ring trip soon, gaz golds? diff ratios? Bolt in cages prices

[driftmonkey]

I have a 89' 325i, currently on koni adjustables, lowering springs and the standard diff(not sure of ratio)
Got pretty much all the bits to do a diy coilover conversion, but would be running on the koni inserts... bad Idea I'm guessing, should I just stop fannying about and get a set of gaz golds?
Ive been to afew track days,ring last year and plan on afew more trackdays this year, about another 4, have a ring trip in may and one in sept.

Now I have a 3.64 lsd i was going to fit but feel with the standard engine this might be far too long, with the current diff it felt sluggish on the uphill bits, I'm doing a turbo conversion very shortly so the 3.64 should be good for that, but untill then...
The car is a 4 door so dont want a weld in cage, just want a bolt in that if i get a 2 door can weld it into that and get bits added to it. What good prices are out there at the mo.

suggestions please

[Screacher]

suggestions please

One thing at a time?

[ross_jsy]

Would say go for gaz golds, tried and tested.

As for cage, how about the safety devices 18 pointer? Just putting mine in now and seems a very decent cage with rear triangulation and the option for front too.

How about going for 24v rightness, give you some longer legs up top

And why can't he ask more than one question?

[MillRat]

Check out some of the existing threads on cages;

http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=163641

and

http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=162062

Both of these, particularly the second one, should give you a good heads up on what is out there and prices.

Having never driven the Nordshlife on anything other than a computer game, it is hard for me to comment on setups, etc, however wouldn't a longer ratio diff be a blessing? I use to hit mid 5th gear at my local racetrack with my then M20B23 and a 4.10:1 LSD (approx 150km/h) and the longest straight isn't that long. At "the ring" you would be riding the limiter at many parts of the track I would imagine. Maybe someone with "experience" at the track could comment.

I am personally a big fan of pre-made coilovers that are straight plug and play for 2 reasons;

1) I do not understand the complexities of suspension enough to confidently mix and match components like some guys can (to great effect I might add), and
2) I like the idea of buying a kit customised to my car, with matching spring and damper rates (I.e. all the hard work has been done for me).

Obviously my preferred option is much more expensive, however what it has cost me in dollars, it has signficantly saved me in hours.

P.s. Nothing invokes balls out driving like sitting in a solid , well built cage.

[UweM3]

in regards to the Nordschleife

-- the diff is the last thing I would worry for now. As more laps you get under you belt as more speed you will carry with you and a short diff is suddenly too short.
What ratio is the 5th gear on your car?

-- DIY coilovers are fine for the Ring IF you get the right bits together. You can use your current Konis, why not. But I predict you bottom them out if you run a standard height top mount with springs less than 500lbs. I recommend a flat top mount to gain some suspension travel.

-- do you have any spring rates in mind? What will the car be, just a track day toy or road driving as well?

-- GAZ coil overs. Do like them BUT they are supplied without helper springs and personally wouldn't drive the Ring with a suspension which has more droop than unloaded spring length.

-- can't help with the cage bit but there is enough information here to get something sorted out for you. How much do you want to spend?

@MillRat, driving the Ring on Playstation doesn't give you the full picture. The very long "straight" halfway through is uphill all the way and most standard cars struggle to pull 5th gear (anything less 300bhp I mean) with the standard diff ratio.

[N00b]

As above really, if your diff is too short you'll spend far too long redlining in top.

[handpaper]

DM, I run Koni adjustables on my front coilovers (with Gaz coilover rears). With 650lb front springs, 2 1/2 turns (out of 3 1/2) is about the right amount of damping. A few passengers remarked how stable and planted it felt on the 'Ring in 2008; some of this may have been down to it being a full-fat 4-door

Uwe, GT4 isn't that bad a 'Ring simulator - I met a chap in '07, over on one of Darren's trips. He remarked that his car managed exactly the same speed up Kesselchen in real life as it had in the game.

Ford Ka, 1.3. 60 mph

[UweM3]

He remarked that his car managed exactly the same speed up Kesselchen in real life as it had in the game.

Ford Ka, 1.3. 60 mph

LooooooL!

[driftmonkey]

Those links arent for bolt in cages, I dont want to invest in a welded in cage due to the fact if the car eventually rots away or I find a nice 2 door shell car later on I can swap cage over, or even if i want to sell the cage i wouldnt be able to as I would be stuck in one car.

Screacher, Ive already driven the ring as the car is and it doesnt perform well enough for me, and i'm only asking about three items, cage for safety, suspension for handling, and diff ratios as last time was getting annoyed with the car on the uphill sections and wanted to know how much difference the 3.64 would make.

Handpaper, what spring length was that? with a helper aswell? your rear coilovers, how much? The konis on the rear need replacing on my car as broke the adjuster.

uwe, flat topmounts? as in go on the top of the strut turret other than under like the standard?

