Using Halford's own brand oil.

[HairyScreech]

guess we all have, i do have to recomend the fuchs suspension oils though. there good.

[Kos]

right

i've been doing some reading on oils over the last few hours.

lets look at number....... 10w 40

the first number represents the cold temp viscosity and the latter the viscosity at 100degrees C, a temp which is commonly accepted at the "normal" opperating temp

a lot of talk on the e36 coupe forum in regards to oils for the e36 m3 is going on and people oil choice. and a lot of them are using 5W and 0W on engines that are recomended to use 10W oil. now for the life of me i can understand why some one would want to drop to a thinner cold temp rated oil. now, temps in this country do not drop that low normally ( the last 2 weeks are an exception ). now considering most of use treat out cars with certain amount of respect, no one in their right mind will hammer their cars from cold. also, if your engine is in good working order, oil pump and oil channels etc why drop to cooler grade? we all let our cars warm up buit before givem them some stick, and in reality the oil will flow up top fairly quickly anyway if all is in good working order...... my take on it is the thinner oils drip to the bottom of the sump and can leave the top end "dry" which will then leave the engine open to more damge on cold starts when extrenal temps are normal............

ok some people have said that they have heared the vanos ticking away, and some people have heard the tappets being noisier but others have said their engines performed better. some people have seen an increae in oil consumption and increase in fuel comsumption, other have had neither.......... it ultimately depands on the state of health and tune of your engine

my take on this is that if its road car, the use the the oil grade recomendation that the manucacturer recomends, but if you live in colder climate, a seasonal change may be a good idea. if you track the car, then again looking at using an oil with a working temp viscosity that will "save" your car on track maybe a good idea. thats what i'll be looking at for the M52, but ultimatelty i think i will stick with 10W 40 oil because for me it best suits my needs and demands

in regards to branding............

all oil is there to do job and for the most of us where we drive normaly anything is up to the job. this by no means means "oil is oil". the Halfords is HUGE company with reputation to uphold and keep. they dont employ some skivy to make it in shed and think, that 'll do. they use w known reputable company to do it for them and they invest the money to do it.

the bigger picture is as such.............

i shall use castrol and an exmple here,

the traditional white GTX tub was the comonly seen on the shelf, but has now been pretty much replaced by the magnatec range with Edge being its premium offering.
they spend the money developing these oils in close association and development with companies like BMW. the maganatec is out selling the white tubbed GTX stuff, wich they equaly spent time and money developing in the past. to a point it does its job well, but with engine technology moving ahead with multi valve engines, vanos systems etc they have to develop oils to perform in way thats more in tune with the current trends. to further help their investment, they may well sell the technolgy and supply haldfords their older stuff to sell as their on branded stuff, as the GTX is now almost obselete and they have the Magnatec stuff as their mail line brand. for them its win win situation, they can supply in bulk for halfords, and the snobs will buy the newer improved stuff.

i fear that with the M3's and a lot of people using thiner cold graded oils becasue they belive they perform better will lead to many of these engines siffeeing from premature failure. i can understand the need to use engine oils they flow better at higher temps , but this is purely for track and race work. i have heard of e46 M3 not using the correct BMW recomended oil and suffernig from engine failure. the same stories have surface on the s50 and s52. i suspect that the Vanos issues that have arrised over the years are purely from the wrong oil being used.

if i do decide to do track days in my compact with has an M52 in it, i may need an oil with better viscosity at opperating temp, but the down side is it will have thinner cold operating temp, and this will be in the summer months when its not required.

so, this subject is complete head fuck and you know what, i'll stick to the BMW recomendations and be done with

ps one thing i have learnt is i will use fully synthetic oil, as multigrade oils DO have additives that can break down and cause probelems when the engine is being used in anger for prolonged periods.

lots of info here
http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/moto ... index.html

[Kos]

a quick extra in regards to semi synthetics........

