budget 'ring 325i, coilover conversion help

[driftmonkey]

My 89 325i se(4door) currently has koni rate adjustable shocks with some poo lowering springs, 195/45/15 yoko s drive tyres on the standard alloys, egay front and rear strut braces, grooved front discs with green stuff pads, braided brake lines, powerflow stainless exhaust that was just built as a standard replacement, and a kn filter.

Been to castle combe and to the ring, and want to make it better round track, so obviously will be stripping it all out, but suspension wise, will a set of new bushes and better springs cut the mustard? are thoses coilover conversion kits any good or am i going to have to shell out 1k for some gaz gold coilovers?
195 profile too narrow? do i need to go wider?
ive got a lsd to fit off a sport.
uprated anti roll bars?
adjustable top mounts?
4 pots?

merrits of each thing would be appreciated, obviously taking into account cost of items, i dont want to spend more than 2 grand, the closer to 500 quid the better!

cheers track vetrans

[Jhonno]

Gaz coilovers are £600 are they not?

You should be running 205/50 imo

Wouldn't bother with roll bars, just go stiffer on the springs for a track car..

Adj tops mounts are a must, E30's love some extra neg camber up front

Wouldn't bother for now.. Run some decent pads/discs/fluid (NOT Greenstuff)

Also if they are the egay strut braces I am thinking of, they will not be doing much for you

[RPM]

GAZ golds are proven on track and in competition, but there are also other cheaper alternatives that would improve your setup, including decent springs.

195 should be fine, PBMW run 195/50/15 Toyo R888's

4 pots are IMO not necessary but a decent pad upgrade to Pagids or Mintex would be a help.

ARB's I'd leave til the end as you can make a car handle very well with standard ones

If the strut braces are made of cheese then they wont be doing much, a good pair would be worthwhile

If you would like us to help you please drop me a line, info@raceperformancemodified.com and we can suggest whats best to do with your budget- including the items we dont sell! We can also set the car up and maybe help you out on a trackday?

Have a look in the traders section at some of what we have on offer

My 89 325i se(4door) currently has koni rate adjustable shocks with some poo lowering springs, 195/45/15 yoko s drive tyres on the standard alloys, egay front and rear strut braces, grooved front discs with green stuff pads, braided brake lines, powerflow stainless exhaust that was just built as a standard replacement, and a kn filter.

Been to castle combe and to the ring, and want to make it better round track, so obviously will be stripping it all out, but suspension wise, will a set of new bushes and better springs cut the mustard? are thoses coilover conversion kits any good or am i going to have to shell out 1k for some gaz gold coilovers?
195 profile too narrow? do i need to go wider?
ive got a lsd to fit off a sport.
uprated anti roll bars?
adjustable top mounts?
4 pots?

merrits of each thing would be appreciated, obviously taking into account cost of items, i dont want to spend more than 2 grand, the closer to 500 quid the better!

cheers track vetrans

[driftmonkey]

But changing to a coilover set up using those conversion tubes and some decent springs up front worth the 50 quid plus springs or not?

Is the expense of going to full on gaz coilovers going to make that much of a diference?

[UweM3]

But changing to a coilover set up using those conversion tubes and some decent springs up front worth the 50 quid plus springs or not?

Is the expense of going to full on gaz coilovers going to make that much of a diference?

It's not just the 50 quid for the conversion kit (which you get at GAZ BTW). With stock'ish dampers you will be limited on spring rates you can run. Keep in mind the usual Koni or Bilstein damper is used with stock or lowering kits. You can't just slap a 600lbs front spring in and expect it to work.
I have a set of 400lbs springs sitting on my shelf going cheap.
This is a far as I would dare to go with your shocks.
And any harder springs than this will be a real PIA for a daily drive IMHO

[driftmonkey]

The adjustable konis i have fitted at the front are the top adjustable ones, screw type, not click.
Its not an issue about being a daily drive as i have afew other cars i drive, aslong as i can drive it to the ring.

[djs325]

After hitting the 'Ring for the first time this weekend, I would apply pretty much the same logic to preparation and upgrade as I would any other E30 for track work.

