Easy and chep solution for improving 325 engine performance

[moggy]

Hi

We competed in the CSCC Future Classics yesterday in our 325.

Does anyone have any solutions of an easy way to increase engine performance out of an unmodified 325 lump? Perhaps swapping the ECU for example? The series is pretty free when it comes to modifications.

Thanks

[ross_jsy]

A speed touch chip should be your first port of call.

Besides that, there isn't anything cheap you can really do.

[Fushion_Julz]

Depends on what you regard as easy...

Easiest way to get more performance is to reduce weight...170bhp will be lots if your car weighs <950Kg

Problem with getting (a lot) more power from the M20 is the inlet tract and AFM...getting rid of the AFM and running Alpha N or similar will help...or convert to run on triple webers...
After that, cam and headwork, lighten and balance the bottom end, then increase the CR...

[Ant]

remove all the carpets trim and sound deadening.

then pull the sunroof cassette out and throw in the skip

that should drop about 80 lbs out of the cars all up weight.

to go quicker a proper service would be my 1st call, a worn dizzy cap and rotor can cost you 22 HP easily on these BTW !

no cone filters !!!!!!

[moggy]

Thanks

We have been through all the weight saving processes and we are well aware of servicing.

Speed touch chip sounds interesting....what's that then?

[getting rid of the AFM and running Alpha N or similar will help] What is that exactly?

[ross_jsy]

Offers a few chips, best to PM him on here.

Also believe that Ant from up there ^^ offers chips too correct?

Has a cool sounding switchable ecu on offer at the moment.

[Fushion_Julz]

Moggy: How much does your car weigh, then?

The AFM (Air Flow Meter) is quite restrictive (but then so is the Throttle Body and Manifold) and loosing it can improve the top-end...Especially useful if you are going to increase the rev limit. An unmodified, healthy, M20 can take 7000rpm without trouble...lighten and balance the bottom end and you can go to 8250rpm...any higher, though, and you will need uprated valve springs, for a start...

Alpha N is an after-market piggy-back metering system...do a (web) search for more info from the manufacturer...

You say your "lump" is unmodified...Assuming you have the lightest possible shell (under the rules and physically possible...and I've seen at least one E30 weighing in at <800Kg) and that your suspension and brakes are the very best allowed, then if the engine regs are fairly free you need to start modifying the engine...

[caneswell]

"Alpha-N" is just a method of Fuel Metering which uses "Alpha" the throttle position and "N" the rpm to work out how much fuel to squirt in!

There will be lots of ECU manufacturers that will offer Alpha-N control. MAXX is very popular with the E30 M3 crowd as an AFM delete. I've done it to mine and it was very easy and hasn't missed a beat since. Not sure if they offer a kit for the M20 engine. http://www.maxx-automotive.com/index.html

[moggy]

Thanks.

The cars weighs somewhere south of 1100kgs. It's never going to be as light as a 318 or 320.

We could change the glass windows or poycarb, the standard bonnet wings and boot to fibreglass or something similar, removing the passenger seat rails each time we race, remove all the unnecessary wiring, remove the heater matrix, remove most of the dash, remove the ABS unit....

Most of these cost some money or are a pain to do (otherwise they would have been done). At the moment we are thinking of buying something more exotic to race in next year hence we don't want to be doing things and spending money with the laws of diminishing returns.

If we can do something to the engine for <£100 or spend 1/2 day carrying out some mods then that would do nicely.

[agent006]

Chip, as has been said above.

There's no nice cheap easy mods on the M20 really. I've spent the best part of two grand on mine (cam, mapping, exhaust) and I've just about got 190bhp.

[Brian28]

Thanks.

The cars weighs somewhere south of 1100kgs. It's never going to be as light as a 318 or 320.

If we can do something to the engine for <£100 or spend 1/2 day carrying out some mods then that would do nicely.

Spend a bit of time looking for bits that aren't doing anything useful that you can remove. Even if you are planning on moving to something else, the car will always be easier to sell with better results. Been doing the same to a 318is, run out of bits to remove now and its still 40kg overweight.