a point made by simon13, (this bit is pinched off the link i posted) the magantec synthetic is a filtered grade 2 oil, wiich now a grade 3 synthetic oil, magnatec falls into this catagory

grade 2 oils with aditives.....VI is viscosity Index

Multi-grade motor oils perform a great service not being too thick at cold startup to prevent engine wear by providing more instantaneous oil flow to critical engine parts. However, there is a draw back. These additives shear back in high heat or during high shear force operation and break down causing some sludging. What's worse is once the additive begins to be depleted the motor oil no long resists thinning so now you have a thinner motor oil at 210 degrees

VI improving additives can shear back under pressure and high heat conditions leaving the motor oil unable to protect the engine properly under high heat conditions and cause sludging. Also there is a limit to how much viscosity improving additives can be added without affecting the rest of the motor oil's chemistry. Auto manufacturers have moved away from some motor oils that require a lot of viscosity improving additives, like the 10W-40 and 20W-50 motor oils, to blends that require less viscosity additives like the 5W-20, 5W-30 and 10W-30 motor oils
grade 3 oils
As more and more large oil companies switched their "synthetic" motor oils to the less expensive/more profitable Group III (3) base stocks it has become much easier to identify which are PAO based true synthetic. Of the large oil companies, only Mobil 1, as of this writing (12-15-2007), is still a PAO based true synthetic. The rest, including Castrol Syntec, have switched to the cheaper/more profitable Group III (3) petroleum based "synthetic" motor oil

so, the track day heros will need s group 4 based oil


Only the Group IV (4) PAO base synthetics have the saturated chemistry to resist degrading when exposed to the by products of combustion and heat, plus typically employ no VI additives making them very thermally stable for longer periods. For this reason the Group IV (4) synthetics maintain peak mileage and power throughout their service life

[Kos]

As log as the SAE numbers are the same, whatever the price the oil will perform the same.... British Standards (or whatever the "governing" body is) says it will

erm, read the link

SAE numbers will head fuck you fella

http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/moto ... index.html

[B7]

right

i've been doing some reading on oils over the last few hours.

lets look at number....... 10w 40

the first number represents the cold temp viscosity and the latter the viscosity at 100degrees C, a temp which is commonly accepted at the "normal" opperating temp

a lot of talk on the e36 coupe forum in regards to oils for the e36 m3 is going on and people oil choice. and a lot of them are using 5W and 0W on engines that are recomended to use 10W oil. now for the life of me i can understand why some one would want to drop to a thinner cold temp rated oil. now, temps in this country do not drop that low normally ( the last 2 weeks are an exception ). now considering most of use treat out cars with certain amount of respect, no one in their right mind will hammer their cars from cold. also, if your engine is in good working order, oil pump and oil channels etc why drop to cooler grade? we all let our cars warm up buit before givem them some stick, and in reality the oil will flow up top fairly quickly anyway if all is in good working order...... my take on it is the thinner oils drip to the bottom of the sump and can leave the top end "dry" which will then leave the engine open to more damge on cold starts when extrenal temps are normal............

ok some people have said that they have heared the vanos ticking away, and some people have heard the tappets being noisier but others have said their engines performed better. some people have seen an increae in oil consumption and increase in fuel comsumption, other have had neither.......... it ultimately depands on the state of health and tune of your engine

my take on this is that if its road car, the use the the oil grade recomendation that the manucacturer recomends, but if you live in colder climate, a seasonal change may be a good idea. if you track the car, then again looking at using an oil with a working temp viscosity that will "save" your car on track maybe a good idea. thats what i'll be looking at for the M52, but ultimatelty i think i will stick with 10W 40 oil because for me it best suits my needs and demands

in regards to branding............

all oil is there to do job and for the most of us where we drive normaly anything is up to the job. this by no means means "oil is oil". the Halfords is HUGE company with reputation to uphold and keep. they dont employ some skivy to make it in shed and think, that 'll do. they use w known reputable company to do it for them and they invest the money to do it.