Brakes:
-The first place you should be spending money, and plenty of it!
-Braided lines are a must, these are going for 20% off at Demon-Tweeks right now. Not sure if they are UK street legal, but check them out. You'll want the E30 316-325 ABS model, this has all 6 lines (2 front 4 rear); SBW0012-6.
-Recommend the E32 7 Series Master Cylinder upgrade. 25.4mm bore, stiffer pedal with more 'stomp control'. Also gives you peace of mind that your MC is in good nick. BMW Pn. 34 31 1 156 643, ATE Pn. 02.2125-2802.3, FTE Pn. H25914.0.1, make sure it's for an up to 1988 model.
-Decent quality rotors, slotted maybe (not all the way to the edge) but steer clear of cross-drilled. Buy a reputable brand that people say nice things about.
-Pad choice depends on the kind of track work being undertaken. For the 'Ring, it would seem that fast-road pads are best as it's not hard on brakes (they aren't used that often or that hard). Would recommend PFC Z-Rated but no longer available. Ferodo DS2500, HAWK DTC, Pagid or Ferodo would be next on the list of brands to seek out. For short circuit work, with more brake work, you might want a more race oriented pad, e.g. PFC01 or 06, Ferodo DS3000, Pagid RS29 etc.
-Use good quality fluid, minimum DOT4, preferably DOT5.1; a racing fluid might be overkill and will require more frequent bleeding.
-Backing plates, ducting and brake ducts are fairly serious, but if going the whole hog you might want them. Check the net.
-And in closing, make sure all your calipers are in top shape. You can rebuild them with BMW, ATE or FTE repair kits; or better still, use stainless steel pistons and replace the rubber bushes solid brake guides from BimmerWorld.

Suspension:
-Replace all the rubber bits, the PowerFlex kits are your new best friends. Offset control arm bushes sharpen the steering, and solid rear subframe and diff mounts stop the rear axle walking all over the place. Takes a lot of slop out, but you have to drive better to go faster, if that makes sense.
-Also included here are engine and transmission mounts. If these break you are in for a world of hurt. Reinforced aluminum cups aren't a bad idea either.
-When replacing bushes, fit adjustable rear trailing arm bushes, this helps dial in the correct toe & camber for the back end.
-Dampers can cost a small amount of money or squillions. Decide what direction you want to go, and choose a damper/spring package that suits your budget and the vehicle package (weight, ride height, track/street balance).
-Adjustable top mounts for the front are critical to get the wheel alignment and contact patch sorted properly. Go to a solid (spherical) mount if you want to sacrifice comfort for control. Use a reinforcement plate on the rear top mount to stop premature chassis failure.
-Don't drop too much ride height out of the car, as the E30 suspension can get pretty funky in compression. You'll also save your exhaust and floorpan some nasty scrapes.
-The standard M-Technic Anti-Roll Bars (20mm front & 14.5mm rear) are perfect for most track/street cars. Replace all the links and bushes, preferably with poly (e.g. Powerflex). First upgrade step can also be a 16mm rear bar, go adjustable for some more fiddling.
-When you want to take the next step, look at coil over fronts with some form of adjustment, with a matching set of rear adjustable dampers.
-I'd avoid coil-over rears. This sends all the rear axle stress through the damper mounting points, which were not designed for this purpose. Have a look at the amount of reinforcement near the original spring seats to see what I mean, and compare it to the damper top mounting point. The trailing arm connecting point is also only in single shear, again not brilliant.

Steering:
-The E30 racks are ok, but woefully long in the ratio. E36/Z3 rack swaps are well documented and an excellent upgrade. Ensure you have good condition tie-rods.
-A good 3 spoke suede or alcantara steering wheel will make the E30 a lot nicer to drive. 350mm recommended.
-If you want to lower the column angle, the mounting bolts can be removed (painus in the ainus), and spacers installed.
-Get a shop to do a complete 4 wheel alignment to sort everything out, preferably with weight in the driver seat.

Interior:
-Don't go too crazy if you have to drive long distances in the thing. That 5kg you save could be the difference between a bearable drive and bleeding ears/shattered spine/blurred vision.
-Fit an FIA standard seat, seat mounts (preferably FIA approved and fixed mounted) and a minimum 4-point harness, 6 point recommended. Add at least a 1kg handheld fire extinguisher, possible a battery cutoff as well.
-Fit a short shifter, don't go nuts, but the stuff from UUC is top notch if you want the best there is. Z3 1.9 Lever is usually enough, replace all the plastic/rubber bits to ensure all is nice and tight.
-Get rid of all the sh*t that's rolling around on the floor, stuff that can fly around or make annoying noises when you're caning it
-Roll cages are recommended for serious work, but if you fit one you should wear a helmet at all times, as head -> roll bar collisions are frequent, and not as nice as head -> squidgy stuff.