ABS pump is worth getting rid of. Bumper inner linings and the shock things they are mounted on was something close to 30kg from memory. Swapping electric windows to manual was 6kg including looms. Sticking the bonnet on four bonnet pins and getting rid of the brackets, hinges etc saves a fair bit. If you don't want to spend money, concentrate on getting more weight off the car. At 1100kg its still on the porky side

[moggy]

ABS pump is worth getting rid of.

We've asked on here before on how to remove it and didn't get any sensible replies. Any thoughts?

Bumper inner linings and the shock things they are mounted on was something close to 30kg from memory.

I'm confused about this. There doesn't appear to be anything to remove. Got any pics?

Swapping electric windows to manual was 6kg including looms.

Interesting. I'd read on here before that the saving was negligible (which I suppose it is). It's quite handy having the elec windows in the car.

Sticking the bonnet on four bonnet pins and getting rid of the brackets, hinges etc saves a fair bit.

Done

If you don't want to spend money, concentrate on getting more weight off the car. At 1100kg its still on the porky side

With what you suggest it sounds like perhaps an easy 50kgs can be shed. Thanks

There's always the underseal to remove....

[Fushion_Julz]

Moggy

To remove the ABS you will need to re-route the brake pipes, but the ABS is a pain on a track anyway...certainly in racing terms.
After that you can remove the ABS pump, the electrics associated with it, the sensors and trigger rings...a fair amount of weight, I'd guess

The later plastic shell bumpers have some foam inserts...This can be removed to leave the shell alone...There are also the 5mph shock absorbers in the mounting assemble...these can go too...Replace the mounts with a long bolt drilled at the end for split pins...Makes it easy to remove the front bumper to allow trailer loading, for example...

Saving 6 kg just from the window motors and associated wiring is a fair amount of free weight...If your car is a 4-dr, you'll save double the weight, too! Every little helps...

With all steel panels, I'd concentrate on getting the car down to 975Kg, but leave the heater matrix in place or you'll need an electric heated windscreen...

All trim and sound deadening material can go, sunroof, all unnecessary bits of the dash, swap the battery for a racing one, small windscreen washer reservoir, remove all headlamp washers, etc, etc...
All the little bits add up...You don't need them on a race car so bin them...free speed/acceleration, that!

[moggy]

Julz - we have already done what you have suggested.

I suspect we have the earlier bumpers then...

Rear windows are winders, not electric. Pretty much everythig removed from that.

I suspect there's pusihing on 20kgs of surplus wiring located around the car but this would seem a pretty time consuming job to remove (learning and research time especially)

[Fushion_Julz]

Earlier bumpers are chrome metal rather than plastic...(pre-facelift)

As you remove more weight, each successive kg becomes more effective...so 20Kg of wiring is worth getting rid of...although I suspect it won't be quite as much as that...
However, the 30kg ish of the ABS is easier and simpler to sort...

A stripped out E30 with polycarb windows (glass screen), fibreglass bonnet and boot lid and M10 on slide throttles and mechanical injection weighs a tad under 800Kg.

A rally built e30 with 2.7 M20 on slide throttles and full gravel rally strengthening, glass all round and co-driver equipment, but otherwise fully stripped, weighs around 1150kg...

So at 1100kg you have a fair bit of extra weight still on the car. Fibreglass bonnet and boot cost less than £400 so are well worth getting hold of

[moggy]

1. However, the 30kg ish of the ABS is easier and simpler to sort...

2. A stripped out E30 with polycarb windows (glass screen), fibreglass bonnet and boot lid and M10 on slide throttles and mechanical injection weighs a tad under 800Kg.

3. So at 1100kg you have a fair bit of extra weight still on the car. Fibreglass bonnet and boot cost less than £400 so are well worth getting hold of

1. Can you provide some thoughts on how to go about this. See above, we have previously asked for advice on how to remove and got a blank.

2. I'm not sure this is correct. There's a long thread on the weight of an e30. I don't think anybody was <900kgs (certainly not by much) and that included a couple of Kumho's. We also have a heavy 2.5 lump.

3. £400...... See above...

[Fushion_Julz]

I know for sure that the car in question (M10 318i) did exist and weighed in at <800kg...
It was owned by Chris Randall (runs Zaprace and owns the ex Belgium CSL amongst others) and ran in the BMWCC championship in the 90s...

