Killarney Track Car, Video to watch on you tube, PG 5

All the info you need to race E30's

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GeoffBob
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Post Thu Apr 01, 2010 2:52 pm

Ok, I think i can see what has happened here. Your BOV was either setup to blow-off above a certain pressure, or it had a leak!

A. graham Bell speaks volumes in his book Forced Induction Performance Tuning about using blow-off valves to regulate the boost pressure of turbochargers. It's a concept that has fallen out of fashion in favour of the modern wastegate (which, admittedly, works similar to a BOV, except on the turbine side of the turbocharger). As the science of high-temperature materials advanced, the wastegate became more reliable, and hence more popular, since it is (logically) preferable to blow-off excess exhaust gas pressure through a wastegate (and hence regulate the turbine speed) than it is to run the turbine excessively fast and regulate the boost pressure by simply opening up a leak at the compressor outlet.

However, in the case of a supercharger there is (self evidently) no mechanism (such as a wastegate) to regulate the speed of the compressor wheel. The speed of the compressor is, quite obviously, a direct function of the engine speed in the case of a supercharger.

I therefore think that whoever tuned your car had set up your BOV to blow-off around 0.9bar. Short of your BOV having a leak (and this is not altogether uncommon) this is the only possible explanation. This would explain, most definitely, why you experienced problems when you removed the BOV! Either the boost climbed high enough (with the BOV now removed) to result in ignition problems, or your Go-Tech was detecting detonation and responding accordingly (possibly even cutting your ignition).

Whichever was occurring, I can however tell you this: If you are running your M20B25 to no greater than 0.9 bar boost, then you are flowing no more than 0.25 kg/s of air into your engine at 6500 rpm, and that will account for no more than 290 hp at your flywheel - and that's a fact.

Now, you mentioned a new BOV. Your BOV should be vacuum operated (ie, you have to suck on the diaphragm to make it open) and should be connected to the inlet manifold (ie: after the throttle valve). This way, when you take your foot off the throttle pedal, and the pressure inside the manifold falls lower than that at the outlet from the compressor (where the BOV should be located) the BOV will open and release pressure trapped between the compressor and the throttle valve. This is essential to prevent your compessor from going into what is called surge (where the airflow around the compressor blades becomes turbulent) due to the fact that the airflow through the compressor (due to the fact that the throttle is closed) is too low to sustain the the boost pressure that would otherwise be trapped between the compressor and the throttle.

I have a sneaky suspicion that your BOV did not have the one side of the diaphragm connected to the manifold. Hence, as the pressure built at the outlet of the compressor, the BOV progressively opened and leaked :eek: What a waste! This would have certainly kept your boost pressure down, and would certainly keep your engine away from detonation and ignition problems.
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GeoffBob
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Post Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:02 pm

tim_haynes wrote:The last track day I went on is where I was experiencing problems, the only change to car was taking Bov of. Maybe this is the problem or I have damaged the charger, but i felt problem on very first session so can't be charger. but it did feel like ignition problem, like a miss at high revs or lack of fuel.
I think possibly you were experiencing the effects of surge, not to mention forcing the pressurised air trapped between the compressor and the throttle to blow off backwards through the compressor and out through your air filter :eek: Really not what you want to be doing.

As discussed on the phone (I am guessing that your battery died?):
1) Fit your new BOV and adjust/shim the springs accordingly.
2) Check that your boost guage is operating correctly. Possibly borrow a spare one off someone to compare against.
3) Do a repeat test down the back straight at Kilarney and let me know the result.

If you are genuinely pushing 245kW at the flywheel (and I can well believe this on an M20B25) then there is no way you are doing it on 0.9 bar boost at 6500rpm. This is why I am convinced that there is a problem with either your boost gauge, or since your Dyno session you have sprung a leak somewhere.
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"It is amazing how many drivers, even at the Formula-1 level, think that brakes are for slowing the car down." - Mario Andretti
tim_haynes
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Post Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:26 pm

Well new bov on and working much better.

Whatever the case I will get to the bottom of this boost issue, even if I have to fit gauge before intercooler.

I'm going to start making the template to hold the 6 e46 coils tommorow. Will let you know how I get on! Enjoy your weekend.

Cheers
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GeoffBob
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Post Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:13 am

Tim. I redesigned the PCB over the Easter weekend and submitted the design to the manufacturer this morning. All designed to fit nicely inside the above enclosure. I'll be sending you an 8-channel unit (good for running a V8 with sequential ignition), although you'll only use six of these channels to run your 6-cylinder engine. The outputs from the unit connect direct to the E46 pencil-coils at the plugs.