the bigger picture is as such.............

i shall use castrol and an exmple here,

the traditional white GTX tub was the comonly seen on the shelf, but has now been pretty much replaced by the magnatec range with Edge being its premium offering.
they spend the money developing these oils in close association and development with companies like BMW. the maganatec is out selling the white tubbed GTX stuff, wich they equaly spent time and money developing in the past. to a point it does its job well, but with engine technology moving ahead with multi valve engines, vanos systems etc they have to develop oils to perform in way thats more in tune with the current trends. to further help their investment, they may well sell the technolgy and supply haldfords their older stuff to sell as their on branded stuff, as the GTX is now almost obselete and they have the Magnatec stuff as their mail line brand. for them its win win situation, they can supply in bulk for halfords, and the snobs will buy the newer improved stuff.

i fear that with the M3's and a lot of people using thiner cold graded oils becasue they belive they perform better will lead to many of these engines siffeeing from premature failure. i can understand the need to use engine oils they flow better at higher temps , but this is purely for track and race work. i have heard of e46 M3 not using the correct BMW recomended oil and suffernig from engine failure. the same stories have surface on the s50 and s52. i suspect that the Vanos issues that have arrised over the years are purely from the wrong oil being used.

if i do decide to do track days in my compact with has an M52 in it, i may need an oil with better viscosity at opperating temp, but the down side is it will have thinner cold operating temp, and this will be in the summer months when its not required.

so, this subject is complete head **** and you know what, i'll stick to the BMW recomendations and be done with

ps one thing i have learnt is i will use fully synthetic oil, as multigrade oils DO have additives that can break down and cause probelems when the engine is being used in anger for prolonged periods.

lots of info here
http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/moto ... index.html

I concur my man. Makes a lot of sense and basically answers the OP's question. KOS writes
"Halfords is HUGE company with reputation to uphold and keep. they dont employ some skivy to make it in shed and think, that 'll do. they use w known reputable company to do it for them and they invest the money to do it."
and
Sums it up nicely.

I've also been wary of using thinner oils than specced in the past for the exact reason Kosman states
"my take on it is the thinner oils drip to the bottom of the sump and can leave the top end "dry" which will then leave the engine open to more damge on cold starts when extrenal temps are normal"

However, I HAVE switched to thicker grades on higher mileage engines that use a bit of oil with good success.

Take the M54b30 as in my e39 sport. These engines are reknowned for being a user. and indeed mines no different, not bad by any means and well within the rate expected as normal by BMW. This engine (IIRC) is recommended using a 0w 30 or a 5w 40 oil. I've switched to a 10w 40 and guess what. Oil usage has ceased. But am I causing any future issue? I'm in two minds!!!!

It's going into Barrys very soon for a service. Do I say to bazzla, stick BMW's 10/40 in it or instruct him to go with the recommended oil It's got 102k up now with FULL bmw sh.

[StuBeeDoo]

Interesting thread with some interesting/useful comments.

For the last 5 years I've been using manufacturer-branded 10/40 semi-synth. Started with MGRover XPart-branded, but once MGR went bust changed to Nissan-branded.
I can't remember what I pay for it, but it's less than a tenner for 5ltrs. It gets changed as soon as the last green light goes out, which is usually 6.5-7k miles. I use Mann filters from ECP.

My M20B20, which I only binned because it had blown the head gasket, regularly got revved past 6k and when I pulled it apart the shells, pistons and bores would all have gone on. As with other peoples highish mileage engines, it still had plainly visible honing marks on the bores. At that point the engine had done 170k miles.

I've never had any oil-related issues (other then the factory-fitted M20 leaks) so I see no reason to change. I'm in the "old technology engines don't need new technology oils" camp.

