Which engine for a race/rally car? advice sought

[tony47492]

Hi gang, Im looking for some advice as to which engine I should be better off with for an upcoming comp car project. Would I be better off spending up to 2k (thats the budget) on a 1.8is 16v engine (and what would I get for the money?) or........ PURISTS LOOK AWAY NOW!! drop in something like a (readily available) red top vauxhall 16v? 200+ bhp on slide throttle set up, also within the budget of 2k. ? Obviously the BMW lump would be easier, but, as its a project car, a bit of fabrication wont be a problem. Im open to sugestions............ (4cyl 16v only tho)
Cheers, Tony

[kimbo]

If you use the red top, you'll be ineligeable for most championships, so IMHO stick with the IS lump.
TBH I think you'd struggle to get hold of a red top on bodies for your 2 grand anyway, the bodies alone would cost over a grand new, at leat £500 used. Bear in mind you'd need to be on stand alone management, as well.
I've often thought that a properly sorted IS motor on bodies and stand alone management would be a sound way to go racing, not too far off of a 2.3 M3 lump.

Kim

[tony47492]

Kim, red top is do-able in the budget. Done plenty of homework! Managment system wont cause too much problem either (I know a clever bloke!), the problem Im having is finding someone who can advise me regarding tuning the is lump. That would be preferable, but no matter who I talk to, or how many different ways I google it, I come up with very little. This is why I looked at the possibilities of a vauxhall lump. Any pointers would be a big help
Ta, Tony

[MarkT]

The XE will be a bit more torque friendly with the extra capacity. Or you could go 2.2 with a frontera bottom end? Where are you getting the slide throttles from? ;)

[kimbo]

I stand corrected on the red top, then.
Same comments apply, tho - if you're going to race it, you'll be in the PROPER big boys class of any championship I know of if you go with the XE or any non BMW motor.

There must be someone on here who has tuned (and I mean tuned, not turbo'd ) an M42.
I dont know how well the head flows as standard, so can't comment on amount of head work required. You'd need to up the CR so I reckon a set of forged pistons with raised compression height would be best (look up JE Pistons in the USA).
Pair of cams would be nice - Catcams or Schrick, depending on what they each do and then a set of E30M3 bodies grafted on - do the mainifolds fit, by any chance?
Ideally a set of forged H beam rods (or if not, polished and balanced originals) and balance the crank, flywheel, clutch cover as a unit.
Now the bad news - thats at least 3 - 3.5k worth , but still chickenfeed compared to what you'd spend making the car competitive in a 'Libre' type class, where you'll be up against Supertourers and DTM type machinery.

Fun, isn't it?

Kim

[chrisroberts]

2.0 Duratec on throttle bodies will get you around 200hp. It's more modern and lighter than a XE.

Or could go the honda s2000 engine route. Might be a bit more that £2000 but you won't get that type of reliability and power for the same price with much else.

[tony47492]

The XE will be a bit more torque friendly with the extra capacity. Or you could go 2.2 with a frontera bottom end? Where are you getting the slide throttles from? ;)

Was looking at SBD for the kit, although the more I look, the more I find available 2nd user for sensible money. If all avenues for injection were prohibitly expensive, I would happily strap a pair of DCOE`s on. As the XE is pretty bomb proof, Im not sure that (at this stage) I want to pull appart a running engine to put a stroker kit in to it. I wont rule anything out though!

[tony47492]

I stand corrected on the red top, then.
Same comments apply, tho - if you're going to race it, you'll be in the PROPER big boys class of any championship I know of if you go with the XE or any non BMW motor.
This, unfortunately, is my dilema I have been out of motorsport for a few years so I think I need to be visiting a few venues to see where my spec of car can slot in....