BTW, I see that your Go-Tech Pro X ECU has a total of SIX ignition outputs, meaning that it is capable of driving a fully sequential six cylinder ignition system (such as the CDI I am sending you). I am concerned however, that your engine and ECU have no means of identifiying the difference between TDC Induction stroke and TDC Power stroke. Think about it - you have a sixty tooth wheel on your crank to provide ignition timing, but the index mark (near TDC) occurs twice every four strokes of the engine.

Tim, if you, or anyone else, can shed some light on this, then please do. I am personally not aware of any upgrade to your engine that we can do to "synchronise" your ECU to the exact stroke of the engine, which means we will likely have to run the CDI in a "wasted spark" configuration. Nothing really wrong with this, but as the name suggests, it is a bit if a waste. Why fire a channel of the CDI if you don't really have to.

Any tried and tested solutions anyone?
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Post Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:11 am

The only way would be to add a cam sensor, on the stock motronic 1.3 the ecu uses a ct on the lead to the no 1 spark plug to pick up the cam position, you could try to add another trigger wheel in place of the stock dizzy

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GeoffBob
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Post Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:33 am

Thanks Jason,

Correct me if I am wrong, but the stock dizzy on the M20 does not include any form of timing pickup (optical, inductive or otherwise?) at its base. I see that the Go-Tech Pro X ECU that Tim is using has facility for a further timing input, but I am unaware as to whether a) the stock dizzy includes any additional timing mechanism or b) there is a plug and play mod available from one of the aftermarket suppliers that fits the M20 dizzy.

If there is no quick and easy fix to this then I will recommed to Tim that he simply run the CDI configured for wasted spark, but it would be nice to run a fully sequential ignition system if possible.

Geoff
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Post Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:45 am

The l-jet cars and e21's use a 6-1 vr sensor in the dizzy (Conventional type) but this is crank driven so no good as a cam refernece.

The motronic cars basiclly use a 6 way rotary switch to distribute the spark of the end of the cam, so at a push you could get a signal from a on/off switch that makes once per cam rev.

As far as i know there are no of the shelf cam sensors for an m20

Jason
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tim_haynes
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Post Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:22 pm

Thanks Geoff for working over the weekend on it,

i honestly dont know what to do, but wasted spark might be the only option.

Currently manufacturing the plate to hold coils.
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GeoffBob
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Post Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:55 pm

Nothing really wrong with wasted spark Tim, its used as stock standard on many many cars. Just means that when you have one plug firing at the end of the compression stroke in one cylinder, you have another plug firing at the same time at the end of the exhaust stroke in another cylinder. It is, as the names suggests, nothing else other than a waste, but it works just fine.

You'd better alert your dyno chap to the fact that he'll need to re-program your Go-Tech to run in Mode-4 with 6-cylinders (See page 22 of the Go-Tech Pro X manual). You'll use the Red/white, black/white and white/green wires from the Go-Tech 24-pin plug to drive the 3+3 channels of the CDI. I'll supply more detail when I send the unit down to you, it's honestly a simple enough procedure.

And for heavens sake be careful with this thing. There's enough voltage at the output terminals to give you a very unhappy time. When I get the first PCB made up I'll fire it up on the bench and post up a few pics of the sparks that this thing can throw :D
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tim_haynes
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Post Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:00 pm

/ok geoff no problem, sounds good,

i mentioned to him that i will be fitting a cdi, he said its fine and will be able to set it up, ill look in book to.

hope tomo goes well for you!
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GeoffBob
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Post Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:38 pm

tim_haynes wrote:hope tomo goes well for you!
Ta, likely to be a PITA :D But thanks anyway.

If you never hear from me again you know it all went badly wrong 8O
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Stevin
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Post Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:47 pm

Another South African on here... I swear we have more of you guys on here than our local forums :P

Great build there tim_haynes! Any idea if you will come race with us in the BMW Challenge?
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tim_haynes
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Post Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:02 pm

ha ha, well we are both from the uk who moved to sa a few years ago.

to be honest stevin i dont no much about the bmw challenge? is it going to be in cape town to?
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Stevin
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Post Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:14 pm

Ok, I should have said another South African build on here then ;)

I'm not sure about this year, but there are plans to try bring it down to the coast. I for one would love to race at Aldo Scribante again!