[darkchild]

Take the M54b30 as in my e39 sport. These engines are reknowned for being a user. and indeed mines no different, not bad by any means and well within the rate expected as normal by BMW. This engine (IIRC) is recommended using a 0w 30 or a 5w 40 oil. I've switched to a 10w 40 and guess what. Oil usage has ceased. But am I causing any future issue? I'm in two minds!!!!

10W40 is fine in a M54. A friend of mine used this is his 330ci - oil consumption ceased and no other problems in 60K.

[B7]

Take the M54b30 as in my e39 sport. These engines are reknowned for being a user. and indeed mines no different, not bad by any means and well within the rate expected as normal by BMW. This engine (IIRC) is recommended using a 0w 30 or a 5w 40 oil. I've switched to a 10w 40 and guess what. Oil usage has ceased. But am I causing any future issue? I'm in two minds!!!!

10W40 is fine in a M54. A friend of mine used this is his 330ci - oil consumption ceased and no other problems in 60K.

Thats what i want to hear.

I still reckon the Vanos and early mechanical failures on later BMW engines is more down to the length of the service schedules TBO. They are now far too long IMO.

[darkchild]

Thats what i want to hear.

I still reckon the Vanos and early mechanical failures on later BMW engines is more down to the length of the service schedules TBO. They are now far too long IMO.

You're telling me! The maintenance guide for the E90 3 Series in Total BMW this month states that the BMW dealer recommends the engine oil is changed every 25K for petrol engines. Utter madness to satisfy the repmobile market.

My E46 service indicator has about 18K between services but I'll still be getting the oil changed every 8-10K.

[Demlotcrew]

I cant believe what im reading! - I didnt realise the zone had so many chemical petroleum engineers.

Seriously people, stop speculating and dont give up your day jobs!

[Jesus325iTouring]

I use the cheap shit,all ways have,never had a seized or shot engine because of it.

[old_skool]

Interesting thread with some interesting/useful comments.

For the last 5 years I've been using manufacturer-branded 10/40 semi-synth. Started with MGRover XPart-branded, but once MGR went bust changed to Nissan-branded.
I can't remember what I pay for it, but it's less than a tenner for 5ltrs. It gets changed as soon as the last green light goes out, which is usually 6.5-7k miles. I use Mann filters from ECP.

My M20B20, which I only binned because it had blown the head gasket, regularly got revved past 6k and when I pulled it apart the shells, pistons and bores would all have gone on. As with other peoples highish mileage engines, it still had plainly visible honing marks on the bores. At that point the engine had done 170k miles.

I've never had any oil-related issues (other then the factory-fitted M20 leaks) so I see no reason to change. I'm in the "old technology engines don't need new technology oils" camp.

I'm not amazed by the frequency of your oil changes Stu, more the fact that you have an SI board that is still operational

[StuBeeDoo]

I'm not amazed by the frequency of your oil changes Stu, more the fact that you have an SI board that is still operational

I'm sure it's only a matter of time.

[e301988325i]

I'm not amazed by the frequency of your oil changes Stu, more the fact that you have an SI board that is still operational

Is that unusual?

[Morat]

Getting more unusual every year, I'd say. You need to change out the SI batteries soon after they fail or they leak and take out more of the instrument panel.

Of course, its really quite simple to take out the cluster (I did it!) and change the batteries yourself before they fail but this seems to be quite a rare option ;)

[StuBeeDoo]

I'm not amazed by the frequency of your oil changes Stu, more the fact that you have an SI board that is still operational

Is that unusual?

IIRC, there are 2 different types of battery fitted on the SI board. One type is longer lasting than the other.
Brian knows the specifics.

I had a 150k cluster from an earlier car that was on the blink. It was the other manufacturer to mine. They're VDO and Motometer, but I can't remember which is early and which is late - and I don't know if the manufacturer of the cluster is relevant to which type of battery is fitted.

The original cluster in my car now has 183k on it and the car was assembled in October '90.

[B7]

I cant believe what im reading! - I didnt realise the zone had so many chemical petroleum engineers.