I'm hoping for about sub £800,

Car will be driven to trackdays not trailered, but not a daily car.

I'm not worried about power this trip, its about the corners and my driving skill improving, last trackday my car was understeering loads!

[UweM3]

Those links arent for bolt in cages, I dont want to invest in a welded in cage due to the fact if the car eventually rots away or I find a nice 2 door shell car later on I can swap cage over, or even if i want to sell the cage i wouldnt be able to as I would be stuck in one car.

Screacher, Ive already driven the ring as the car is and it doesnt perform well enough for me, and i'm only asking about three items, cage for safety, suspension for handling, and diff ratios as last time was getting annoyed with the car on the uphill sections and wanted to know how much difference the 3.64 would make.

Handpaper, what spring length was that? with a helper aswell? your rear coilovers, how much? The konis on the rear need replacing on my car as broke the adjuster.

uwe, flat topmounts? as in go on the top of the strut turret other than under like the standard?

I'm hoping for about sub £800,

Car will be driven to trackdays not trailered, but not a daily car.

I'm not worried about power this trip, its about the corners and my driving skill improving, last trackday my car was understeering loads!

Is SUB £800 your budget for ALL 3 modifications?
This is going to be a tough one.

A weld in cage can be modified with plates to convert it to bolt in but it will be of course much more easy if you start with the right cage in the first place.

flat top mounts will still sit where the OEM mounts are, they are just shallower which will lower the car without winding the spring platform down too much --> more shock travel left.

can you please answer, what is your 5th gear ratio? 1:1?
or what diff do you have fitted now?

I personally prefer a 3.73 diff but my car has a different engine and revs higher than yours. I managed 7.5k+ over Schwedenkreuz and pulled 5th gear reasonably along Kesselchen.
I found the 3.64 a tad too long in several places and the 3.73 just allowed to shift earlier and keep the car in the higher gear longer before braking for a bend.
Of course there are place where the 3.73 doesn't work either but on the whole I found them to be less

if you are on such a tight budget, DIY is the only way to achive your goals
Here a picture of the two top mounts, note the height difference with SAME suspension stroke


These are the springs I use, left rear, right front


depending on what rims/tyre you use, the lower spring platform can get in the way on the coilover strut if the main spring is too long. In the picture above the coil over strut is NOT adjusted to the correct ride height.

here a picture of a previous attempt of DIY coilovers. This is a 400lbs spring and the pictures is taken with the cars static weight only sitting on the front strut. Not how little travel is left before the spring goes coil bound. But before this happened I ran out of suspension travel and the top hat hit the shocks retaining nut. You will need to run fairly long (or hard) bumpstops to avoid this.

PS the car wasn't lowered excessively in these pictures!

[moggy]

Demon Tweeks sell a 2 door bolt in OMP cage for around £500.

If you are prepared to come up to the North West then you might get a good deal on fitting off the guy who fitted ours, given he has had the practice.

[driftmonkey]

Know idea what thefinal drive is on the car, how do I find out? Its a facelift 325i se, not a sport, I'll have a crawl under the car tomorrow to see what diff is on there at the mo, as far as i know its the one that came with the car from factory.

Budget wise, I was looking at spending £1500ish before the ring.

[moggy]

in regards to the Nordschleife

-- the diff is the last thing I would worry for now.

[E30ToRing]

I have a 325i Touring that has been modified for Nurburgring use. I had a bolt-in cage fabricated here:

http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=126570

I have a 3.91 lsd, poly bushes a shortshift and 'fast road' springs/shocks (unknown make). I aim to upgrade to Gaz soon but am using the current set-up to learn the 'ring. I have run on bottletops with Toyo T1Rs (195/60/14). In this guise the car peaks at 125mph (per satnav) at 6400rpm entering Schwedenkreuz and, as with Uwe's, pulls 5th along Kesselchen. It does need to drop to 4th for Angst curve though. The motor is standard and of course the run up the hill is dependent on exit speed from Bergwerk.

I have now switched to BBS 15s and Hankook Z212 (195/50/15) but have yet to run on them.

I agree with Uwe that the playstation game gives only a partial picture; there is no substitute for lapping. Most of my budget goes on laps (I've lost count) and consumables (principally fuel!).

[handpaper]

Handpaper, what spring length was that? with a helper aswell? your rear coilovers, how much? The konis on the rear need replacing on my car as broke the adjuster.

My coilover build thread is HERE, should have all you need

[MillRat]

These are the springs I use, left rear, right front

Oooo KW rear coilovers. Do you have a picture with them installed?

I run KW V2's in my E30, but would love to convert to harder front and rears, with a rear coilover (adjusting the current rear damper rates is a right pain, and very difficult to quickly do at the track). When I finally make the change, I will stick with KW.

[UweM3]

These are the springs I use, left rear, right front

Oooo KW rear coilovers. Do you have a picture with them installed?

