Front brake ideas

[Aberdean]

Just a quick question regarding E30 braking set ups at the front...What is the maxmium caliper that can be used under a 15'' wheel? And further to that has anyone ever run the setup of two calipers on either side of the wheel to combat this (i.e Two calipers for one wheel)?

I'm definitly running 15''s on my E30 m52 2,8 just need some ideas about the brakes up front. I know E30 325 will be enough but I'm going to track it.

Any source off information where to look for inspiration please post, thanks for reading

[MarkT]

I'm going to run mazda RX7 calipers and some corrado G60 front discs with the centres opened out and a 3mm spacer. Also a very simple bracket. Will fit under 15" wheels. Set-up has cost £50 for the calipers and about £40 for the discs and the brackets have just cost my time.

There are also big brake kits out there, but i'm sure theres plenty of people out there who will fill you in on those ;)

[e301988325i]

As above the G60 disc is an upgrade from 260mm to 280mm. Two calipers? Source decent calipers.

[keri-WMS]

I don't even think there's room for two calipers, and it just adds weight and piston area problems anyway! Here's a load of info on a few setups: http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=113229

Also here's the WMS/G60 280mm setup in the 15" BBS, safe to say there's no room to go bigger.

[UweM3]

I run 300x28 with a sinlge piston sliding caliper and that fits under 15"

[keri-WMS]

I run 300x28 with a sinlge piston sliding caliper and that fits under 15"

Sliders do take up less room due to the lack of opposing pistons, but a lot depends on the actual wheel.

I've seen 310mm 4 pots under 15" Team Dynamics for instance - are you talking about the 15" BBS still?

[GreatOldOne]

keri - do you have a website with your products on? I'm thinking of upgrading the brakes on my e30 based kit car (Marlin Sportster). It's running normal 325 front and rear brakes at the moment, and standard 15" BBS cross spokes (7J, ET24)

I'd like a full replacement, front and rear, so advice on what's suitable for the rear discs would be great, as well as a pointer to where I can find out more about them.

Cheers,

Jason

[keri-WMS]

keri - do you have a website with your products on? I'm thinking of upgrading the brakes on my e30 based kit car (Marlin Sportster). It's running normal 325 front and rear brakes at the moment, and standard 15" BBS cross spokes (7J, ET24)

I'd like a full replacement, front and rear, so advice on what's suitable for the rear discs would be great, as well as a pointer to where I can find out more about them.

Cheers,

Jason

Hiya, no live website at the moment I'm afraid, something that needs sorting soon!

The WMS 280mm kit does fit inside the 325i BBS but not the (very rare) 325ix BBS, I'm not sure what the ET of each one is offhand.

For the rear all I can offer at the moment is new discs and uprated pads (to match the front), although it's something we'll be looking at.

Given that you have a kitcar there are other ways we can help, there are two other sizes of caliper piston in stock, plus we can get the hoses made to your spec if needed.

Drop me a PM!

Keri

[UweM3]

I run 300x28 with a sinlge piston sliding caliper and that fits under 15"

Sliders do take up less room due to the lack of opposing pistons, but a lot depends on the actual wheel.

I've seen 310mm 4 pots under 15" Team Dynamics for instance - are you talking about the 15" BBS still?

I was more talking about the diameter, not piston clearance. 4 pots will always be difficult under E30 rims.
E32 735 runs 300mm disks in 15 inch BBS wheels but the disk offset is more than E30.

[keri-WMS]

I run 300x28 with a sinlge piston sliding caliper and that fits under 15"

Sliders do take up less room due to the lack of opposing pistons, but a lot depends on the actual wheel.

I've seen 310mm 4 pots under 15" Team Dynamics for instance - are you talking about the 15" BBS still?

I was more talking about the diameter, not piston clearance. 4 pots will always be difficult under E30 rims.
E32 735 runs 300mm disks in 15 inch BBS wheels but the disk offset is more than E30.

Fair enough, you are absolutely right about the E30 rims being a pain for 4pots, especially the deep-dish ones!

The inner part of most wheels gets bigger as you move away from the spokes, so with a deep enough disc you can get a much better diameter - but all that pesky suspension gets in the way!!!

[Aberdean]

Thanks guys for the awesome responses I'm looking over them now and i'll get an idea of where I'm going. i would love to keep the wheels as 15'' rather than going bigger...mainly due to costs but also I think it would be best for how i'm going to use it too.