My 02 was in the same class...originally on engine capacity and later on power to weight...My car weighed 750Kg with 198bhp...Chris' had a bit more power due to the injection (around 215bhp), but weighed that fraction more, too...We both had plastic windows and panels, though (my bonnet and bootlid were Zaprace bits)...

Yes, the M20 weighs a bit more (about 45kg, IIRC)...but you should be able to get the car to around 950kg without too much hassle...A standard, low-spec pre-facelift 4 cyl car weighed just under 1000kg...

Just found a picture

To remove the ABS unit you will need to reroute the brake pipes direct to the master cylinder...Once this is done, just remove the pump, relays and wiring loom for it...You can also remove the wheel sensors and the trigger rings from the hubs, if you choose...
You can also, obviously, remove all the excess brake piping...

I know you are on a budget...but £400 isn't a lot when you are racing! You could spend £200 or whatever on a chip, but alone you are only going to get about 15bhp at the flywheel...so about 7.5% increase...

If you reduce your 1100kg weight by 100kg (10%) you have increased the power to weight by more than the chip...A fibreglass bonnet weighs 5kg or so...No idea what the weight of a steel bonnet is, but I'd bet at least 35kg...there is 30kg of your 100kg startight away...another 20kg ish saving on the bootlid all for £400 or less...
Remove the ABS and underseal/sound deadening and you are looking at another 40kg ish...

[Brian28]

Sorry had assumed that it was a facelift with the plastic bumpers, these have a heavy inner lump that can be removed just leaving the outer plastic shell. TBH if you are racing, even if not taking it that seriously and on a tight budget there is no excuse for not investing a bit of time searching for removeable kilos, its free speed . I removed the ABS on a PBMW 320, but a few years back now so a bit hazy on the detail. If you have a look under the bonnet of a non ABS car at the brake master cylinder its pretty straightforward, just different pipes running between the front caliper flexi pipes and the original master cylinder. From memory there is a blanking plug under the master cylinder that is removed for one of the new brake pipes, as you need one more than goes to the ABS pump. The loom is pretty easy to trace back through to the fuse box.
There is a fair bit to come from the boot, get rid of the inner lining and hinges etc and use bonnet pins/clips instead. You don't need a passenger side door card, so get rid of whatever is there. Do you have any photos of what has been done so far?

[moggy]

I'll dig some photos out. How do you show the pics?

[JasonR]

I've stripped a fair ammount of mine, where/how have you weighed your cars?

[moggy]

Oulton Park have a free weighbridge

[Fushion_Julz]

I'll dig some photos out. How do you show the pics?

You'll need to post them somewhere like photobucket and then post the link here...
Just click the "Img" button to surround the link URL with:

[DmcL]

good chip, possibly revving out to 7000rpm to give some extra revs to play with when approaching corners in the higher revs of any given gear. also ditch the passengers side front full beam lamp and stick on one of those cheapo ebay universal filter adaptors for the AFM (make sure to get a metal one, im using a 3 inch) then find a suitable diameter/length (again i used 3 inch) flexible intake pipe/hose and 1 suitably sized velocity stack/ram pipe. u can just squeeze a 3 inch pipe thru the stock hole in the backing plate for the full beam lamp so can be reverted back to sandard easy enough. fit the velocity stack on the portruding end of the pipe and then grab yourself a large pipercross foam sock filter and fit it over the velocity stack and secure it behind the stack with either a worm brive hose clamp or a cable tie.

the intake in fullbeam hole works wonders compared to both the stock airbox and an ordinary induction kit. if ur sceptical try it out on the road as its quick and easy to revet the setup back to stock after testing.

[MillRat]

The best way that I got speed out of my stardard M20B23 was a good 4.10 LSD. Top end was sligtly compromised, but that was never an issue as the car never had any top end to start with. Good plugs, leads and oil are also important.

Cheapest way to gain speed is to strip weight and up the gearing (differential). I installed a Miller MAF with WAR chip, and although we saw an improvement on the dyno, it did not translate to speed at the track, so my opinion on AFM delete, chips, etc. is that they can be a very expensive excerise for a few HP unless the engine has been worked over (in the end, the ol' M20 is not a modern, Audi turbo donk, that freeing up a load of power takes nothing more than a simiple phone call).

I know this is an older thread, but one that will interest many people. Good luck.

