My E30/R5Turbo track car - Gearbox MkIII

[UweM3]

Good luck luck with the project. I am sure it will be great when it all comes together.And don't forget the video camera!

PS what is GTR2? a software package?

[GeoffBob]

Good luck luck with the project. I am sure it will be great when it all comes together.And don't forget the video camera!

Will do Uwe, many thanks!

[GeoffBob]

what is GTR2? a software package?

GTR2 = Gran Tourismo 2. It's a PC "game" that has at its core probably one of the most realistic simulation tools on the market, short of using one of the professional products used by the F1 or Rally R&D groups.

Within the game itself you can change an assortment of settings on your selected car (tyre compound, tyre pressures, spring rates, dampers, camber etc). However, by hacking into the setup files (provided you know what to hack) it is possible to define your own car from head to toe. This is what I did.

Not sure if you are into computer games Uwe, but you should try it sometime. It's no substitute for the real thing, but it's a great way to learn the lines of a track that you are planning to visit ahead of time (provided of course that the simulated track is reasonably accurate). It's also a lot of fun for the family on a cold and rainy Sunday afternoon. Requires a USB connected steering wheel and pedals to operate.

Just for fun, here's "me" on the "Nurburgring". Probably the closest I'll ever get





Do I get a sticker for this?

[UweM3]

Do I get a sticker for this?

you won't I am afraid Not my rule, but unwritten law.
Only if you have driven it, the sticker is yours.

A computer game? You're not kidding me, aren't you?
I do not play PC games at all. Had a try at a friends and used the Nuerburgring because I know it in real and found it to be nowhere near the real thing.
Gravity is what's missing. You may well learn the lines but they are often quite different in reality IMHO.
Oh and one more thing is missing, an important one especially for the Ring. Fear....

I am intrigued to see the results when your car is hitting the road. Keep us posted.

[GeoffBob]

Do I get a sticker for this?

you won't I am afraid Not my rule, but unwritten law.
Only if you have driven it, the sticker is yours.

A computer game? You're not kidding me, aren't you?
I do not play PC games at all. Had a try at a friends and used the Nuerburgring because I know it in real and found it to be nowhere near the real thing.
Gravity is what's missing. You may well learn the lines but they are often quite different in reality IMHO.
Oh and one more thing is missing, an important one especially for the Ring. Fear....

I am intrigued to see the results when your car is hitting the road. Keep us posted.

I was only joking about the sticker Uwe I wouldn't really expect one for a playing a game.

GTR2 has value in the sense that that it has at its core a very accurate mathematical model that has been constructed in adherece to the laws of physics. Thus, it can be used to accurately predict the response of a car to changes in its setup - from its mass distribution right down to the engine tuning, tyre compound, aerodynamics, and suspension geometry. I therefore find it to be a very useful tool. Maybe I will be able to convince you of its value as a simulation tool by showing you simulated telemetry data compared to actual recorded data.

However, as a driver training aid it has almost no value at all and is not the reason why I use it. While it can simulate the behaviour of the car on the track it absolutely cannot simulate the experience of driving a car.

[Stevin]

Ahh, but at Kyalami we can hit 200km/h down the mine shaft in a gutted e46 M3, stock motor race car.

I'm sure your kick ass R5 should be capable of more than that.

Do you have any plans to race it in any series? Come join us at Super Saloons. It's going to be great racing again after 3yr's out from totalling the last race car

[GeoffBob]

Ahh, but at Kyalami we can hit 200km/h down the mine shaft in a gutted e46 M3, stock motor race car.

I'm sure your kick ass R5 should be capable of more than that.

Do you have any plans to race it in any series? Come join us at Super Saloons. It's going to be great racing again after 3yr's out from totalling the last race car

Hi Stevin - finally, someone local to me!

The original plan was to compete in local Silvercup racing. After all the time and money I've put into her, now I'm not so sure . Once she's completed, therefore, I plan to start off lightly with track days and then see where that takes me depending upon how well she performs.

As she is geared above she'll be good for 220km/h down the mineshaft - no problem. Whether I have bottle for that is another question altogether

[GeoffBob]

This made me laugh. Not quite an E30 at not quite the Nurburgring.

[youtube][/youtube]

[Stevin]

Come on, race that bad boy. It's what its' built for!

On a more serious note. I love the attention to detail on this build.

Hopefully I will see you at the track sometime this year. Just lookout for the widebody e30 blowing past you

[GeoffBob]

On a more serious note. I love the attention to detail on this build.