Seriously people, stop speculating and dont give up your day jobs!

And your recomendation is Andrew?

[bss325i]

I cant believe what im reading! - I didnt realise the zone had so many chemical petroleum engineers.

Seriously people, stop speculating and dont give up your day jobs!

And your recomendation is Andrew?

You would be surprised what he told me about halford oil!

[Kos]

demlot,

We all have opinions, we all speculate, we all try to understand but I doubt if any one here actually is a petroleum engineer

But I have one question and its nothing to do with the oil brand, Why should anyone go for a thinner grade of oil as to what the engine manufacturer recomends unless you have a a bespoke engine built and the engine builder recomends something else ? at racing rpm's it may be wiser to have an oil that flows quicker at a given temp as it will move about better but, could that not infant be detrimenttalk to a given engine , and actually NOT provide it with the care and protection it needs ? With out having an oil temp gauge and oil pressure reading we are purely speculating are we not ? The best option is to go for a synthetic garde oil that we know has been developed and manufactured with out additives that will break down and be unable to do the job its ment to do...............

[Morat]

The thing I can't make my mind up on is whether to go for 5/40 instead of 10/40. My thinking is that the lower viscocity at startup would get the oil round the engine faster and provide protection from early on. The worry is that it would drain down when the engine is off and mean that the head/valvetrain were dry (dryer) than with standard spec oil.

Would any petroleum engineers care to speculate?

[Morat]

demlot,

We all have opinions, we all speculate, we all try to understand but I doubt if any one here actually is a petroleum engineer

But I have one question and its nothing to do with the oil brand, Why should anyone go for a thinner grade of oil as to what the engine manufacturer recomends unless you have a a bespoke engine built and the engine builder recomends something else ? at racing rpm's it may be wiser to have an oil that flows quicker at a given temp as it will move about better but, could that not infant be detrimenttalk to a given engine , and actually NOT provide it with the care and protection it needs ? With out having an oil temp gauge and oil pressure reading we are purely speculating are we not ? The best option is to go for a synthetic garde oil that we know has been developed and manufactured with out additives that will break down and be unable to do the job its ment to do...............

For an engine getting hard use on a track you'd want thicker oil,surely? like a x/50 instead of x/40. This is assuming that the engine is running hotter than standard and the thicker oil is being heated to the extent that it thins to standard spec viscosity in use.

[Demlotcrew]

Why would oil running back to the sump in an M20 make any difference to the protection of the head/valvetrain when cold starting?

The M20 uses a spray bar which is fed directly from the mail oil gallery (which also serves the cam journals) and this is always 'pressurised' because the oneway valve on the oil pump ensures oil doesn't return back to the sump - meaning every time you turn over the engine oil sprays almost instantly on to 'parts of the valvetrain' which need it.

5w40 will be as 'dry' when cold as 10w40

In the winter use 5w40 in the summer use 10w40 - its that simple.

So again i ask, Why would oil running back to the sump in an M20 make any difference to the protection of the head/valvetrain when cold starting?

[Morat]

Why would oil running back to the sump in an M20 make any difference to the protection of the head/valvetrain when cold starting?

The M20 uses a spray bar which is fed directly from the mail oil gallery (which also serves the cam journals) and this is always 'pressurised' because the oneway valve on the oil pump ensures oil doesn't return back to the sump - meaning every time you turn over the engine oil sprays almost instantly on to 'parts of the valvetrain' which need it.

5w40 will be as 'dry' when cold as 10w40

In the winter use 5w40 in the summer use 10w40 - its that simple.

So again i ask, Why would oil running back to the sump in an M20 make any difference to the protection of the head/valvetrain when cold starting?

I don't know - I was genuinely asking the question!

So, I'll probably get a nice 5/40 full synth next time around.

