manifold and exhaust system, stage 3 head, steel followers, medium hot cam (somewhere around 280 should do), enlarged throttle body and totally mappable injection setup.

He says it'll cost me around 5k to make it work, and can do it all in 3-5 weeks!

Just wondering if any of you guys know of his work, and know if he is, as pbmw say 'Mr Old Skool' and know if he's a true expert when it comes to this kinda thing.

Cheers for ya help in advance!

Jonesy

[Jhonno]

sub what to 60?

250bhp for 5k.....

[Jonesy_325iS]

Sorry..........sub 6 seconds to 60

[Simon]

Ask him if he will put a no quibble money back guarantee on that performance figure, if so then go for it!!

[Jonesy_325iS]

Ask him if he will put a no quibble money back guarantee on that performance figure, if so then go for it!!

lol yeah I asked him if it comes with a rolling road print out to prove the figures and he kinda ignored the question! so ive asked him again and we'll see what he says!

[koos]

you could probably turbo your motor for less, with 250 or more HP!!!

Sounds good though.......

[Jonesy_325iS]

you could probably turbo your motor for less, with 250 or more HP!!!

Asked him about going the turbo/super charger route and his reply was sumic like:

"you could supercharge it, I beleive that Lowren Designs in
Canada do an off the shelf kit for about 2.5k which will boost your power
with a standard engine to about 260bhp, but having never seen or used one I cant really comment too closely. it sounds very cheap to me, and makes me wonder which corners they have cut. In any case i would think a good quality set up would cost a bit more than that.
I wouldn't recomend Turboing it, too much heat build up under the bonnet for my liking, and we all know how BMW engines love heat!"

[Lloydie38]

Ԛ£5000....if that's what you want to do then cool but it could be invested in many other options for the car. Experience says keep mods in order of:

1. Make it stop
2. Make it handle
3. Make it go

In any other order especially 'make it go' first you could total it on the first bend...Ԛ£5k down the plug 'ole OUCH!!

It's so tempting to get the speed sorted first but so painful if it goes t1ts up!

Not wanting to P155 on your chips buddy - just my personal advice as a fellow E30zoner

[Jhonno]

Ԛ£5000....if that's what you want to do then cool but it could be invested in many other options for the car. Experience says keep mods in order of:

1. Make it stop
2. Make it handle
3. Make it go

Amen!!

Thats how i do my cars every single time

[player6]

it will cast you a lot more than that to get 250 out of a m20 trust me and your have to do more to the engine

[Jonesy_325iS]

Ԛ£5000....if that's what you want to do then cool but it could be invested in many other options for the car. Experience says keep mods in order of:

1. Make it stop
2. Make it handle
3. Make it go

In any other order especially 'make it go' first you could total it on the first bend...Ԛ£5k down the plug 'ole OUCH!!

It's so tempting to get the speed sorted first but so painful if it goes t1ts up!

Not wanting to P155 on your chips buddy - just my personal advice as a fellow E30zoner

Who says I havnt already sorted the stopping and handling mate?

Full Apex suspension kit, EBC vented disks front and rear and EBC pads front and rear.

it will cast you a lot more than that to get 250 out of a m20 trust me and your have to do more to the engine

intresting. how do you know mate? are you a mechanic or have you done it to an m20 yourself? what do you think I need to do to get 250/260 out of the m20?


Cheers for the veiws people

[Jonesy_325iS]

......forgot to add ive got an anti roll bar kit too

[Jhonno]

Erm player's e30 owes him bout 17k i think he said

Standalone management, individual throttle bodies, headwork, 2.7... and he's expecting 250bhp from that

[Geeman]

Sell the car you have now, and with the money you get from it and the 5k you would have spent, buy an M3... and chip it. Simple.

Just my opinion...

[player6]

bexley have taken it to the max its a 2.8 i found out

[Russ]

It seems to me like a lot of outlay for not that much extra power. especially, you'll get hardly any of it back when it comes to resale time.

Wouldn't it be a better option to flog it and get something thats quicker straight out of the box?

[e30_Turbo]

My cars a sub 6 sec to 60 now, even with the blow at the manifold, you can have that for Ԛ£4999.99 if you like

On another note, what was Karans best 0-60 times, I thought he was around 6 secs to 60 and that state of tune could be had for a lot less than Ԛ£5k.

Player6's car is about a far as you can possibly go N/A, I doubt even 45's would give much more of a well setup M20, although there was that e21 running 250+ on a M20 too, was that owned by a zoner?