There must be someone on here who has tuned (and I mean tuned, not turbo'd ) an M42. >>>My thoughts exactly, but so far.....nowt!
I dont know how well the head flows as standard, so can't comment on amount of head work required. You'd need to up the CR so I reckon a set of forged pistons with raised compression height would be best (look up JE Pistons in the USA).
Pair of cams would be nice - Catcams or Schrick, depending on what they each do and then a set of E30M3 bodies grafted on - do the mainifolds fit, by any chance?
Ideally a set of forged H beam rods (or if not, polished and balanced originals) and balance the crank, flywheel, clutch cover as a unit.
Now the bad news - thats at least 3 - 3.5k worth , but still chickenfeed compared to what you'd spend making the car competitive in a 'Libre' type class, where you'll be up against Supertourers and DTM type machinery.
This is exactly why Im looking for an engine from a different manufacturer... why do I always pick the difficult route ?

Fun, isn't it?

Kim

[320ise]

hi i was looking into tuning an m42 a while back. i found this great thread about building a s42 replica engine

heres the link

http://m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4749

a bit of a read but loads of good info there.

[MarkT]

I stand corrected on the red top, then.
Same comments apply, tho - if you're going to race it, you'll be in the PROPER big boys class of any championship I know of if you go with the XE or any non BMW motor.

There must be someone on here who has tuned (and I mean tuned, not turbo'd ) an M42.
I dont know how well the head flows as standard, so can't comment on amount of head work required. You'd need to up the CR so I reckon a set of forged pistons with raised compression height would be best (look up JE Pistons in the USA).
Pair of cams would be nice - Catcams or Schrick, depending on what they each do and then a set of E30M3 bodies grafted on - do the mainifolds fit, by any chance?
Ideally a set of forged H beam rods (or if not, polished and balanced originals) and balance the crank, flywheel, clutch cover as a unit.
Now the bad news - thats at least 3 - 3.5k worth , but still chickenfeed compared to what you'd spend making the car competitive in a 'Libre' type class, where you'll be up against Supertourers and DTM type machinery.

Fun, isn't it?

Kim

For that 3-3.5k you could quite happily build an XE with 250 brake. Standard balanced crank it happy to rev to 8k and a little bit more, the oil pump will be on it's last legs if you go any higher, H beam rods are 400-500 and a set of JE pistons for the bottom end. A set of SBD cams, solid lifters, double valve springs and some nice head work. Go and ask some questions on www.vauxsport.com aboout tuning. Have a chat with my mate chip on there or a blok called steveboyslim (the only thing correct about that user name is the steve bit lol).

[tony47492]

Cheers MarkT, thats something like the spec Im after. Led to believe its all fairly reliable too.....
Tony

[tony47492]

hi i was looking into tuning an m42 a while back. i found this great thread about building a s42 replica engine

heres the link

http://m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4749

a bit of a read but loads of good info there.

Ta for the link. Awesome car there!
Tony

[MarkT]

Cheers MarkT, thats something like the spec Im after. Led to believe its all fairly reliable too.....
Tony

Only thing really to worry about is the oil pump. Revs seem to kill them, uprated internals and relief valve help but if you want to go over 8.5k then it's dry sump time. But then silly power's available.

[tony47492]

Cheers MarkT, thats something like the spec Im after. Led to believe its all fairly reliable too.....
Tony

Only thing really to worry about is the oil pump. Revs seem to kill them, uprated internals and relief valve help but if you want to go over 8.5k then it's dry sump time. [Takes me back to my era, BDX screamer on slide throttles, Vatenen, black Escort etc etc ]
But then silly power's available.

Thats where I would like to end up, but will do it in stages I think. Seems to be the way folk go with SBD.

[MarkT]

You don't have to use.. They seem to have an 'SBD tax' QED make some good profile cams as do catcams. Infact QED have most stuff your probably looking for.

I've had the SBD taper throttle body kit on an old XE and they are very good quality.. Jenvey stuff

I'd personally go down the route of having a standard engine with a set of TB's, rod bolts and uprated oil pump. Next stage do all the head work bar the lumpier cams and then final stage of bottom end work and the cams.

[tony47492]

You don't have to use.. They seem to have an 'SBD tax' QED make some good profile cams as do catcams. Infact QED have most stuff your probably looking for.