The 1st even quite a few of the Cape Town e30 racers were up here at Kyalami. Roshan in his potent red e30, and a few others in e30 and e36 race cars who race in Clubmans.

The 1st event we had almost 30 cars, and all the fastest BMW's in the country are racing. Although for me this will only be a social type racing as we are more interested in Altech Challenge (if they will let us race past our invite status) and Super Saloons.
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Post Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:16 am

sounds good stevin, I know the clubmans cars, that red e30 is very quick! If they come down this way i would be interested.

Whats the altech challenge you are interested in? saloons?

cheers,

tim
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Post Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:30 am

Thought i would show you my bracket to hold pencil coils, very pleased with how it turned out. New ignition system is getting there now.

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GeoffBob
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Post Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:39 am

Wooooof! Very nice indeed Tim, :cool: excellent idea. Don't be surprised if this catches on with others. Some credit to Rix313 though I think for the effort he put in on his four-pot motors (thanks Rich for the info you PM'd me).

BTW: Those coils look identical to the sample I bought to test with.

Regards
Geoff
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Stevin
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Post Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:32 am

Altech GT Challenge is part of the Pro Tour. Basically GT race car challenge (I raced a couple races last year in my fathers friends Porsche and am now hooked on the series).

Super Saloons in a regional series up here in Johannesburg, with all types of cars but the fastest BMW in SA is racing there along with some other nice cars. It's the only place we can really race the car.
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Post Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:51 pm

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GeoffBob
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Post Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:04 pm

Hi Tim

'Got the PCB's back earlier than expected. 'Managed a drive into town yesterday to collect them (still in some pain), and then began to populate one of the boards with components. The new design PCB fits snugly into the new enclosure. Rather than using the end-plates supplied with the enclosure I plan to water-jet two new ones from 2mm aluminium plate. These will have the holes/slots cut into them for the connections to poke out. I’ll then have these powder coated to match the rest of the enclosure.

Due to the magnitude of the current that the circuit draws, I have opted to run heavy gauge black and red wires straight to the PCB, rather than put a power connector on to the enclosure. This is exactly the way that MSD do it (and I assume for the same reason).

Comms into the unit is via a 9-pin D-type connector. Each channel of the unit is triggered when the corresponding pin on the D-type connector is pulled to ground. This is in accordance with how all ECU's (with the exception of Honda I think) work. It certainly is the way your Go-Tech Pro-X works.

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Looking at the above pic you’ll see that I have populated six of the eight channels. This is obviously because you are operating a 6-cylinder engine. I plan to offer my CDI in 4, 6 and 8 channel variants. I don’t expect much demand for the 8-channel unit (for V8’s) but it’s still cheaper for me to build an 8-channel unit and only populate six of the channels (for straight-6 and V6 engines) than it is for me to manufacture a dedicated 6-channel unit. The 4-channel CDI will, however, be a smaller unit.

Still to do: Wire in and secure the two inductors; machine up and install the aluminium heat-sink (to which all the MOSFET switches attach in order to dissipate their heat); and wind up and install the ferrite transformer. I was planning to wind up the transformer today, but am having a bit of a hard time of it at the moment, so I stayed at home :(

In conclusion, CDI almost finished :D
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Post Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:49 am

Geoff,

thanks for the chat the other day, really pleased with how the cdi is looking, cant wait for finished product!!

cheers,

Tim
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Post Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:20 am

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GeoffBob
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Post Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:25 am

Great pics of your car Tim. At least you get to drive yours. I barely get chance to work on mine these days, yet alone drive it. The amount of rain we have had up in Gauteng for this time of year is ridiculous. Just as I think the weather is drying up it clouds over again. Winter in Gauteng is generally characterised by zero precipitation with warm(ish) sunny days and cold nights. Hopefully this weather will have kicked in by May. For time being, summer remains.

'Finished the transformer, inductors, heat-sink and end-plates for your CDI yesterday. I must still have the end-plates powder coated black to match the box. The two green connectors poking out the one end-plate are the ones that connect to your pencil coils. 'Sixteen connections in total (eight per side), of which you use twelve (six per side) since you are operating six pencil-coils. The blue rectangular thingy's up against the end-plate are the capacitors that are charged to 450V. Whatever you do, don't get your fingers up against those two connectors while this unit is powered up, it'll bite like hell!

