B7's C2.7 Build - FINITO!!!!!!

[SUMPCRACKER]

It seems the timing is 180 out.

Its easy to get wrong as the crank pulley turns twice to the cam, so the marks still line up, but cyl6 will spark instead of 1 and nothing happens as its valve is open.

[SUMPCRACKER]

Jon- as long as its exactly 180 out no damage will be done, apart from a spark in the wrong place.

[Jesus325iTouring]

Trev,Sorry to see if your having such problems

I can't really add anything to help as I'm not much of an engine expert,except,having gotten munerous engines running that appear to be dead simply by heating the spark plugs.
I know this seems like a shit idea but it has worked for me time and again oddly,I do admit this is on small engines from mowers etc.
More recently,I picked up a mower that had sat for years,it had good spark and fuel but would not fire Heated the plug.........bang...fired right up.
Before anyone says it was just a wet plug,I had previously dried the plug several times still to no avail.
You'd have to be quick with 6 pots to do,but if Si was helping it'd only be 3 each.
Like I said,shit idea,but so simple it must be worth trying.

[Simon13]

theres a V notch on the front crankseal cover on M20's. A line on the crank to set to TDC. As said theres a dowl for the pulley to locate correctly to. Then there is a timing mark on the pulley and another on the lower timing cover. All 4 marks line up bang on.

Me and Trev stripped it down and checked it. Engine turns over fine on a ratchet no different to any other M20. I'm ready to eat my hat, but i'd like to think me and trev could check it properly!

Jon mains are 60mm the bigs are 45mm. Trevor didn't change the mains as there wasn't any wear to them. He just was picky and fitted new bigs. They are just coloured Red and blue in +0.25 As the crank has had a 0.25mm regrind. One set of bigs goes on the caps one set on the rods. I can't remember which way is which

Roger that isn't a bad idea at all imo. Makes alot of sense to me Especially at this stage! Best thing to do would be swap a set over from say my engine when i arrived, they'd be proper hot then and wouldn't cool right down by the time you'd fit them in

[SUMPCRACKER]

It can still be 180 out with all the mrks lined up , easy way to check is to reverse the plug leeds.

1-6
2-5
3-4

[e30topless]

It can still be 180 out with all the mrks lined up , easy way to check is to reverse the plug leeds.

1-6
2-5
3-4

if it's 180 out valves would eventually make contact with pistons and it wouldn't turn over by hand ..

[DanThe]

Ahhhhh..... The good old 180° debate

[e30topless]

just had a brain wave ! thinking back to one I built earlier this year I had the same symptoms

trev/simon have you got the crank sensor and pulse sensor plugs mixed up ? where they plug in under the diagnostic plug ?
they are both identical and fit each other as you will know already,

a long shot but definatly worth checking

[B7]

just had a brain wave ! thinking back to one I built earlier this year I had the same symptoms

trev/simon have you got the crank sensor and pulse sensor plugs mixed up ? where they plug in under the diagnostic plug ?
they are both identical and fit each other as you will know already,

a long shot but definatly worth checking

Tried that! Also it wouldn't fire if they were swapped. It's deffo firing.

[cass1_5503]

Sorry to hear this Tevor, have you tried a different CPS?

No, but this one was perfect on my old engine and if it was kaput, surley it wouldn't fire at all?

i had problems with my cps the car would just about start but would run like a bag of shi7 and not rev, changed the cps and all was well so might be worth swapping with another one to try it.

[Jon_Bmw]

theres a V notch on the front crankseal cover on M20's. A line on the crank to set to TDC. As said theres a dowl for the pulley to locate correctly to. Then there is a timing mark on the pulley and another on the lower timing cover. All 4 marks line up bang on.

Me and Trev stripped it down and checked it. Engine turns over fine on a ratchet no different to any other M20. I'm ready to eat my hat, but i'd like to think me and trev could check it properly!