I run KW V2's in my E30, but would love to convert to harder front and rears, with a rear coilover (adjusting the current rear damper rates is a right pain, and very difficult to quickly do at the track). When I finally make the change, I will stick with KW.

sorry to disappoint you, I am running these in the stock location.
There are no KW coil overs for E30.
I only use the KW springs because they are would with less coils, allowing more travel before getting coil bound

[MillRat]

sorry to disappoint you, I am running these in the stock location.
There are no KW coil overs for E30.
I only use the KW springs because they are would with less coils, allowing more travel before getting coil bound

I know there are no rear coilovers for E30, that's why I got excited at your picture (I thought you may have modifyed another coilover to suit). My rear spring looks nothing like yours though;

[UweM3]

sorry to disappoint you, I am running these in the stock location.
There are no KW coil overs for E30.
I only use the KW springs because they are would with less coils, allowing more travel before getting coil bound

I know there are no rear coilovers for E30, that's why I got excited at your picture (I thought you may have modifyed another coilover to suit). My rear spring looks nothing like yours though;

I have one of these ballon type springs as well from KW but couldn't manage to get the spring rate I wanted and went for cylindrical. BTW your adjuster is on the wrong side, supposed to be on the chassis, not the arm. Check pictures in KW's TUV report. Page No9
http://docs.kwsuspension.de/eah68620914.pdf

[ross_jsy]

you can get rear coil overs for an e30 btw.

need to reinforce the top mount though

[UweM3]

you can get rear coil overs for an e30 btw.

from KW?

[ross_jsy]

ah no, but the way i read it was MillRat thought there were no coilovers for the rear at all:

"I know there are no rear coilovers for E30, that's why I got excited at your picture"

[Berkut]

you can get rear coil overs for an e30 btw.

from KW?

You have the option of rear coilovers in the KW competition coilovers, both V2 and V3.

[UweM3]

you can get rear coil overs for an e30 btw.

from KW?

You have the option of rear coilovers in the KW competition coilovers, both V2 and V3.

V3 maybe but not V2. Prove me wrong with a picture
I am sure KW will make you some if you request them to do so, but have you seen how much a bespoke KW race setup is? North of 6-7k!

[RPM]

-- GAZ coil overs. Do like them BUT they are supplied without helper springs and personally wouldn't drive the Ring with a suspension which has more droop than unloaded spring length.

Supplied with Eibach helper and/or tender springs if you ask

[UweM3]

-- GAZ coil overs. Do like them BUT they are supplied without helper springs and personally wouldn't drive the Ring with a suspension which has more droop than unloaded spring length.

Supplied with Eibach helper and/or tender springs if you ask

But why ask in the first place. Shouldn't they not be standard?
Or at least offered straight away?
Don't get me wrong, I am not knocking GAZ. Was thinking of buying them myself. It's a good product IMHO, so why not make it a very good one?
I know people are on a budget. But one may regret the ££'s saved (without helper springs) when flying over a crest with the suspension on full droop and one of the springs isn't locating properly in the seat on "landing".

[SteMarsden]

Jimmy,
I sent you a PM about this last week, not sure whether you have missed it with the excitement of Brands Hatch....

[oldroydsr4]

Uwe - What spring rates and lengths are your front and rear springs (including helpers) and do KW sell them separately?

[handpaper]

There could be a couple of reasons why helper/tender springs are not supplied as standard or automatically offered.

Cynically, I'd say it's so Mark and Dave can concentrate on making and selling kit, rather than spending all day explaining how suspension works

Price is also a big factor - helper springs are around the same price as main springs; tender springs are significantly more. Including them as standard may make Gaz kit look uncompetitive on price (it would add £70-140 to the cost of a full kit).

Lastly, we don't all have to contend with the kerbs at Wippermann or the crest at Flugplatz - many of the cars Gaz suspension is fitted to are destined for smooth, flat (boring) circuits where an appropriate main spring is perfectly adequate.

[UweM3]

Uwe - What spring rates and lengths are your front and rear springs (including helpers) and do KW sell them separately?

Front 140N - 140 long
Rear 180N - 100 long
Helpers (all) 10N - 80 long

KW sells these springs separately, but be prepared ££££'s!

http://shop.kwsuspension.de/kwshop/inde ... t_filter=1

[Brian28]

Lastly, we don't all have to contend with the kerbs at Wippermann or the crest at Flugplatz - many of the cars Gaz suspension is fitted to are destined for smooth, flat (boring) circuits where an appropriate main spring is perfectly adequate.

Agreed some tracks are a lot better than others, but if you are bored you're not trying hard enough

[UweM3]

handpaper I agree will all the above but what if Mr.Newbie buys a kit without helper springs and one day decides to go over and give it a go at Flugplatz?
Does the kit come with a manual telling people to make sure to seat the springs properly after jacking the car up to change wheels? Not everybody who likes (and can!) drive fast is a mechanic or engineer.
In my opinion it's not the right approach, sorry.