Good luck in your quest,

Mark.

[Adammcf]

Would 5k not put in an E36 3.0 lump?

[jmc330i]

Ive dealt with Rich at Fritz a number of times now.

He does know his stuff and is very very helpful, but his power figures/estimates can be a little exaggerated. The manifold and exhaust they do is a very nice, well built bit of kit and Ive seen the development stuff they have on it, but it didnt produce the power figures he first quoted me and that stopped me buying it. It does sound absolutly perfect though - the one I heard on a 635csi was just lovely

When he first told me that they could get 250bhp from an M20 without going the 2.7 route, I was a little doubtful and in the end I favoured the 'bigger lump' route, as (and this may sound weird) I didnt want to build a 2.7

Still, if he reckons 250bhp from a 2.5 M20 is possible, then proof will be needed, cause I reckon not many people will believe him.

Im not knocking him in any way and my car will still be going down there for all the jobs I cant be arsed to do for the simple reason, that I trust him around my car.

Would 5k not put in an E36 3.0 lump?

Pretty much.

[Geeman]

What about a little bit of nitrous to help you along...?

[Simon13]

karans car has done 5.8 0-60 on the g-tech! u wouldn't build his engine for 5k either as it's got virtually everything u want for a 2.7

my standard sport has done 6.8 0-60 i think thats pretty good with just a stainless system.

tell mr fritz that with all that stuff he stated u would be lucky to get 190bhp.

when bmw raced the 325 the full on race spec engines which didn't idle and were only happy at over 5000 rpm made about 250bhp and that was as far as they could take the 2.5 back then. I doubt they could get alot more from it now.

[Demlotcrew]

250bhp with all that work, never!

Andrew

[Andyboy999]

250 bhp my ar8e. With that spec it might, just might, do 200 bhp on a good day. You can talk all you like about throttle bodies but at the end of the day this is an old 2 valve per cylinder engine which in FULL RACE tune - i.e not road useable - did 240 bhp when built by Hartge as opposed to some guys in Somerset. Their exhausts are very nice though although it has to be said that it's hard to get a serious power increase over the standard 4 bolt iron manifold which is actually pretty efficient. Later U.K built Alpina C2 2.7's came with an iron manifold and fitting the tubular one gives about 3 bhp. Seen one on a dyno before and after.

That would be pissing 5 grand up the wall. Sell it and buy an E36 M3 if you want that sort of power. Or buy a scruffy 535i E34 manual with a nice engine (about Ԛ£350) , add a Piper cam kit (Ԛ£500 with a head gasket set) and some of Karan's M30 mounts and you'll have a real 230-240 bhp and loads of torque.

E30 Adams car has (I believe) a 280 degree cam and is a 2.8 and that doesn't do much more than 200. Getting much more than 210 bhp out of an M20 is hard work. E30 Zone is full of experts on this because we've been there and done it!

[Demlotcrew]

Well bexleys did a 2.7 with no cams and stock exhaust which made 240bhp! so maybe Mr Bits is telling us the truth?

Or for Ԛ£4500 i could also tell you that with some bolt ons ill get you 280bhp from a 2.5!

Now i wont mention the work that Dales car had! and the power it produced.

Andrew

[Andy335Touring]

cough-bull sh!t-cough

[Andyboy999]

Well bexleys did a 2.7 with no cams and stock exhaust which made 240bhp!
Andrew

Yeah, course they did. So an old 2.7 M20 with standard 325i cam and exhaust does more power than a 2.5 Sport Evolution M3? Don't thonk so. Remember that old adage about believing none of what you read and even less of what you hear??

The reason it SHOWED 240 bhp is because it was an automatic and no dyno yet made can figure out how to adjust for transmission losses because an autobox does not do engine braking. On my Dad's dyno, an identical Sun Ram IX, a standard Alpina C2 2.7 Automatic gave 265 bhp!
On that basis, the Bexley's 2.7 gives about 185 bhp which is about the going rate. 15 bhp for an extra 200 cc is spot on.

Sorry, but the only power figures I will take seriously are those I see on an accurate dyno, minus the bullsh1t factor adjusted into them!

[Demlotcrew]

Andy, sarcasm? I dont know if you remember but on the very next day i was flamed for saying to everyone that bexleys factored in far too much bullshit with that car! No i guess you dont!

Andrew

[Demlotcrew]

Just to add i found out that for 4k bexleys will stick a S14 2.5l into a E30.

