m50 turbo, new turbo & wastegate.

[baptie0]

anyone?

[james3320]

good evening,

i have been thinking that i now need an oil cooler due to the increased heat my engine has to cope with.
am i right in thinking that i can swap my filter housing for an s50 type with provision for this?
can the m50 filter housing be drilled/tapped to fit a cooler?

anyone?

i used the s50 one on my m50, bolts straight on

[rix313]

RE: Oil cooler:

IIRC (and correct me if not) the M50 filter housing is very similar if not the same as the M42 one? If so there are two options, there is a Mocal take off plate which replaces the current housing to allow for a remote head system (like the one i'm going to do on my S/C project) or (and I'd have to check compatablilty) I know some one who has designed and made up a new lid which screws ontop of the OE housing (I'll find out if you can continue to house the filter in the housing or whether it'll also require a remote head). Both options (take off options) are £100 odd each plus all the gubbins.

[baptie0]

thanks for the input fellas.

i am going to have a look around the breakers tomorrow and see whats available to pillage

[baptie0]

some progress on my car over the last few weeks


finally made the rest of the exhaust, i made it from a stainless steel lid for a milk tank!!!

it took me ages but well worth the effort as it cost me about £150 to make the whole system.

the hardest bit was shaping the steel round the ends caps and cutting the 3" holes in them, i used 2 holesaws just to do that.


the silencer is repackable & i used some acoustafill packing, the result is the car is much quieter than when i had that nasty thin scorpion back box.



the back end is now polybushed & i have a small case diff from a compact welded up until i can raise some cash for either a z3m or an m3 diff.

plans for the future include fitting some rear disks from my old touring & welding up the hole where the spare wheel used to be. then trying to get the old girl through an mot



if you are wondering wtf have i done to the wing, that was my first exhaust attempt, it was very noisey



bonnet is an acquired taste

[baptie0]

Had a bit of trouble today, when i switched on the ignition the fuel pump seemed to pulse longer than normal, tried to start the car and it was firing but not starting.

i thought there might be a problem with the fuel pressure regulator.

gauge read 5 bar as normal, still not starting,

next i start to smell something hot, put my hand on the ecu & its ROASTING

.

the ecu has been fitted for about 7 months now & its been working ok.

i think it may be knackered.

[Gunni]

You´ll have to open up the ecu if the ecu allows it (some are completely sealed)

And have a look if there is something obviously faulty with anything. Try and connect to the ecu and see if you can communicate with it. Also go over all the settings and check if any of them have not gone corrupted. Then try again and unhook the injectors and coil/s to see if this persists with the ecu. might be a faulty injector or a dodgy coil. Also if the injector driver is dead, it´s most likely stuck closed and feeding the injector continous electricity and thus heating up the ecu excessively

[baptie0]

thanks gunni, i will take it apart tomorrow and have a look.

[Rorty-corty]

Top project and one I would like to emulate in my E34. I am following with great interest.

[baptie0]

Time for an update I think.


Made a bit of a mistake with the coil driver settings on the mapping software, and almost cooked the ecu

luckily it survived...

the car is now going pretty good, i had some problems along the way with over advanced ignition timing but i managed to sort it pretty quickly without any damage.

also clutch slip.

since then the car has been getting some love in the form of removing the sunroof cassette and panel. and then had to wait for ages until i just got a bit of sheet steel and bonded & pop rivited to whats left of the roof and welding to the osr quarter & floorpans.

I will post some pics tomorow for anyone interested in the carnage.

[Rorty-corty]

Yes please. I must progress with mine too. I cheated and bought a stainless manifold from Ebay for mine. Looks pretty, will see how long it lasts. Only problem is although it'll fit my engine, it won't fit my car. (Fouls the steering box). I have a fe ideas though, including rotating the engine on it's mounts to give clearance.

[baptie0]

Yes please. I must progress with mine too. I cheated and bought a stainless manifold from Ebay for mine. Looks pretty, will see how long it lasts. Only problem is although it'll fit my engine, it won't fit my car. (Fouls the steering box). I have a fe ideas though, including rotating the engine on it's mounts to give clearance.

The e34 is a brilliant car, I think a turbo e34 would be even better
any pics of the manifold?

I also started with an ebay manifold but I chopped it up trying to fit it. decided on a second attempt using a pair of m52 ones.

[baptie0]

Had a problem today with the car.

I just finished fitting a m20 flywheel (thanks Bad Dave) ,uprated sachs clutch, 328i prop, and a 3.25 lsd (thanks Benjy).

took the car for a run... after a bit of warming up gave it some stick. the car was performing well until it lost power . I stopped but nothing looked out of place so took it home driving it slowly.

The chinese turbo has tried to eat itself.