Thanks again chaps you've all been a great help

[dcoeinside]

Just a quick question regarding E30 braking set ups at the front...What is the maxmium caliper that can be used under a 15'' wheel? And further to that has anyone ever run the setup of two calipers on either side of the wheel to combat this (i.e Two calipers for one wheel)?

I'm definitly running 15''s on my E30 m52 2,8 just need some ideas about the brakes up front. I know E30 325 will be enough but I'm going to track it.

Any source off information where to look for inspiration please post, thanks for reading

Hi,

in my eyes this is the optimum rim/brake combo:

8x15 ATS DTC with 300x25mm discs and BREMBO/PORSCHE 996 caliper

Rear 294x19mm with 996 rear caliper









Regards

Christoph

[Aberdean]

WoW now we're talking! Thanks for that input i'll look into that...I know 924/944 fit ok but 996 would be a HELL OF A LEAP! Thanks.

[keri-WMS]

It's possible to fit 300mm discs / 4 pots inside a lot of motorsport 15" alloys, the question is (A) do they need big wheel spacers when the correct offset - ie over 2mm really, and (B) do they fit the 15" 325i BBS (again without daft spacers!)

Adding thick spacers messes up the handling, and brings the tyre closer to the arch - ideally you want to keep things where BMW intended!

[jmc330i]

It's possible to fit 300mm discs / 4 pots inside a lot of motorsport 15" alloys, the question is (A) do they need big wheel spacers when the correct offset - ie over 2mm really, and (B) do they fit the 15" 325i BBS (again without daft spacers!)

Ive found these on 300mm.de....

Clicky and Clicky

They seem to fit the 15" BBS, but use 10-15mm spacers to do so.

[keri-WMS]

It's possible to fit 300mm discs / 4 pots inside a lot of motorsport 15" alloys, the question is (A) do they need big wheel spacers when the correct offset - ie over 2mm really, and (B) do they fit the 15" 325i BBS (again without daft spacers!)

Ive found these on 300mm.de....

Clicky and Clicky

They seem to fit the 15" BBS, but use 10-15mm spacers to do so.

I noticed those recently. What I don't fully understand is how the BBS is concentic to the hub - I found that with a 7mm (OEM thickness) disc flange and a 2mm spacer the BBS is still located, but just increasing to a 3mm spacer allows movement.

It must use "hubcentric" spacers of some kind, not just normal wheel spacers.

[jmc330i]

It must use "hubcentric" spacers of some kind, not just normal wheel spacers.

My German isnt that good and even the translated pages arent the best to read, but I think for the 16" wheel, no spacer is required.

For the 15" wheel, spacers are needed, but I dont think they include them in the kit, so its down to the buyer to sort them.

As you say, hubcentric spacers would be the only way to go, although Im not sure about running 15mm spacers for the reasons you stated above.

[keri-WMS]

It must use "hubcentric" spacers of some kind, not just normal wheel spacers.

My German isnt that good and even the translated pages arent the best to read, but I think for the 16" wheel, no spacer is required.

For the 15" wheel, spacers are needed, but I dont think they include them in the kit, so its down to the buyer to sort them.

As you say, hubcentric spacers would be the only way to go, although Im not sure about running 15mm spacers for the reasons you stated above.

Translated German can be classic!

Looking at the photos at the bottom of the first link, there's a big wheel spacer fitted on the 16" Alpina mockup as well?

[GeoffBob]

What I don't fully understand is how the BBS is concentic to the hub - I found that with a 7mm (OEM thickness) disc flange and a 2mm spacer the BBS is still located, but just increasing to a 3mm spacer allows movement.

It must use "hubcentric" spacers of some kind, not just normal wheel spacers.

Sorry, I didn't look at the links, but with a spacer too thin to be hubcentric (I think the thinnest hubcentric spacer is around 10 to 12mm thick if memory serves) they would probably use hub-extenders that press into the hub in order to centre both the spacer and wheel. I designed a set of these up for someone on the zone not so long ago. I am still not a fan of wheel spacers though and believe in keeping the wheel load centred over the mid-line of the bearing (as BMW intended, something that spacers defeat).

[UweM3]

What I don't fully understand is how the BBS is concentic to the hub - I found that with a 7mm (OEM thickness) disc flange and a 2mm spacer the BBS is still located, but just increasing to a 3mm spacer allows movement.

