Best engine? e30 Touring, 328i or 335i? what spec donor car?

[RotE30]

Hello All,
I have been searching for a donor touring to begin my project for bloody ages now and i think i may have found one.

however i have a few questions;
1. 1987-1992, any preference?
2. is it better/easier to do an engine swap if you have a car with the electric everything or nothing? (loom - windows, ABS, roof, AC etc)
3. which is the best engine to go for a 328i or a 335i for power and economy? (do they go together? - i cant fit a new 330d wihtout an electronics degree can i?!)
4. final question - does a 325i make a better donor than a 316i - is there any differences for a donor - arms, brakes, auto, manual etc?

Thanks a lot for your input - i geues my real question is whats the best donor and whats the best engine? Anyone done a conversion, any regrets?

[Morat]

1. No, not really. Rust Free is all that counts.
2. No, the engine loom is separate.
3. For power and economy you're probably looking at LPG.
4. There shouldn't be much difference between 1.6 and 2.5 tourings in the chassis department apart from the front springs.

[RotE30]

Great thanks for getting the ball rolling Morat, one more question, do you use the keys of the E30 or the engine - what about the alarm / immobiliser?

[jmc330i]

do you use the keys of the E30 or the engine - what about the alarm / immobiliser?

You will use the E30 keys.
You should be able to swap engines without touching any alarm/immobiliser wiring that is already fitted to your E30 as thats all done on the car loom, not the engine loom.
My security is as it was before I swapped engines.

If you go for an engine thats from a 1995 onwards car, it will have BMWs EWS security system, in which case you will need the ignition key, ECU and EWS module all from the same donor car to get the engine to start. You dont use the key from the donor vehicle, just the chip inside it.

Out of your engine choices, only the E36 328i and M3 will be affected by this.

[toby]

People disagree on what is 'best'. Some people love the torque of the 3.5 but it is heavy, both physically and on fuel.

The 328i has a better balance of power and economy than the 3.5 litre.

A 325i makes a fair donor - you 'just' rotate the existing gearbox to get it to fit the engine.

With a four cylinder touring the gearbox will fit bolt straight in (with a particular 320i gearshift) and apparently a few other thing nice up line up nicely.

Some tourings have the same running gear as the 325i (bigger front struts and discs, rear discs to name a few differences)

A well sorted original 325i would be enough for the road but a 2.8 is interesting but it comes with the associated headache of a modified vehicle though.

Swapping in a modern diesel would be quite a mission...

[RotE30]

So if the car loom remains unchanged, should the electric windows, power s.roof, cruise control systems etc on the E30 be totally unaffected then? sorry i feel like a right newbie here!
So really a car with no electronics will be no easier to convert than one with all the electric toys?
Interesting....
I was going to settle for a simple E30 with no electrics, dents, rust and saggy headlining, but now I think I would like to continue my long long search for a good e30 with all the power toys... then do the swap. Thanks for the advice - back to piston heads, ebay and the zone for sale section then.... will i ever find a good donor!!

[daimlerman]

M52 is probably the 'thinking mans' choice.
Modern engine with good performance and reasonable economy.
All the information is in the M50 thread at the head of the page,M50/M52 are the same engine with different crank/rods/inlet manifold/ECU.
You will have to overcome several problems,exhaust manifold,matching the engine loom to the car loom and dealing with EWS.
1)Exhaust.M52 sits at a different angle to M20 and has different shaped exhaust ports.General view is that the M52 manifolds can be modified to clear E30 steering rack and ARB,you need to be a competent welder/fabricator,or know one!
2)A decent auto electrician can sort this.
3)Engine Wont Start.You require from your donor E36 all the bits and pieces assosiated with this system.Start with grabbing all the keys for the transponder hidden inside.The transponder talks to the induction loop fitted around the ignition key slot,so you need that as well.Follow the green wires from this and take the gadget that they go to as well,and the control unit that this is wired to.Your auto electrician will then be able to get the system to work.Have a hunt through the last few pages of beemerlad's thread for a photo of all these bits.DO NOT LET YOUR DONOR GO until you are certain you have ALL the bits!

[RotE30]

I too preferred the idea of a 328i esp with the 210bhp being easily on tap

the 325i - just to clarify, you rotate the e30 325i gearbox and it fits the e36 engine?
the four cylinder cars are slightly different and the e36 gear box will bolt straight in? - whats the details on this 320i - nicely jazz?

thanks

[RotE30]

”acomes with the associated headache of a modified vehicle though.”a ”“ you mean insurance wise? Part of the reason I want to do the conversion is the project ”“ I want something to work on in my garage.