Under the hood:
-I wouldn't recommend spending much on the motor until you've got the chassis sorted. This excludes any maintenance or peace of mind work. Make sure the water pump, hoses, and radiator are in good nick, plenty of oil and no leaks on any fluid systems.
-Clean the air filter frequently
-Fresh spark plugs and can make a world of difference if not done frequently enough. BOSCH WR8LP is the 325i plug, quite nice actually, and cheap too.
-Make sure the exhaust meets all the noise requirements at all tracks, and is properly secured so that it doesn't dislodge on a kerb.

Driveline:
-Standard OEM clutches are decently priced and well specced for the standard HP/torque levels, and nice for town driving too.
-Gearbox needs fresh oil but that's about it. Fit short shifter and replace all plastic/rubber bits as mentioned before.
-Differential should have a ratio that suits most if not all tracks.
-A limited slip diff (if you don't already have one) will transform the handling. As per gearbox, make sure it has plenty of the right oil and is in good nick.
-Standard tailshaft and driveshafts are pretty good, just check all the rubber couplings and boots for wear and tear.

Body:
-Touch nothing! This is a fantastic way to blow off rich boys when you fly past with a 20+ year sh*tbox.
-Fit some tow hooks, possibly soft straps as these poke out less and don't snag your legs on the way past.
-Aero? You'd have to be joking...

End Rant. I had the chance to drive a Production Spec E36 M3 on the 'Ring that was almost completely stock. Basically braided lines, better pads, short shifter, Michelin PS2s, fantastic dampers & springs, and a lower diff ratio for the straights. Took every input without protest. The standard engine output is more than enough to get someone into trouble, so the less than 300HP was appreciated. Aim for something like that, and you'll feel confident every time you head out on the road/track/Ring.

[MarkT]

After hitting the 'Ring for the first time this weekend, I would apply pretty much the same logic to preparation and upgrade as I would any other E30 for track work.

Brakes:
-The first place you should be spending money, and plenty of it!
-Braided lines are a must, these are going for 20% off at Demon-Tweeks right now. Not sure if they are UK street legal, but check them out. You'll want the E30 316-325 ABS model, this has all 6 lines (2 front 4 rear); SBW0012-6.
-Recommend the E32 7 Series Master Cylinder upgrade. 25.4mm bore, stiffer pedal with more 'stomp control'. Also gives you peace of mind that your MC is in good nick. BMW Pn. 34 31 1 156 643, ATE Pn. 02.2125-2802.3, FTE Pn. H25914.0.1, make sure it's for an up to 1988 model.
-Decent quality rotors, slotted maybe (not all the way to the edge) but steer clear of cross-drilled. Buy a reputable brand that people say nice things about.
-Pad choice depends on the kind of track work being undertaken. For the 'Ring, it would seem that fast-road pads are best as it's not hard on brakes (they aren't used that often or that hard). Would recommend PFC Z-Rated but no longer available. Ferodo DS2500, HAWK DTC, Pagid or Ferodo would be next on the list of brands to seek out. For short circuit work, with more brake work, you might want a more race oriented pad, e.g. PFC01 or 06, Ferodo DS3000, Pagid RS29 etc.
-Use good quality fluid, minimum DOT4, preferably DOT5.1; a racing fluid might be overkill and will require more frequent bleeding.
-Backing plates, ducting and brake ducts are fairly serious, but if going the whole hog you might want them. Check the net.
-And in closing, make sure all your calipers are in top shape. You can rebuild them with BMW, ATE or FTE repair kits; or better still, use stainless steel pistons and replace the rubber bushes solid brake guides from BimmerWorld.