P.s. my E30 (coupe - M20), gutted with a tarmac rally cage weighs around 1000kg. Not hard to do, only time consuming.

[moggy]

Last night and last saturday we removed another ~ 30kgs out of the car:

Passenger runners removed ~ 15kgs

front door trims removed and glove box gone ~ 7kg

rear boot mech removed ~ 5kg

rear boot spoiler removed ~ 8kg

We've bought the chip mentioned above, however when we tried to instal to the ECU the instructions didn't mention there were two circuit boards sandwiched together-it didn't free up easily and we were concerned that we would brake it. Thoughts anyone?

We had a look behind the bumper and can see the foam inserts and the shock absorbers. What we struggled with was how to remove the metal bracket that allows the bumper to sit on the shock absorbers. It appears to be bolted in at 3 places on each bracket with only 1 bolt head showing? I suspect it's an angle grinder job unless there's a less blunt way?

We're racing at Brands on Sun in the CSCC future classics. There's another 325 out which should be good fun.

[Ant]

What ECU part number

0261 200 164 or 073 ???

[cragles]

Our e30 pbmwc is bang on the 1125kg limit with about 1/6 of a tank of fuel, including the driver and racing kit (85kg) and the passenger seat / mount (20kg). We used to run more fuel instead of the seat as ballast but decided that it's best to have less fuel moving about.

Thats 1020kg with 1/6 tank of fuel, so maybe around 1015kg empty. I know of other e30s in the series (also 320, like ours) which have 65kg of ballast fitted to get up to the base weight so it's possible to get it lighter!

[moggy]

What ECU part number

0261 200 164 or 073 ???

Speedtouch has pm'd me.

It looks like we have the wrong (older) ecu.

If anyone has a 173 or 380 ECU, a 172/381 (320i) ECU or even a 179 (535i) ECU, they are looking to shift please let me know.

[Brian28]

Last night and last saturday we removed another ~ 30kgs out of the car:

Good work chaps

We had a look behind the bumper and can see the foam inserts and the shock absorbers. What we struggled with was how to remove the metal bracket that allows the bumper to sit on the shock absorbers. It appears to be bolted in at 3 places on each bracket with only 1 bolt head showing? I suspect it's an angle grinder job unless there's a less blunt way?

Take the bumpers off, two bolts up from underneath into the shock mountings then slide out and off. The metal brackets come off with the inner bumper lining that you are removing, remove the mounting shocks from the car as well. The inner lining is some kind of high density stuff cased in ABS or similar, very heavy, guarentee when you throw that little lot on the scales you will be smiling, especially with the front lot gone from the right place. To re-mount the bumper skins, use the original sides to slide into. Take off the outer bumper black plastic trims and drill/bolt through the skins to the car. If you use dome bolts (like big gutter bolts) the heads are hidden when you put the plastic trims on again. I drilled through to the boot for the rear bumper, the front was just two bolts into the thread where you unbolted the shocks from. Will need another two nuts/washers in the centre of the bolts to lock against the bumper and the inner side to keep everything stable. At the front, use the original indicator fixings but move them from the inner bit to the outer skin (will make sense when you see it)

Cheers
Brian

[moggy]

Well, more weight removed. Brian, thanks for the tips on bumper insert removal - Done!

Also removed the inner skin lining from the boot - it's now like paper. I made a bit of a dogs dinner of it-the boot is a bit bumpy now.

I suspect this lot was getting on to 30kgs.

Must remember to weight it at Oulton on 12th June. For anyone interested I will be racing in the CSCC Future Classics that day.

[GuyM]

how did you go about removing the inner skin lining from the boot lid (i was thinking of doing this and to the bonnet too)
did you attack the underside structure with an angle grinder or did you try and do it neatly and hacksaw through all the mounting points where the frame meets the skin?

[moggy]

Angle grinder. A rough guess would be that the inner skin weighs 5kgs

Unfortunately I guess practice makes perfect with these things and I ended up putting a few dents in it. The inner section is glued to the bonnet so I used a hammer and screwdriver to remove although I suspect if I had more patience then a heat gun would have been neater.

Actually, can anyone recommend what is the best way to remove the inner skin from the bonnet and the rear door panel inner skins (ours is a 4 door) with an angle grinder? Any tips to keep it neat.

Longer term we will buy a grp bonnet and boot