I am worried that metal from the turbo has entered the inlet and damaged the engine.

anyone got a suitable turbo there selling?

[Gunni]

what turbo do you have now?
I might have something.

[baptie0]

Hi Gunni, the turbo is a garrett copy t3/t4 .50 inlet .63 exhaust, from china I think.

The bearing has collapsed sending the compressor wheel into the housing.

what did you have in mind?

[GeoffBob]

... the turbo is a garrett copy t3/t4 .50 inlet .63 exhaust, from china I think.

The bearing has collapsed sending the compressor wheel into the housing.

I think you might be referring to the T3/T04E.

T3 Turbine, stage-3 trim, A/R = 0.63
Inducer = 65 mm
Exducer = 56.6 mm

T04E Compressor, 57 trim, A/R = 0.5
Inducer = 56.6 mm
Exducer = 75 mm

Definitely made in China I'm afraid, although that's not to say that's why it died. Any chance it was deprived of oil?

Which M50 do you have Baptie0? I can’t help thinking that this turbine would be a bit on the small side for an M50B25. With such a low value A/R you would have choked the turbine at around 20 lbs/minute exhaust flow rate. Thus, without a big enough wastegate, or if the wastegate didn’t open properly, it’s possible that you spun the turbine too fast ”“ and that would definitely kill the bearing.

[baptie0]

Hi Geoffbob

the oil feed seems to be ok, my engine is an m50b25tu, with a 2mm decompression plate,
the waste gate is internal & boost was set to 1bar.

I recently purchased a 360 bearing that I was planning on fitting, also an external wastegate was next on the shopping list. too late...
I am going to save up for a hx35 holset & try again. or possibly try to have the original fixed with a new compressor wheel & new wastegate...

[GeoffBob]

Baptie,

You should be able to have it fixed without too much drama or costing too much. I am not sure how freely spares are available where you are, but spares can definitely be had for the Chinese turbos.

Can't help thinking that you might be better off with something else though. Maybe wait and see what Gunni can dig up for you? Would be nice if it were something that fits straight to your T3 exhaust flange.

Good luck with it anyway. As annoying as it seems this is all part of the learning experience.

Regards
Geoff

[baptie0]

cheers Geoff,

another larger exhaust side turbo would be good and as you said the engine would breath better..

unfortunately ive just spent all my spare cash on restoring my kawasaki kx500, so my e30 will have too wait unless I get a good second hand turbo from somewhere.

[Gunni]

I reccomended a HX35, even though its split pulse it´s cheap and effective.

[E30BeemerLad]

If you are feeling flush and want mental power, I know where there is a monster snail which will send you into orbit

It's a Greddy T78-33D, it had a rebuild 500 miles ago and is ready to scare you to death. The soarer it was on is doing well over 600bhp



£500 + delivery/postage costs and it is in Edinburgh

[baptie0]

Thats cool, but there is no way my engine/chassis could take 600hp without more £££ being thrown at it, hx35 in the pipeline....

[baptie0]

Got another turbo for my car...

its a Holset hx35 in really good condition, wastegate is permanently closed & I have a knock off 44mm external wastegate from ebay to control the boost.

[baptie0]

progress report....

started today by removing my exhaust manifold so the original 8mm holes could be tapped out to 12mm. Spent a good while trying to decide the best location for the waste gate, Then drilled a hole to accept the waste gate tube.
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I was planning on making the manifold split pulse, but it would require me to cut it all up so just left it alone for the time being.
[URL=http://img571.imageshack.us/i/p1010162y.jpg/]

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fitted waste gate & made the waste gate exhaust pipe, this will connect back into the downpipe somehow.


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the waste gate is 44mm and has a 15.9 psi spring in it. hope thats not too much?

[kerrie]

Keep the progress coming, My M50 Touring is waiting for the results!!
I Have James3320 cast manifold and a cheap T3/T4 XS Power turbo, and standalone Dictator management waiting, winter project once the V8 leaves the garage!
Best of luck and great going.

[GeoffBob]

Looking good Baptie, you have been busy

Since I really don't know anything about the HX35 (flow maps and all that) I really can't say anything about your choice of wastegate. Ideally though, the wastegate is sized to flow the difference between the maximum mass-flow-rate of the engine and the mass-flow-rate at which the turbine chokes. If the wastegate is too small to flow that difference then "boost-creep" occurs, simply because the wastegate is too small/tight to waste the full mass of air that must by-pass the turbine. This is the great disadvantage of some internal wastegates that, despite having a large enough turbine for more "beefier" applications, can't waste enough exhaust gas through the gate to prevent the turbine back-pressure climbing excessively.