It must use "hubcentric" spacers of some kind, not just normal wheel spacers.

Sorry, I didn't look at the links, but with a spacer too thin to be hubcentric (I think the thinnest hubcentric spacer is around 10 to 12mm thick if memory serves) they would probably use hub-extenders that press into the hub in order to centre both the spacer and wheel. I designed a set of these up for someone on the zone not so long ago. I am still not a fan of wheel spacers though and believe in keeping the wheel load centred over the mid-line of the bearing (as BMW intended, something that spacers defeat).

the germans won't use these. I'll have a look at the webpage and see if I can translate

[keri-WMS]

Sorry, I didn't look at the links, but with a spacer too thin to be hubcentric (I think the thinnest hubcentric spacer is around 10 to 12mm thick if memory serves) they would probably use hub-extenders that press into the hub in order to centre both the spacer and wheel. I designed a set of these up for someone on the zone not so long ago. I am still not a fan of wheel spacers though and believe in keeping the wheel load centred over the mid-line of the bearing (as BMW intended, something that spacers defeat).

Would you believe I was in the middle of modeling these up myself (for 3-5mm spacers)? I had designed them with a slot to stop them jamming in place, then realised that the hub would then not be sealed!

[UweM3]

ok here we go.

for fitting the Boxter calipers and disk you need a 10mm spacer for the Alpina rim and the oem basket wave needs a 13mm spacer of better a 15mm spacer. The disk itself does NOT increase track width

The hub extenders are originally from Turner Motorsport in the US but they only make them in M3 E30 fitment

I was going to make a few for myself and have measured different wheel bearings to get an idea of fitment and they differ quite a bit.
No problem with the OEM elastic grease cap, but with the solid aluminium plug you need to be careful to get the interference fit right or they won't stay in place.

[GeoffBob]

Would you believe I was in the middle of modeling these up myself (for 3-5mm spacers)? I had designed them with a slot to stop them jamming in place, then realised that the hub would then not be sealed!

If you plan to manufacture some up yourself Keri then consider machining them up out of 7075 rather than 6082 aluminium alloy. I find the harder 7075 alloy to be better suited, especially when it comes time to knock them in and out of the hub with a plastic mallet. Bit more expensive out of 7075 though.

[dcoeinside]

Hi,

just a short notice to my reply. I build this brakesystem by my self. It is not bought at 300mm.de.

You will need spacers to fit this brake. For ATS DTC 8x15 ET20 about 15mm spacers. But you will need spacers too, if you have a coil over suspension. (distance tire/spring)

Regards

Christoph

[keri-WMS]

If you plan to manufacture some up yourself Keri then consider machining them up out of 7075 rather than 6082 aluminium alloy. I find the harder 7075 alloy to be better suited, especially when it comes time to knock them in and out of the hub with a plastic mallet. Bit more expensive out of 7075 though.

I was considering stainless vs 6082 - good point though about dent resistance on Alu!

I was going to make a few for myself and have measured different wheel bearings to get an idea of fitment and they differ quite a bit.
No problem with the OEM elastic grease cap, but with the solid aluminium plug you need to be careful to get the interference fit right or they won't stay in place.

As for the press-fit I was hoping the hub I.D. was a pretty tight / consistant tolerance, do you mean the press-in thin steel caps vary as well?

[UweM3]

As for the press-fit I was hoping the hub I.D. was a pretty tight / consistant tolerance, do you mean the press-in thin steel caps vary as well?

They have some give by design to keep them in place. More or less

If you want to make them for sale get your vernier in as many as possible wheel bearings to make sure you can verify my findings.
What 3D CAD are you using? (just a shame less plug offering my services, sorry)

[keri-WMS]

They have some give by design to keep them in place. More or less

If you want to make them for sale get your vernier in as many as possible wheel bearings to make sure you can verify my findings.
What 3D CAD are you using? (just a shame less plug offering my services, sorry)

lol! Solid Edge...

[Cook318IS]

Keri, do the g60 discs fit without any drilling a new PCD? What pads fit the WMS kit too? Are they specific pads?

Cheers bud

[keri-WMS]

Keri, do the g60 discs fit without any drilling a new PCD? What pads fit the WMS kit too? Are they specific pads?

Cheers bud

G60 discs: correct 4x100 PCD, just need the bore and chamfer enlarging.