Jon mains are 60mm the bigs are 45mm. Trevor didn't change the mains as there wasn't any wear to them. He just was picky and fitted new bigs. They are just coloured Red and blue in +0.25 As the crank has had a 0.25mm regrind. One set of bigs goes on the caps one set on the rods. I can't remember which way is which

Roger that isn't a bad idea at all imo. Makes alot of sense to me Especially at this stage! Best thing to do would be swap a set over from say my engine when i arrived, they'd be proper hot then and wouldn't cool right down by the time you'd fit them in

Agreed Simon, by the way, i'm just suggesting ideas that are probably random and not questioning either of your spannering abilities!

I just wondered that you seem to have checked everything and the only thing that looked unclear in the whole thread was the big end bearings. Presumably they are coloured because there must be minor differences in the Rod and the cap otherwise they would be the same? If you were to put the Rod bearing in the cap and visa versa with the cap you might get more friction as the bearing won't be sat right. Could explain why you burnt out one starter motor and it is going through batteries. Can't explain why you can turn it over by hand though.

[SUMPCRACKER]

It can still be 180 out with all the mrks lined up , easy way to check is to reverse the plug leeds.

1-6
2-5
3-4

if it's 180 out valves would eventually make contact with pistons and it wouldn't turn over by hand ..

No.
The crank turns twice to the cam, nothing will hit but it will spark on the open valve cylinder.

[gooner1]

Trev, Si, can,t help with any mechanical expertise but can understand your frustration .
Felt like torching my mare with all the trouble i had. In my case it was all down to my own
stupidity, but learnt a lot from my feckups.
So, to conclude, please assept this large dollop of encouragement, don,t even think about giving up. If you lot give up, what chance do wingnuts like me stand.
Take it personal, get the mofo sorted. Then cane it.

[Simon13]

I may have to eat my hat Just need to check Trevs car to be sure.

The plug swapping lead idea may just help to see if it will run. If so then the drama of sorting it properly!

[tylerma]

I may have to eat my hat

salt and pepper at the ready Si lol

Trev hope you get it sorted sharpish matey

[tomson]

The plug swapping lead idea may just help to see if it will run. If so then the drama of sorting it properly!

It wont be that bad Si, no more work really that a cambelt change!

[SUMPCRACKER]

Less work, as the belt doesn't have to be removed, so the bottom pulley and cover can stay on,
Only the tensioner need to be undone.

You need the pistons at half mast or near and rotate the cam 180.
(I know Simon and trev know their way around an M20 btw, dont mean sound patronising )

[bss325i]

I may have to eat my hat Just need to check Trevs car to be sure.

The plug swapping lead idea may just help to see if it will run. If so then the drama of sorting it properly!

Rotor arm pointing the wrong way?

180 deg out?

[town325i]

is there a rotor arm in it it should fire if everything is conected up right and you no its right is the coil lead going to the right socket on the cap

[SPADGE]

It can still be 180 out with all the mrks lined up , easy way to check is to reverse the plug leeds.

1-6
2-5
3-4

if it's 180 out valves would eventually make contact with pistons and it wouldn't turn over by hand ..

Your wrong

Has anyone checked this valve timing yet as i suspect sumpcracker is right on the money.

[B7]

We are going to strip it to make sure. It all adds up I have to say.

[tomson]

Trev, I've just looked back through the thread and on page 8 your last photo of the block before you fitted the head shows cylinder number 1 at BDC. IIRC, from when I built my 2.7 to time them up correctly when rebuilding it should be at TDC so it is lookeng the timing could be out, thats if it went back together as the photos suggest anyway.......

Hope you get it sorted mate!

[e30topless]

It can still be 180 out with all the mrks lined up , easy way to check is to reverse the plug leeds.

1-6
2-5
3-4

if it's 180 out valves would eventually make contact with pistons and it wouldn't turn over by hand ..

Your wrong

Has anyone checked this valve timing yet as i suspect sumpcracker is right on the money.

you are right I am wrong !

but to get it back to where it should be, the head will need to come off ?


now that i think about it I know a guy that did this so i called him

he said when his timing was 180 out, his engine turned over on the starter really fast,and the compression test was shite

this would be due to it having no compression, valves open when pistons going back up ?

but simon has done a compression test and all seems fine ?

wish i was a bit nearer, I would love to try help out

[EThreezero]

Trev, I've just looked back through the thread and on page 8 your last photo of the block before you fitted the head shows cylinder number 1 at BDC. IIRC, from when I built my 2.7 to time them up correctly when rebuilding it should be at TDC so it is lookeng the timing could be out, thats if it went back together as the photos suggest anyway.......