Hopefully I will see you at the track sometime this year. Just lookout for the widebody e30 blowing past you

Thanks Stevin, I'll keep an eye out for you.
Regards
Geoff

[UweM3]

This made me laugh. Not quite an E30 at not quite the Nurburgring.

[youtube][/youtube]

I think it's feekin' cool !
Have seen another one with a complete E30 dash, seat, steering wheels, gear shifter and pedal! Just can't find the link.
with a 40" TV in front!!!!

[GeoffBob]

Well, they say that necessity is the mother of invention (and a few other things I believe). This is certainly true in my case. I am slowly stripping down the gear train of my spare W55 box as I progressively draw up the detailed engineering drawings for my new gears. Imagine my horror when I found that the bearing on the end of the output shaft is located too close to the 5th gear cluster to use a conventional bearing puller tool. A whole 4mm between the bearing and the 5th counter-gear! And so I designed and manufactured up this from 3mm stainless steel plate, cut on the water-jet machine here at work, and bent in a bending-break.



Nifty! Combining the stainless bits with the "torso" and "arms" from a cheap two legged gear puller provided me with just what I needed to remove the bearing.

[gareth]

neat!
i've made a split tool to allow me to pull the inner bearing races from diff pinions but i have the use of a loadcell calibration rig to press them on and off. it's essentially a precision 150 tonne press. they do like to stick on there after 20+ years but that rig soon shifts them

[GeoffBob]

neat!

Ta

i've made a split tool to allow me to pull the inner bearing races from diff pinions but i have the use of a loadcell calibration rig to press them on and off. it's essentially a precision 150 tonne press. they do like to stick on there after 20+ years but that rig soon shifts them

Against a 150 tonne press do they have any choice? 'Could probably cube the whole pinion with that monster if you wanted to . Machines like that are so useful, wish I had one instead of my rinky-dink 16 tonne press.

Took me a while, but I eventually got around to making up my next tool, designed to shift the 5th counter-gear and bearing from the end of the output shaft. As before, the two plates were cut on on the water-jet machine, this time from 10mm WA300 mild-steel.



Winding the bolts out along the shaft simply forces the gear and bearing (which are removed as a pair) along shaft. A little heat on the gear from a LPG burner helped it on its way when the bolts were first tightened up. After that, 'worked a charm.



Next in line is the rather more inaccessible reverse gear.

[GeoffBob]

Next in line is the rather more inaccessible reverse gear.

... for which I will be using this nifty five-legged tool.



As with the last tool, was cut out of 10mm mild-steel plate on the water-jet machine. I'll find out this evening whether the teeth on the end of the legs are strong enough to hold onto the gear. The teeth are only 5mm thick due to the fact that there is only 5.5mm between the back of the gear and the face of the sandwich plate! Only required to work once.

[MarkT]

Lol I learned the ring on GT4 for the playstation. TBH it really isn't far off the real thing

[gareth]

Against a 150 tonne press do they have any choice?

no! my rig doesn't say please or thank you, it doesn't have to!

'Could probably cube the whole pinion with that monster if you wanted to

yep the damage potential is huge, it will very slowly and pricisely obliterate about anything you can think of!


you have access to a water jet cutter? not fair!
you have a nice tool collection coming together there, and all are in a way a substitute for a big hammer.

[GeoffBob]

you have access to a water jet cutter? not fair!

Yes, I am very lucky to have access to one. Stands idle a lot of the time and the operator is more than happy to cut out little bits and pieces for me. I simply draw up the CAD file, supply him with the DXF file, and hey presto!

you have a nice tool collection coming together there, and all are in a way a substitute for a big hammer.

Quite so, although you'd have a hard time swinging a hammer at that reverse gear since its fairly inaccesible. I'd never use a hammer on this sort of job - just not my style . I once saw someone hammer a bearing out, and then hammer it back in so as to re-use it I won't even re-use a bearing that has been pressed out!

Well, I am pleased to report that the 5-legged reverse gear puller worked a treat. The gear didn't stand a chance as it turned out, the tool was a lot stronger than I expected.



With all the necessary gears and bearings removed from the input and intermediate shaft (aft of the sandwich plate) I was able to widthdraw the shafts from the plate.



All that remains is to disassemble the 1st, 2nd & 3rd gears from the output shaft. 4th gear is attached to the input (spigot) shaft, which fell away the instant the input shaft was withdrawn from the plate.