With that said, I really don't think that you'll have this problem with your 44mm wastegate, and I am sure that Gunni will confirm this (since he knows the HX35 infinitely better than I do). The only problem you might face is that, the larger you make your wastegate, the more sensitive its operation becomes. In other words, cracking open a large enough wastegate just a teeny weeny bit can be enough to reduce the pressure across the turbine low enough that all boost (at the compressor) is lost, which thus closes the wastegate, boost builds again and then the wastegate cracks open again - and the cycle repeats over and over. In other words, the wastegate begins to "chatter", characterised by an oscillating/flickering boost gauge. But, likewise, I doubt your 44mm wastegate is big enough to cause this to happen.

Since I don't have the flow maps for an HX35 I can't give you a definitive answer on either problem, but of the two the only one you might need to keep an eye out for is the latter.

BTW, what is your compression ratio and what intercooler are you using? These will ultimately determine how much boost you can run. If you are worried about detonation then choose a much softer wastegate spring intended to open at much lower pressure than the boost you intend to run. Then fit an electronic boost controller (many advertised on the net) that sends a PWM (pulse width modulated) control signal (same way your injectors work) to a little electrically operated solenoid valve that connects to the wastegate. You can then ”adial-up”a whatever boost you want as the mood takes you (provided you don’t exceed the limits of your engine and blow it apart )

I'll be keeping an eye out for updates.

Best of Luck
Geoff

[baptie0]

Thanks for the input fellas,

As for the compression ratio am planning on getting some ARP head studs when funds allow, so when the head comes off I can measure the combustion chamber size. the decompression plate is 2mm thick alloy which goes between the cylinder head & the head gasket, every thing else is standard. the intercooler is 46cm x 34cm x 6.5cm, with 2.5" pipe work.

More updates in a few weeks hopefully

[Gunni]

The 44mm will do you great and should give very good boost control , especially if you feed both top and bottom chambers and then run a bleed valve on the top one.

[baptie0]

The 44mm will do you great and should give very good boost control , especially if you feed both top and bottom chambers and then run a bleed valve on the top one.

Great, I am thinking that I need new fuel injectors for this turbo, roughly what horsepower do you think it will make at 16psi boost?

[Gunni]

You should be able to make anything between 360 and 450hp all depending on the exhaust manifold, intake temps and exhaust turbine + compressor.

But as a educated guess a M50 should find about 400-405hp.

[baptie0]

The 44mm will do you great and should give very good boost control , especially if you feed both top and bottom chambers and then run a bleed valve on the top one.

when feeding both wastegate ports with the same pressure and running a bleed valve, what are the benefits of this? better control of boost? or more boost?

[GeoffBob]

...what are the benefits of this? better control of boost? or more boost?

Markedly more accurate boost control. If you wish, the pressure regulator (technically not the same as a bleed valve!) can be mounted in the cockpit under the control of the driver. This system was first used, according to Graham Bell's book Forced induction Performance Tuning, by Porsche on their 917 race car. This system was superseded by electronic boost control, pioneered by SAAB in 1981.

Both systems effectively amount to dial-a-boost and work extremely well. The Porsche system is the simpler of the two and (I expect) more reliable since it is mechanical in nature. Be aware, however, that the cost of a small good quality pressure regulator may well exceed the cost of modern electronic boost control system, so I would recommend that you check this before deciding which boost control system you want to use.

Take particular note that a simple bleed valve will NOT regulate the pressure to the upper wastegate chamber in the way a pressure regulator does, and thus will result in dangerous boost creep. So be sure to use a pressure regulator and not a simple tap or restrictor valve

You will also need to choose the stiffness of your wastegate spring in order to define the minimum amount of boost that you might want to run. No matter how you adjust the regulator down you will not be able to set your boost pressure any lower than that defined by the boost pressure required to overcome the force of the spring. However, by adjusting the pressure regulator upwards you will increase the pressure in the upper wastegate chamber and hence raise your boost pressure. You thus require a wastegate with a soft spring for this system to work. In actual fact, in this specific case, it is the stiffness of the spring that defines just how quickly the wastegate transitions from the closed to open position, but it is the pressure regulator that defines the exact boost pressure at which the wastegate first begins to open.

Baptie, if you want me to I can scan in some info on boost (wastegate) control when I am back at work on Monday.

Geoff

[Gunni]

[baptie0]

Started to make a new 3" downpipe yesterday.



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[baptie0]

Finished the downpipe today, and fitted some 440cc fuel injectors.
reset fuel pressure to 3.5 bar, then me and my mate took the car out for some on the road mapping. we had to take some fuel out of the map due to the larger injectors, the boost gauge read 0.7 bar which I think is a bit low? for a 16psi spring however this can be increased by tightening the adjuster on the wastegate body. the turbo seems to be ok, however there is a bit of play in the shaft side to side, is this normal? also developed a misfire on the way home, which is worrying. checked the compression and all is well.