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'Have had the unit running on the workbench. Apologies for the quality of the pic, all I had to hand was my mobile. ”˜Quite happily throws a spark a good 3cm in length, but doesn’t half make a noise when it does! Not a good idea to force the BERU (aftermarket) pencil-coils to generate such a high voltage though (around 90kV) as it appears that the insulation within the pencil coil is insufficient to hold off such a high voltage. In other words, expecting one of these coils to generate 90kV without suffering internal damage is a little unrealistic. It’s not as if you’ll ever need 90kV though, but a 3cm spark is quite fun to see :D. Most importantly though, the unit doesn’t run out of puff when I wind up the RPM (In this case, the trigger signal to the unit, which would normally come from your ECU, was courtesy of a signal generator) I had the unit running quite happily at 10,000 rpm.

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Regards
Geoff
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Post Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:30 pm

Geoff,

Thanks, well my car is undriveable at the minute, but will be running soon!

Got some good news, A friend who had a nissan 2.0t engine in a e30 has given me his intercooler that he made to fit his e30, cores look a lot bigger and is fatter and longer than mine, will post pics up, maybe i can use it.

Geoff CDI looks awesome, and spark very impressive, your workmanship looks fantastic! I manged to get another oem coil to, so we all set!

Tim
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Post Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:48 pm

Thanks Tim, I do my best. It needs to both look professional and perform reliably in order to eventually become a saleable item. I'll be looking to you for feedback in that regard once you get around to installing and operating the unit.

I took the endplates in for powder coating this afternoon. Should have them back by Friday. I hope to commence writing up the installation and instruction manual over the coming long weekend.

That is indeed great news on the intercooler. have a look here at Theo325's car. Maybe you could fit your intercooler in a similar way to Theo's? Your airflow would of course be in the opposite direction. Most logical route would be for your Rotrex to blow down towards the sump, where the plumbing would come forward to the bottom of the intercooler. On the other side the plumbing would have to flow back and then up to the throttle. Hmm, possibly not the easiest, just an idea.

Also, don’t be scared to have the intercooler modified if you have to. It’s only aluminium and there are plenty of people around who could do an excellent job of welding it for you. ”˜Would be very interested to see a pic or two of the new cooler when you get a chance.
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Post Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:38 pm

tim_haynes wrote:Image
I recognise that! :D

CDI looks bloody awesome Geoff!
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Post Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:03 am

rix313 wrote:
tim_haynes wrote:Image
I recognise that! :D

CDI looks bloody awesome Geoff!
I know! thanks rix for your idea.

Geoff here is a picture of the intercooler i have been given, its not massive, but cores quite thick and its well built, its about 500-550mm long i think by almost 300mm.

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Post Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:07 am


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Post Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:09 pm

Geoff,

No i understand and im not offended, also thought the intercooler wasnt great, and the core is no thicker than mine looking at it.

I will fit a better one that suits my needs, and i like the look of theos, i could quite easily do mine the same. But for the time being im just gonna get the car running again on the new ignition and than i will test the pressure before and after the intercooler to see exactly how much pressure drop there is. Then i will go about doing the intercooler.

Still waiting for my bloody discs! but my new bells look very tasty with nice hub locators on them.
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Post Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:41 pm

tim_haynes wrote:... But for the time being im just gonna get the car running again on the new ignition and than i will test the pressure before and after the intercooler to see exactly how much pressure drop there is. Then i will go about doing the intercooler.
:thumb:
tim_haynes wrote:... new bells look very tasty with nice hub locators on them.
Don't be shy with the pics Tim, I'd be very interested to see what you have done. :D
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Post Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:21 am

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GeoffBob
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Post Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:26 pm

And very nice too Tim! Those should do you nicely. Bet you can't wait for the discs to arrive.

I got the end-plates back from the powder coater on Friday, and an excellent job he did indeed. So your CDI is now fully assembled and looking very smart if I do say so myself. I still need to run a few more tests and then I am done with it. Will dispatch it down to you post haste some time after Wednesday.

Regards
Geoff
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Post Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:05 pm

Wicked news geoff, I bet it looks good to! Looking forward to seeing it.

You can send it down with time freight, use my acc no. I will give it to you when you need it.

Cheers,
tim
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Post Mon May 03, 2010 1:15 pm

Your mate with the SR that was in the e30. He doesn't have a BMW V8 in that car now by any chance?
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Post Mon May 03, 2010 2:21 pm

with the sr? I think i know what you are on about, but yes he has got a 4.4i x5 v8 in, mustang manual gearbox. Sounds lush!
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