Andrew

[Andyboy999]

You mean Bexleys tell bare faced l**'s? Gosh, I'm really shocked.

Eye, I knae that ye be jestin' laddie

Hmmm, well as we all know an engine needs two things to make power, fuel and air.
So if an engine normally gives 170 bhp with a 252 degree cam, that means that Bexley's ECU trickery and superb engine building skills mist be giving that engine a whopping 70 bhp from a mere 200 cc capacity increase.

Now that impressive. I think Herr Boveniepen will be on the blower with a contract

Honestly, they must think we're f*cking stupid. Freitxley's Motor Works??

[A1BMW325iSport]

no way i`d spend anywhere near that on tuning, if i had 5k spare i`d buy an E36 M3, but each to his own.

[Simon13]

i'm hoping to build a 2.7 if i can make 200bhp i will be a seriously happy man!

[Geeman]

Remember that old adage about believing none of what you read and even less of what you hear??

Coming from a well known magazine 'contributor' that's pretty funny!

Which reminds me... a while back you wrote an article about fitting a 2.5 throttle body to a 320i... your Ring-Racer I think... good practical stuff. Then in the technical help section, one of the answers to somebody's question stated that this contributor (unknown person) had never seen a performance increase from fitting an overbored throttle body on an M20, and it was a waste of time fitting one!

Me thinks people don't talk to each other at the magazine... was quite funny.

[Geeman]

Simon... when the time's right I'll be moving on my 525e. 63k with FSH and drives like a dream. Ideal for an engine donor...

Will be advertising it on the Zone sometime in the future... but for now it's my choice of daily driver.

[Jonesy_325iS]

alot of feedback since ive been gone.

Sell the car you have now, and with the money you get from it and the 5k you would have spent, buy an M3... and chip it. Simple.

Just my opinion...

True, but then it would be an m3 with a chip, and not my car putting out 250bhp, which is what i was after. looking at it from your point of veiw, I could sell mine, buy a scooby for 4-5k, then the sky is the limit when it comes to bhp. I seriously thought about buying a scooby or a saph cossie, but at the end of the day when I stand back and look at my 30, i just dont think I could sell it! ive had an mr2 turbo before and a celica gt4 before that, and I simply like my sport better but miss the power really badly!

It seems to me like a lot of outlay for not that much extra power. especially, you'll get hardly any of it back when it comes to resale time.

Wouldn't it be a better option to flog it and get something thats quicker straight out of the box?

yeah of course that would be a better option! but then its just another standard car, and thats not what I want

My cars a sub 6 sec to 60 now, even with the blow at the manifold, you can have that for Ԛ£4999.99 if you like

lol not if its an mr2 mate! they shite! had one. never again!

Would 5k not put in an E36 3.0 lump?

not according to John at Zoom Motorsports and Kevin from Birds......they qoute around 6k plus the engine and gearbox!

when i asked Rich from Fritz's about that transplant he said 'thats always an option, but we specilise in tuning stock engines and getting the most out of them' so that why im asking you guys about it

my standard sport has done 6.8 0-60 i think thats pretty good with just a stainless system.

from about 8 seconds to 6.8 just from an exzorst??? hmmmm

E30 Zone is full of experts on this because we've been there and done it!

.......I know, thats why I'm turning to you guys for advice!

no way i`d spend anywhere near that on tuning, if i had 5k spare i`d buy an E36 M3, but each to his own.

again mate, it would just be another e36 m3.....




So basicly the general veiw is the Fritz guy is talking shit? and 5k wont get me 250-260 bhp? Ok fair enough, im glad I asked coz now I wont go any further with his plan unless he can guarentee the figures by proof on a dyno, which is what I would of done anyways!

Right, so ive still got the huge problem of getting some decent power from my sport! from what ive been qouted from the places I mentioned above, im not guna get a 3.0 or 3.2 e36 m3 engine for my 5k budget! so whats the crack now? can anyone recomend with 100% that any decent company can do the 3.0/3.2 transplant for 5k or less? Or a supercharged/turbo charged conversion for that matter? A set up that wont destory my engine after a few thousand miles that is!

If not then it looks like im gunna have to do the worse possable thing and bite the bullet, sell me car and get a scooby/cossie! ( bad memories of engines blowing up for fun ) or even join the millions of other people and get into debt for a new type-r !!!!!!!


Cheers for all the help lads, any more comments will be appreciated!