Of all the bits shown in the above picture, only the output shaft (top right) will be reused. All the gears, including the intermediate shaft (bottom) and the input shaft (top left) will be remanufactured to suit. The new gear-box will use straight gut (spur) gears with dog teeth (similar to bike boxes) in place of the synchro's. The advantage of the spur gears is the removal of axial forces from the shafts (which tend to push the box apart and crack it under high torque) as well as the greatly improved efficiency of spur gears (and hence improved transmission of engine torque to the wheels). The advantage of the dog gears is the ability to shift without using the clutch (since there are no synchro-rings to bugger up). This, of course, requires that the driver exhibit careful control over the engine RPM. The disadvantage of all of this is the extreme noise!

[GeoffBob]

This is the sort of noise I am expecting from my gearbox:

[youtube][/youtube]

This clip shows Mike Maloney's rotary engined Ford Escort fitted with a Saenz TT3 sequential transmission with pneumatically operated paddle shifters. Saenz (of Ireland, see here) manufacture the awesome TT3 sequential 6-speed box specifically for racing.

[MarkT]

Got to love the sound of a straight cut trans. Had a quaife box on my old nova rally car. Best thing about it was the gearing 70mph in 1st

Loving your bearing puller

[GeoffBob]

Got to love the sound of a straight cut trans. Had a quaife box on my old nova rally car. Best thing about it was the gearing 70mph in 1st

You lucky sod, you had a Quaife box! I am green with envy. Which one did you have Mark? I would love a Quaife 60G sequential 6-speed box, but the £6400 price tag is bit out of my range.

I've set my first gear at just on 2:1, which will be good for 60mph in 1st gear with 41:10 final drive and 245/40/17 tyres. I'd love to raise her top speed in 1st gear higher, but I am loathe to do so as she has a turbocharged engine with minimal torque at low rpm.

[gareth]

6 speed straight cut paddle shift sequential box in a mk2 escort.... now that's cool!

[MarkT]

Got to love the sound of a straight cut trans. Had a quaife box on my old nova rally car. Best thing about it was the gearing 70mph in 1st

You lucky sod, you had a Quaife box! I am green with envy. Which one did you have Mark? I would love a Quaife 60G sequential 6-speed box, but the £6400 price tag is bit out of my range.

I've set my first gear at just on 2:1, which will be good for 60mph in 1st gear with 41:10 final drive and 245/40/17 tyres. I'd love to raise her top speed in 1st gear higher, but I am loathe to do so as she has a turbocharged engine with minimal torque at low rpm.

Nothing fancy mate, just a straight cut gear kit in GM box with a Quaife LSD. Normal H pattern. Only about £2500 all in. Did the job though. Uber long first and second 85-90 in second then topped out at 130

[GeoffBob]

Nothing fancy mate, just a straight cut gear kit in GM box with a Quaife LSD. Normal H pattern. Only about £2500 all in. Did the job though.

That's pretty much what I'll finish up with in my Toyota box, also with a Quaife ATB diff at the rear.

All it took was a few minutes with a hydraulic press, and the output shaft is now bare.



'Next task is to measure up both the output and intermediate shafts so that I can begin the design of my new gears.

[MarkT]

Not read it all... Your making your own straight cut gear kit? That's going to be a nightmare with the ammount of facets that are on those teeth. Are you going to aneal the gears?

[GeoffBob]

Not read it all... Your making your own straight cut gear kit? That's going to be a nightmare with the ammount of facets that are on those teeth. Are you going to aneal the gears?

Actually I am building my own gearbox. The only bits I will be re-using from the W55 donor box are the alloy casing, the sandwich plate, the output shaft and the selector forks.

Not quite the nightmare it sounds though Mark. I've done my homework and visited a local gearcutter to assess his capabilities (see a page or two back for pics in this regard). Designing the gears is not an issue for me, it's part of what I do for a living anyway, and we have all the facilities for hardening and surface treatment locally (I'd be stupid not to have the gears treated - otherwise might as well make them out of plastic ).

My design does not include synchro-rings so there is no need replicate the engagement teeth on the lower/inner face of each gear. This simplifies the design greatly, as well as making for a much stronger gear box (no synchro-rings to abuse). Instead I will be using dog-teeth that engage the side of the selector into the side of the gear. Simple to manufacture, very strong, but they require a bit of skill to shift. Anyone recall that scene at the beginning of Pretty Woman where Richard Gere gets Julia Roberts to drive the Lamborghini for him because he can't change the gears? Those are unsynchronised dog gears.