Welding no problem, Auto electrician will need sourcing.
I have space for my e30 and the donor so will probably keep the donor till the e30’s running!!! (maybe put the e30 325i into the e36 for trackdays? Hahaha forget that jesus, I don’t even have either yet!)

[toby]

Not just insurance but parts, non standard fitting. Modified vehicles and headaches - with the 3.5 M30 engine it looks like you need to take the engine or the rad out to take the distributor cap off. With the 2.8 M52, can you still get the wiper motor out to regrease the innards with a huge engine in there? These are just examples, and I'm not trying to put you off at all. Why would I since I love reading about and seeing engine conversions. Changing brake servos and endlessly adjusting things until they are just right... If you want to tinker that's al fine though, as long as you have the patience.

I don't think that for some that have done conversions are actually bold enough to admit to regrets.

'Why do so few people tune M20s?' is probably behind my comment that modified vehicles can be a headache (sometimes).

[daimlerman]

Gearbox you will need to take advice on,I am using a getrang 240 from a 318 with my M50,but I am not sure what it's maximum power capacity is.
The problem here is the engine angle,using a 'box from a six cylinder E30 will make gear linkage difficult,the smaller 'box fis straight on and the BMW parts bin will give all the bits you need.
E36 comes with the later ZF 'box,much stronger,but I have no idea of the linkage requirements to fit E30!

[jmc330i]

I too preferred the idea of a 328i esp with the 210bhp being easily on tap

That would be my choice if I was doing it again - E36 328i motor I mean.

the 325i - just to clarify, you rotate the e30 325i gearbox and it fits the e36 engine?

The E30 325i gearbox will fit the E36 325i and 328i motor, but only if rotated slightly, but then this leads to linkage problems for the gear stick.

the four cylinder cars are slightly different and the e36 gear box will bolt straight in? - whats the details on this 320i

The E30 318iS (M42) gearbox will bolt up to the E36 325i/328i motor using the E30 clutch and flywheel (and I think the gear linkage from an E30 320i) but Im not sure what propshaft is needed.
Apparently the E30 318i (M40) gearbox can be used as well - Id like this confirmed as I have one sat doing nothing.

[RotE30]

JMC330i you are correct, Reading E30 24v.com

"E30 M3 propshaft purchased. This is necessary to fit the e36 ZF gearbox. Length is the same [as the e30 325i] but the M3 has the larger PCD prop donut that's required to mate upto the e36 ZF gearbox.
"
More on http://www.e3024v.com/project5.htm - excellent site - Just doesnt help on the early stages of buying an E30...

So by the sounds of it, i will have to buy bits whatever E30 i buy be it 318 or 325i... but the 318 would be a bit better as the gbox clutch and flyweehl etc fromt he E30 fits.. I assume the newer E36 gbox clutch flywheel etc would be better though?

JMC you mention 'doing it again' I take it you have e30 with a 3litre?

Thanks agian all. blown away with the help.

[jmc330i]

JMC330i you are correct, Reading E30 24v.com

"E30 M3 propshaft purchased. This is necessary to fit the e36 ZF gearbox. Length is the same [as the e30 325i] but the M3 has the larger PCD prop donut that's required to mate upto the e36 ZF gearbox.

The E30 M3 prop is needed if you use the E36 M3 5spd or 328i 5spd gearbox (ZF box mentioned above), but then you need to change the diff as well.

Im not sure what prop is needed if you use the E30 318i/318iS gearbox - hopefully daimlerman can shed some light???

JMC you mention 'doing it again' I take it you have e30 with a 3litre?

Yup, the E36 M3 3.0ltr.

http://www.e3024v.com/board/index.php?topic=24.0

[daimlerman]

Using E30 M40/M42 'box(I believe that these are the same)the standard E30 prop fits.
I have reservations about putting 220 plus bhp through one,though!
Advantage to using this 'box is well documented,lets you use stock E30 diffs etc.
You do require M20 fly,clutch and starter,of course!

[RotE30]

So in conclusion”¦ AS I fear that I am getting way ahead of myself.
1. Appreicate the time and continual effort required.
2. Buy an E30 no Rust (ANY model, but preferably one with electrics, right colour and good interior)

Thinking to myself”¦ The ideal setup would be what?