Suspension:
-Replace all the rubber bits, the PowerFlex kits are your new best friends. Offset control arm bushes sharpen the steering, and solid rear subframe and diff mounts stop the rear axle walking all over the place. Takes a lot of slop out, but you have to drive better to go faster, if that makes sense.
-Also included here are engine and transmission mounts. If these break you are in for a world of hurt. Reinforced aluminum cups aren't a bad idea either.
-When replacing bushes, fit adjustable rear trailing arm bushes, this helps dial in the correct toe & camber for the back end.
-Dampers can cost a small amount of money or squillions. Decide what direction you want to go, and choose a damper/spring package that suits your budget and the vehicle package (weight, ride height, track/street balance).
-Adjustable top mounts for the front are critical to get the wheel alignment and contact patch sorted properly. Go to a solid (spherical) mount if you want to sacrifice comfort for control. Use a reinforcement plate on the rear top mount to stop premature chassis failure.
-Don't drop too much ride height out of the car, as the E30 suspension can get pretty funky in compression. You'll also save your exhaust and floorpan some nasty scrapes.
-The standard M-Technic Anti-Roll Bars (20mm front & 14.5mm rear) are perfect for most track/street cars. Replace all the links and bushes, preferably with poly (e.g. Powerflex). First upgrade step can also be a 16mm rear bar, go adjustable for some more fiddling.
-When you want to take the next step, look at coil over fronts with some form of adjustment, with a matching set of rear adjustable dampers.
-I'd avoid coil-over rears. This sends all the rear axle stress through the damper mounting points, which were not designed for this purpose. Have a look at the amount of reinforcement near the original spring seats to see what I mean, and compare it to the damper top mounting point. The trailing arm connecting point is also only in single shear, again not brilliant.

Steering:
-The E30 racks are ok, but woefully long in the ratio. E36/Z3 rack swaps are well documented and an excellent upgrade. Ensure you have good condition tie-rods.
-A good 3 spoke suede or alcantara steering wheel will make the E30 a lot nicer to drive. 350mm recommended.
-If you want to lower the column angle, the mounting bolts can be removed (painus in the ainus), and spacers installed.
-Get a shop to do a complete 4 wheel alignment to sort everything out, preferably with weight in the driver seat.

Interior:
-Don't go too crazy if you have to drive long distances in the thing. That 5kg you save could be the difference between a bearable drive and bleeding ears/shattered spine/blurred vision.
-Fit an FIA standard seat, seat mounts (preferably FIA approved and fixed mounted) and a minimum 4-point harness, 6 point recommended. Add at least a 1kg handheld fire extinguisher, possible a battery cutoff as well.
-Fit a short shifter, don't go nuts, but the stuff from UUC is top notch if you want the best there is. Z3 1.9 Lever is usually enough, replace all the plastic/rubber bits to ensure all is nice and tight.
-Get rid of all the sh*t that's rolling around on the floor, stuff that can fly around or make annoying noises when you're caning it
-Roll cages are recommended for serious work, but if you fit one you should wear a helmet at all times, as head -> roll bar collisions are frequent, and not as nice as head -> squidgy stuff.

Under the hood:
-I wouldn't recommend spending much on the motor until you've got the chassis sorted. This excludes any maintenance or peace of mind work. Make sure the water pump, hoses, and radiator are in good nick, plenty of oil and no leaks on any fluid systems.
-Clean the air filter frequently
-Fresh spark plugs and can make a world of difference if not done frequently enough. BOSCH WR8LP is the 325i plug, quite nice actually, and cheap too.
-Make sure the exhaust meets all the noise requirements at all tracks, and is properly secured so that it doesn't dislodge on a kerb.

Driveline:
-Standard OEM clutches are decently priced and well specced for the standard HP/torque levels, and nice for town driving too.
-Gearbox needs fresh oil but that's about it. Fit short shifter and replace all plastic/rubber bits as mentioned before.
-Differential should have a ratio that suits most if not all tracks.
-A limited slip diff (if you don't already have one) will transform the handling. As per gearbox, make sure it has plenty of the right oil and is in good nick.
-Standard tailshaft and driveshafts are pretty good, just check all the rubber couplings and boots for wear and tear.

Body:
-Touch nothing! This is a fantastic way to blow off rich boys when you fly past with a 20+ year sh*tbox.
-Fit some tow hooks, possibly soft straps as these poke out less and don't snag your legs on the way past.
-Aero? You'd have to be joking...