WMS T20 caliper pads: Very common motorsport shape and are supported by EBC, Mintex, Pagid, Ferodo, Carbotech, Carbone Lorrain (SP?), Wilwood, Hawk, Performance Friction and probably more I've forgotten. The good thing is they are normally about half the price for the same compound pads when compared to the E30 OEM shape pads!

Basically Gareth could kill me off on a trackday and you lot can still get spares!

[Cook318IS]

Keri, do the g60 discs fit without any drilling a new PCD? What pads fit the WMS kit too? Are they specific pads?

Cheers bud

G60 discs: correct 4x100 PCD, just need the bore and chamfer enlarging.

WMS T20 caliper pads: Very common motorsport shape and are supported by EBC, Mintex, Pagid, Ferodo, Carbotech, Carbone Lorrain (SP?), Wilwood, Hawk, Performance Friction and probably more I've forgotten. The good thing is they are normally about half the price for the same compound pads when compared to the E30 OEM shape pads!

Basically Gareth could kill me off on a trackday and you lot can still get spares!

say for example if the flywheel bolts start coming loose in his car?

I presume any machine shop would be able to enlarge the bore and the chamfer angle?

Expect a call somepoint in the future!

[keri-WMS]

Keri, do the g60 discs fit without any drilling a new PCD? What pads fit the WMS kit too? Are they specific pads?

Cheers bud

G60 discs: correct 4x100 PCD, just need the bore and chamfer enlarging.

WMS T20 caliper pads: Very common motorsport shape and are supported by EBC, Mintex, Pagid, Ferodo, Carbotech, Carbone Lorrain (SP?), Wilwood, Hawk, Performance Friction and probably more I've forgotten. The good thing is they are normally about half the price for the same compound pads when compared to the E30 OEM shape pads!

Basically Gareth could kill me off on a trackday and you lot can still get spares!

say for example if the flywheel bolts start coming loose in his car?

I presume any machine shop would be able to enlarge the bore and the chamfer angle?

Expect a call somepoint in the future!

Bad Gareth, "more" locktite next time! Also I happen to know that when Bexley Motor Works heard about it they said "that's what happens when you grind the gears on a manual E30 era BMW while on track!"

You're right about the machine shop - they are also available from me!

Look forward to hearing from you - I've got ONE pair of brackets left now until the 26th Feb now by the way.

[gareth]

that sounds about right... there was gear grinding going on, though i suspect the flywheel bolts trying to hold the clutch plate at crank speed may explain why i was getting unusual grinding in the first place.

i'm going to empty a bottle of loctite 638 onto the new bolts before i fit them!

[GeoffBob]

I'm going to empty a bottle of loctite 638 onto the new bolts before i fit them!

Don't, you'll probably get hydraulic lock as you tighten down the nuts and crack the flywheel knowing your luck LOL

Keri, do the g60 discs fit without any drilling a new PCD? What pads fit the WMS kit too? Are they specific pads?

Cook, right click here and select "save target as .." to download my PDF document describing exactly how to do the G60 conversion. I used Alcon callipers, but the conversion should work just fine with Keri's product. Even if you don't opt to do a G60 conversion you may find the detailed dimensions and general instructions helpful.

Regards
Geoff

[keri-WMS]

I used Alcon callipers, but the conversion should work just fine with Keri's product. Even if you don't opt to do a G60 conversion you may find the detailed dimensions and general instructions helpful.

Regards
Geoff

Actually the WMS kit doesn't use a spacer under the disc, so the chamfer to clear the radius on the hub needs to be on the disc. It's tight to the balljoint this way, but it's all about compromise - the couple of mm saved equates to wheel clearance and I haven't had any reports of problems...

However...if you have a WMS kit and would like to fit the GeoffBob style 3mm spacer/disc setup it will still work, you'll just need to add 3mm washers either between the caliper and bracket, or probably better between the bracket and strut. You'll also need 3mm longer bolts at the point you fitted the spacers to keep full thread engagement.

This may even still allow the 15" BBS to fit as spoke clearance is ok, it's radial clearance that's tight, but I can't confirm.

My last point is that I would recomend copying the E30 OEM disc chamfer outside diameter (meaning a shallower angle), just in case BMW had some hubs with a larger radius (still within their clearance specs).

[UweM3]

keri where can I read more about your brake kit?