QED? I didnt think they would still be around. Think they were a v small concern when I was still in motorsport....

I've had the SBD taper throttle body kit on an old XE and they are very good quality.. Jenvey stuff

I'd personally go down the route of having a standard engine with a set of TB's, rod bolts and uprated oil pump. Next stage do all the head work bar the lumpier cams and then final stage of bottom end work and the cams.

[tony47492]

'SBD tax'

I had heard that too!!
Tony

[mt1104]

have you searched google for metric mechanic, USA based and a bit pricey, but shows whats possible.

[Dave_M3]

Are you restricted to 2Ls or just has to be a 4cyl 16v?

If it was me...
I'd have a 2L M42 on ITBs or if budget allowed, I'd have an S14.

[martinpallot]

Wouldnt go for the vauxhall tbh. A mate of mine put one into his e30. Although in theory it was going to be relatively cheap it mounted up to serious cash and it wasnt very good. he was so dissapointed by it that he sold it after one event.

It seems to be the old story, everyone wants lots of power and immediately starts talking about engines. The reality of it is that to get the best one of something like this you need a proper gearbox with decent ratios as well as a low ratio diff. The gearbox will set you back at least 2k to do properly.

Another thing is that I would avoid going for aset of throttle bodies and bolting them to a standard engine. It feels quick but its not believe me as I talk from experience. You will never get the best out of the engine with a set of tapered throttle bodies unless you go for wild cam, then you need solid lifters and head work, and in turn you need proper pistons to avoid piston clash.

No doubt I'l get slated for this as seems to be the case most of the time when someone puts something into perspective on here. However I think that as i've seen the outcome first hand I have a good idea of how these things go.

Of course If you have deep pockets then I apolagise as you could probably build an awesome car usinf a red-top/duratec provided you throw enough money at it.......but then thats the case with most cars.

[Dave_M3]

If he's using an M42, he'll be getting wild cams and doing headwork anyway though.

I agree Throttle bodies would be useless on a standard engine for any worthwhile gains. The M42 flows shite in the top-end anyway so it needs headwork if your going to be making a decent competition engine.

And as you say, the best gains are found in gear-ratios and diff ratios.
A 4.45 diff would make a stripped out iS with some minor mods very quick.

A dogleg box and a 3.64-3.91 final drive would be awesome (which is what I'm planning on doing for one of my cars but engine will be heavily modified too)

[aluntirlan]

"A 4.45 diff would make a stripped out iS with some minor mods very quick."

I used to have a 1905 cc Mi16 (standard but freshly built) engine in a 205GTi hillclimb car. It was on twin 45 carbs and drove through a Kaas LSD with 4:4 final drive. She made 170bhp and went like stink through the short gearing and LSD.

I'm now building a E30 fitted with an M42 and I too have considered a Redtop . If I was to stick with the M42, in what BMW model would I find a 4.45 LSD for my car?

Cheers - Alun

[Dave_M3]

Some E34s have the right cwp. Could get a Kazz LSD and put the whole lot into a medium case E30 casing then.

Which is what I plan on doing for one of my cars or else rebuild a BMW Limited slip unit to race spec.

[e301988325i]

throttle bodies will give awesome results on any engine, but they have to be matched in length and diameter to the given application, cam duration and cylinder size.

To the op.

M42 discussion thread

http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=118743

You might not want to hear it, but the only 4-pot that has the guts to get an E30 going on track is an S14, available with a nice gearbox too. By the time you've customised something non bmw to fit, you'll be at S14 money anyway.

an S2000 transplant has been done before, and no surprises it was still gutless. A 2.3 accord type R engine may be different though. Gearbox problems.

Porsche put a 3.0 4 pot 16v in something, but with a transaxle. That'd need a lot of work to get it running in an E30.

In my honest opinion, you best bet is an S14, and for that same money you could put a 300+bhp E36 M3 3.2L 6cyl 24v Evo engine and 6-speed box in your car. Now we'e moving

[rix313]

I'm now building a E30 fitted with an M42 and I too have considered a Redtop .