SPEC 1
Car ”“ E30 Touring
Engine ”“ 328i E36 with security EWS bits and engine loom
Gear box ”“ ZF
Prop shaft ”“ E30 M3
Diff ”“Ratio?
Clutch/Fly
Gear linkage ”“

PRO ”“ Strong modern Gearbox
CON ”“


SPEC 2
Car ”“ E30 Touring
Engine ”“ 328i E36 with security EWS bits and engine loom
Gear box ”“ E30 M40/42
Prop shaft ”“ E30
Diff ”“ Standard E30 Ratio?
Clutch/fly ”“ M20
Gear linkage ”“ ?

PRO - lets you use stock E30 diffs
CON ”“ weak prop shaft?

[daimlerman]

Spec 2's weak point IMO is the gearbox,not the prop.Gearshift linkage is 320 support bracket and selector,nice touch is Z3 1.9 lever,diff ratio depends on use,but 3.91 to 3.45 is available.

[RotE30]

Thinking to myself”¦ The ideal setup would be what?

SPEC 1
Car ”“ E30 Touring
Engine ”“ 328i E36 with security EWS bits and engine loom
Gear box ”“ ZF
Prop shaft ”“ E30 M3
Diff ”“Ratio?
Clutch/Fly
Gear linkage ”“

PRO ”“ Strong modern Gearbox
CON ”“


SPEC 2
Car ”“ E30 Touring
Engine ”“ 328i E36 with security EWS bits and engine loom
Gear box ”“ E30 M40/42
Prop shaft ”“ E30
Diff ”“ Standard E30 - 3.91 to 3.45 Ratio
Clutch/fly ”“ M20
Gear linkage ”“ 320 support bracket and selector,nice touch is Z3 1.9 lever
PRO - lets you use stock E30 diffs
CON ”“ weak prop shaft ”“ 1 vote, Weak gearbox ”“ 1 vote

[toby]

SPEC 1

CON - sourcing an E30 M3 propshaft and associated cost and hassle

If you use stock 325i gearbox, you wouldn't need an E30 M3 prop shaft (Although it has to be modified to fit as I mentioned earlier).

I think people sometimes mix the E30 prop shaft with the E36 prop shaft to give something of appropriate length.

SPEC 2

I've never heard of these gearboxes or prop shafts suffering at all even with turbos and engine swaps installed.

[RotE30]

So spec 2 seems the way forward! when I finally manage to get a car i will start a project diary and try and sort an exact shopping list !! thanks a lot for your help, much appreciated.

[fuzzy]

i obviously chose other in the options . cosworth yb is the conversion to do.

[RotE30]

I just won a touring on the bay! phase one is complete!
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... K:MEWAX:IT

Its a bit shabby but a good colour, no rot and great interior, oh and i think its a bargain.
Before anyone says it, chrome strip, wheels, headlining are destined for the bin!

Tried searching, I find the search functionality pretty limited on this forum, anyone point me in the direction of a decent headlining replacement source?

Getting it this saturday if alls as promised. What do you think? Good donor?

[daimlerman]

Looks good for the money,you would have to re-new most of the suspension anyway to do a proper job,headlining is going to be your biggest headache.This is held all around it's perimiter by either the ajacent trim or glue.The thing it's self is a fibreboard tray,all the existing fabric and glue will need removing before any attempt to re-trim is made.
There was a zoner who has done this and took photos,have a rumage through the photo gallery,I cannot at the moment recall tha guy's name,but someone younger than me will!
The real problem area is the front,around the sunvisors.
May well pay you to make friends with a car trimming expert....
If the car's engine/gearbox is still fit to use,it should make £250....

[jmc330i]

SPEC 1

CON - sourcing an E30 M3 propshaft and suitable diff for the gearbox (something between 2.93:1 and 3.25:1). Both will bump the cost up quite a bit.

You can use the E36 328i prop with the E30 centre bearing fitted.

SPEC 2

PRO - Your new touring will have a suitable ratio diff (although its probably an open diff) for the M40 box.
You can rob the flywheel from the your new touring, but budget for a new clutch.

CON - Not too many really, only finding the bits you need like gearbox and prop, which will be much cheaper than those needed for SPEC 1.
There are a few 318i turbos around and they dont seem to bother the gearbox, so its shouldnt be too much of a problem. The prop will be fine also.

Using E30 M40/M42 'box(I believe that these are the same)the standard E30 prop fits.

The M40/M42 bellhousings differ slightly from each other, with the M42 bellhousing staying 'wider' for longer (around the flywheel area) before it tapers down to the rest of the gearbox (if that makes any sense at all ).
We tried the M40 box with the M50 flywheel/clutch but that wasnt going to work, but I believe the M42 will.

So the standard M40 318i prop fits?