[Andyboy]

I've used Castrol magnatec for 10 years and never had an issue with it. Before that I used old GTX. I've used Halfords oil as well as oil in General Motors oil drums as well as Unipart. Never had a problem yet. My old E32 has done 291'000 and it's never had so much as a whiff of fully synthetic oil - it had minereal multigrade in it 20 years ago and has run on Magnatec and GM oil for the last 85'000 miles and 7 years. Remove the cam cover and it's as clean and silvery as it was 15-20 years ago.

[Andyboy]

So again i ask, Why would oil running back to the sump in an M20 make any difference to the protection of the head/valvetrain when cold starting?

It wouldn't! As well as the residual oil held in the oil galleries, the oil filter itself holds oil so that the moment the engine cranks, the pump is forcing what's in the galleries around.

The camshaft and rockers are the highest stressed part in the engine with regards to trying to shear the oil. The reason BMW cams wear out is a direct result of neglect, nothing more. Change the oil every 6000 miles and you don't get black death building up in the spray bar and blocking the oil holes.

[B7]

So again i ask, Why would oil running back to the sump in an M20 make any difference to the protection of the head/valvetrain when cold starting?

It wouldn't! As well as the residual oil held in the oil galleries, the oil filter itself holds oil so that the moment the engine cranks, the pump is forcing what's in the galleries around.

The camshaft and rockers are the highest stressed part in the engine with regards to trying to shear the oil. The reason BMW cams wear out is a direct result of neglect, nothing more. Change the oil every 6000 miles and you don't get black death building up in the spray bar and blocking the oil holes.

Which brings us back to my point of premature failure on later BMW's must be due to the lengthened service intervals.

No matter how much oil technology has moved on, an engine is an engine. Yes we now have multivalve heads, closer tolerances and fuel injection but a bearing is a bearing at the end of the day. Change the oil every 6k = , change the oil every 18k = It has to! Does'nt it? Common sense surely.

[Andyboy]

Yes and no. Modern oils hold the black stuff (by products from combustion) in suspension better, tighter tolerances mean less ring blow by (thats what makes the oil black), engines have less coolant capacity meaning that the coolant and the oil warms up faster and modern fully synthetic oils just last longer. I've seen E90's with over 150'000 miles and they're fine. I would personally do 9000 mile oil changes however.

[bss325i]

BMW coolant on cars from 2003 is now lifetime with no intervals.

Same as Automatic boxes on all BMW's bar R50/R52/R53 Minis.

[Blitz]

I've noticed newer BMW's warm up very quickly, whilst E30's take an age.

[B7]

BMW coolant on cars from 2003 is now lifetime with no intervals.

Same as Automatic boxes on all BMW's bar R50/R52/R53 Minis.

until one of their piss poor rads shits itself that is.....

And gearbox lifetime oil? WTF is all that about!

[Simon13]

alloy blocks and heads with no service interval on coolant. Will be interesting in a few years

E30's warm up quick

[town325i]

BMW coolant on cars from 2003 is now lifetime with no intervals.

Same as Automatic boxes on all BMW's bar R50/R52/R53 Minis.

until one of their pee pee poor rads shits itself that is.....

And gearbox lifetime oil? WTF is all that about!

they have been doing these for years

[darkchild]

BMW coolant on cars from 2003 is now lifetime with no intervals.

Same as Automatic boxes on all BMW's bar R50/R52/R53 Minis.

until one of their pee pee poor rads shits itself that is.....

And gearbox lifetime oil? WTF is all that about!

I've always changed the gearbox oil in my "sealed for life" BMW autos every 60K. Quite a difference it made in my old E36 - a lot smoother through the gears.

[darkchild]

My old E32 has done 291'000 and it's never had so much as a whiff of fully synthetic oil - it had minereal multigrade in it 20 years ago and has run on Magnatec and GM oil for the last 85'000 miles and 7 years. Remove the cam cover and it's as clean and silvery as it was 15-20 years ago.

291K???? If thats not a good advert for regular oil changes I don't know what is!