Alun, I thought you had to use a block that was specific to the model?

[Dave_M3]

throttle bodies will give awesome results on any engine, but they have to be matched in length and diameter to the given application, cam duration and cylinder size.

To the op.

M42 discussion thread

http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=118743

You might not want to hear it, but the only 4-pot that has the guts to get an E30 going on track is an S14, available with a nice gearbox too. By the time you've customised something non bmw to fit, you'll be at S14 money anyway.

an S2000 transplant has been done before, and no surprises it was still gutless. A 2.3 accord type R engine may be different though. Gearbox problems.

Porsche put a 3.0 4 pot 16v in something, but with a transaxle. That'd need a lot of work to get it running in an E30.

In my honest opinion, you best bet is an S14, and for that same money you could put a 300+bhp E36 M3 3.2L 6cyl 24v Evo engine and 6-speed box in your car. Now we'e moving

An S42 would get an E30 moving along on track quite nicely. Did well when hauling around E36s.

But, you would want a seriously good reason to use one of them such as stuck to original blocks and 2L limit while planning on being extremely competitive in your class and it would also want to be more than pride as a reward for winning races

[aluntirlan]

"Alun, I thought you had to use a block that was specific to the model?"

Hi Rich,

If I was to run the car in Modified Production, then yes you have to stick with a block that BMW put in the E30 shell.

The Welsh Championship and South West Championship have Rally Car classes that allow any kind of engine in any shell (but your car has to be log booked by the MSA as a Rally Car whicj means lights/MOT/plumbed in extinguishers/extra weight).

I'm still undecided as to which way to go, but I'm leaning towards a lightweight Mod Prod with an M42 with forced induction. It depends on what comes up when I've got the cash together I suppose...

Cheers - Alun

[e301988325i]

An S42 would get an E30 moving along on track quite nicely. Did well when hauling around E36s.

But, you would want a seriously good reason to use one of them such as stuck to original blocks and 2L limit while planning on being extremely competitive in your class and it would also want to be more than pride as a reward for winning races

Dave enlighten me on the S42 E36 engine? I'm not sure what you mean with the last paragraph? The op hasn't mentioned a class limit or such other regulations, but with only two grand for a 4-pot 16v to shift an E30 and no engine to start with. Surely the budget and making an E30 go surely only means a 6-pot

[Dave_M3]

The S42 was used in the early E36 supertouring cars when regulations cut the capacity to 2L engines.
The S14b20 was used at first in them but then replaced by the S42b20 which had about 280-320bhp.

He said he has to use a 4cylinder 16v and possibly (although he hasn't confirmed it yet) must use an engine thats original to the E30 chassis.

[e301988325i]

As he hasn't mentioned a race series or regulations, I put it down to his preference for a 4-16v. Was the S42 available in a road car or was it a pure race engine?

[Dave_M3]

S42 was a pure race engine. You'd probably just make it to the 'ring and do a few laps and it would be due a rebuild if you had it on the road


There was a Homlogation 318iS saloon alright with a little plack on it but it shared almost nothing with the STW car apart from the bare shell and the fact that one had a M42 and the other had an engine "based" on the M42.

[tony47492]

Ta for all your input gang. Common sense has finally slapped me round the back of my head There will be no Vauxhall XE, or Honda screamers,
PBMWC here I come

[jmc330i]

Dave enlighten me on the S42 E36 engine?

As Dave said, the S42 was based on the M42 block so the E36 could be raced when the regs changed to 2ltr (94-95ish??).
It had a different head to the M42 (I think it had all different valve train to cope with the revs), would rev to 8500-9000rpm, had ITBs (slide throttles not butterfly), 8 injectors, plenum was CF (like the S14) and it was dry sumped.

Theres a guy in Taunton with an S42 in a Mk2 Escort rally car, havent seen it running yet, but cant wait until I do