Shown below are the dog-gears that Sainz Transmissions use. The middle bit is the selector ring. Imagine the selector ring sliding left or right to engage the gear next to it. The gear on the right is one of a pair that define the ratio for the selected gear. When the selector engages the gear (via the dog teeth) it effectively locks the output shaft to the intermediate shaft. My design is similar to the Sainz design, except that the dog teeth on the side of my selector recess into slots in the side of the gear (as opposed to against mating teeth).

[e21Jason]

I spent yesterday at M-Sport getting a factory tour where they build the ford WRC cars, the transmission shop was pretty interesting looking at the Ricardo WRC transmission, the clutch is held on with one bolt, to access it on the car you only have to take the front wheel off and the service crew can change it in a minute.

The really amazing thing was the total focus on quality, they life the parts and from the start of the season they will know which part is on which shell for each stage. The dedication to quality for some reason reminded me of Geoff’s build

Jason

[GeoffBob]

I spent yesterday at M-Sport getting a factory tour where they build the ford WRC cars, the transmission shop was pretty interesting looking at the Ricardo WRC transmission, the clutch is held on with one bolt, to access it on the car you only have to take the front wheel off and the service crew can change it in a minute.
Jason

Wow, I wish I had been there. I'd just love to see how a WRC car is prepared, or even better - work for a company that does that sort of thing.

Who do you work for that you get to visit M-Sport Jason? Whatever your reply, I suspect that I will be jealous as you have already mentioned somewhere that you do work for the F1 community?

The really amazing thing was the total focus on quality, they life the parts and from the start of the season they will know which part is on which shell for each stage. The dedication to quality for some reason reminded me of Geoff’s build

You flatter me Sir! But I suspect their quality control well exceeds my own - have you not seen the paint stains on my workbench in my photos? But seriously, Ta very much.

[gareth]

not trying to rub it in or anything but... in my work i've visited and toured the Jordan, Williams, and Honda F1 factories. Had a meeting with Jordan on-track at Silverstone and met Fisichella (very friendly chap) as well as touring the Ferrari pits at the Silverstone GP on the practice day meeting Ross Brawn while i was there.

We supply pretty much every F1 team with cornerweight setup loadcells and R&D / testing loadcells so i speak to F1 lads most days.

We do have a lot of far less interesting customers though, and a load of customers i can't tell you about

[e21Jason]

I got to go on one of the sponsor's VIP tours as a blag, in my work as a consultant engineer and as far as motorsport goes I have done some work on dyno cells, so they can alter temp, humidity, and atmo pressure etc. The one at msport is very trick they send the recce car out data log it send it back, run the engine/box on they dyno to simulate the stage making all of environmental corrections and generate a map per stage of an event.

With the restictor on the turbo they get 350bhp and 600Nm from the 2.0l, but they can build derestricted engines for private customers, one ex wrc was in getting rebuilt for hill climbing.

As for quality it's more of the work ethos to getting the job done i was thinking about.

Jason

[GeoffBob]

Goodness, you two lead exciting lives. Interesting stuff indeed!

[chips]

Wow, I've only just spotted this thread. This car is awesome. Simply stunning work.

[320ise]

great thread and an awesome car there is some very clever people in this thread! wish i 100% understud it all but most of it goes over my head! very interesting non the less! enjoyed the read and will look forward to reading future posts!

keep up the good work fella!

[GeoffBob]

Thanks Gents for the generous comments. 'Am pleased to hear my little thread is of interest.

Well, in the the process of measuring up all the gears, shafts and bearings, I progressively compiled an engineering drawing of the gear-train. Using this drawing I was then able to design (in detail) the new gears as well as (most importantly) design the selector-rings and dog-rings etc (the mechanism by which the driven gears around the output shaft are engaged to the shaft). Having the "plan view" of the entire gear-train was an exceptionally important part of this process as I need to know the spacing between and around the gears and bearings to be able to design the selector and dog-rings. Each of the driven gears (1st & 2nd) shown below (on the right) have a dog-ring with dog teeth (in the middle) press-fit onto them. The selector ring (top left) engages the hub (which is splined to the shaft, bottom left). As I have said before, there are no synchro-rings in this type of gearbox (a crash-box, similar to the gearbox in the WWII Willis Jeep).

[keri-WMS]

Very cool stuff, I continue to be impressed! Reverse-engineering stuff drives me up the wall - you have a shaft that's 9.93mm for instance: Is it worn or undersize 10.0mm? Or maybe it should be 9.90mm +/- 0.05? Or is it designed to expand to 10.00mm once at operating temperature?

As for the radiused / "odd shaped" bits like castings.... oh for a 3D laser scanner!