End Rant. I had the chance to drive a Production Spec E36 M3 on the 'Ring that was almost completely stock. Basically braided lines, better pads, short shifter, Michelin PS2s, fantastic dampers & springs, and a lower diff ratio for the straights. Took every input without protest. The standard engine output is more than enough to get someone into trouble, so the less than 300HP was appreciated. Aim for something like that, and you'll feel confident every time you head out on the road/track/Ring.

Fantastic advice there!

[the_bear]

DriftMonkey, is this you?

http://www.nurburgringphotos.com/detail ... &pid=50253

[Jhonno]

I would not run a 25mm master cylinder with standard calipers!

[N00b]

I would not run a 25mm master cylinder with standard calipers!

Can you add more details about why and what you would choose to replace it with for the less knowledgeable among us please?

[BadDave]

I would not run a 25mm master cylinder with standard calipers!

Can you add more details about why and what you would choose to replace it with for the less knowledgeable among us please?

Mainly because it's too big for a standard caliper.
It's more suited to a set of 4 or 6pot calipers with a total piston size greater than that of the standard setup.

The next logical master cylinder would be one from an E30 M3 whish is 23.something millimeter's in diameter, although this too is more ideally suited to larger diamater piston areas in the caliper.

[N00b]

I would not run a 25mm master cylinder with standard calipers!

Can you add more details about why and what you would choose to replace it with for the less knowledgeable among us please?

Mainly because it's too big for a standard caliper.
It's more suited to a set of 4 or 6pot calipers with a total piston size greater than that of the standard setup.

The next logical master cylinder would be one from an E30 M3 whish is 23.something millimeter's in diameter, although this too is more ideally suited to larger diamater piston areas in the caliper.

So as I'm running standard calipers, I should stick with the original MC? It feels a little dead to me, but then it's 20 years old so it could just be a worn part and not the spec of the part itself.

[BadDave]

Can you add more details about why and what you would choose to replace it with for the less knowledgeable among us please?

Mainly because it's too big for a standard caliper.
It's more suited to a set of 4 or 6pot calipers with a total piston size greater than that of the standard setup.

The next logical master cylinder would be one from an E30 M3 whish is 23.something millimeter's in diameter, although this too is more ideally suited to larger diamater piston areas in the caliper.

So as I'm running standard calipers, I should stick with the original MC? It feels a little dead to me, but then it's 20 years old so it could just be a worn part and not the spec of the part itself.

I'd be inclined to ensure the current brake components are in a good servicable condition before looking at upgrading .
Make sure the calipers are sliding as they should, no sticking pistons, decent disks and some trackday pads, brake hoses are in good serviceable condition(not cracked, bulging under pressure etc).
Once all of the above have been checked,and/or replaced as necessary, THEN think about possible upgrades to the system, as without knowing if the current setup is in fine fettle, any upgrades may not be as effective as you initially hope they will be.


As an aside.

I use E38 728i Brembo's with a stock m/c with no problems, and currently don't feel the need to move up to a larger one.

HTH

[driftmonkey]

yup thats me, my friend keeps finding more pics all the time, think Ive got about 10 now.
Well my car rolls loads, and the brakes are ok, but not great, id like abit more bite.

[the_bear]

Has anyone found a pic of you going straight on at Adenauer Forst?....

[N00b]

I'd be inclined to ensure the current brake components are in a good servicable condition before looking at upgrading .
Make sure the calipers are sliding as they should, no sticking pistons, decent disks and some trackday pads, brake hoses are in good serviceable condition(not cracked, bulging under pressure etc).
Once all of the above have been checked,and/or replaced as necessary, THEN think about possible upgrades to the system, as without knowing if the current setup is in fine fettle, any upgrades may not be as effective as you initially hope they will be.

Thanks for the reply mate.
My discs+pads are new all round, the calipers have been greased up and checked to make sure they move freely and the fluid has been changed. I want to replace all of the brake lines next but as the subject of changing the master cylinder seems to crop up often I wondered what the deal was re benefits/drawbacks.

[c6mby]

Has anyone found a pic of you going straight on at Adenauer Forst?....

id like to see that also

[djs325]

The E32 MC has proven exceptionally reliable and perfect for all the E30s we run here in OZ on the standard brake calipers; as the ratio front to rear stays the same.

[driftmonkey]

haha, I went straight as I wasnt driving round the 'ring like big girl............
I'm still tempted with a coilover conversion tube set up