Hope you get it sorted mate!

Yup i agree the last pic before it was all together showed it was at bdc as opposed to the pic at the top of page 8 which had the cylinders at tdc. Hope you crack it mate.

[B7]

Trev, I've just looked back through the thread and on page 8 your last photo of the block before you fitted the head shows cylinder number 1 at BDC. IIRC, from when I built my 2.7 to time them up correctly when rebuilding it should be at TDC so it is lookeng the timing could be out, thats if it went back together as the photos suggest anyway.......

Hope you get it sorted mate!

If the slug had been at BDC we'd be picking bits of valve out of the piston crown by now.

Look at the last shot on that sequence. The line on the crank is almost lined up with the v notch timing marking. I have spun it over by hand a few times post belt tensioning. But the question is......................if the line was perfectly lined up in that shot, would the rotor arm be pointing? At No. 1 or No. 6???????????

Without stripping it we won't know as I need to see that line on the nose of the crank, perfectly lined up with the notch. Then I need to refit the rotor and the dis cap and see where it's pointing. But to me........that aint pointing to No1 as we discovered on Si's car, No1 is at 4 oclock.

[tomson]

I'm sure you cant put the rotor arm on incorrectly as it only goes on one way on the pulley and the pulley has a dowel to make sure it goes on correctly..........

What e30topless says about the compression test not working if the timing is 180 out also seems right to me........

[B7]

I'm sure you cant put the rotor arm on incorrectly as it only goes on one way on the pulley and the pulley has a dowel to make sure it goes on correctly..........

What e30topless says about the compression test not working if the timing is 180 out also seems right to me........

No the rotor only goes on one way. But if the crank was 180 deg out....i.e. no.6 is firing instead of no. 1, Nothing would clash.

A compression test is done with all the plugs out. The gauge has a one way valve. You spin the engine over and the compression shows on the gauge. the fact it's 180 deg out is irrelavant. The valves are still opening and shutting. The gauge continues to read until you release the valve on the gauge.

If his compression was shite, he either had a bent valve of f*cked rings. end of.

[tomson]

Yes I know how compression test work but to have compression in any given cylinder both valves must be shut when the piston is on its compression stroke, coming back up to TDC, something you obviously have, would you still have this if the timing was 180 out? I wouldnt have thought so........

[adit]

We are going to strip it to make sure. It all adds up I have to say.

encouraging noises from the Reigate corner!

[e30topless]

I'm sure you cant put the rotor arm on incorrectly as it only goes on one way on the pulley and the pulley has a dowel to make sure it goes on correctly..........

What e30topless says about the compression test not working if the timing is 180 out also seems right to me........

No the rotor only goes on one way. But if the crank was 180 deg out....i.e. no.6 is firing instead of no. 1, Nothing would clash.

A compression test is done with all the plugs out. The gauge has a one way valve. You spin the engine over and the compression shows on the gauge. the fact it's 180 deg out is irrelavant. The valves are still opening and shutting. The gauge continues to read until you release the valve on the gauge.

If his compression was shite, he either had a bent valve of f*cked rings. end of.

if it was 180deg out it would still give a good compression rating if it was turned over for long enough? which makes sense

my freind that had his 180 out removed his head and reset the timing correctly nothing was damaged

if this was my build I think the next move would be to remove the valve cover and no1 spark plug,

using a piece of wire through the plug hole as a guide, wind no1 piston to TDC and check both valves are closed on that cylinder. then check timing marks they should be close to lined up, if not then it's 180 out

trev don't give up, I am sure when this is all ironed out and it's running sweet it will be worth all the effort

[SUMPCRACKER]

The valves and pistons are no different if the timing is 180 out, no clash, full compression ect..

There is no need to remove head to re set it, just remove the plugs, get a rod/wire and set the pistons half way.

mark where the cam is, loosen tensioner and remove belt, turn cam 180 deg and refit belt.

Then line up the timing marks to make sure your not a tooth out.

The rotor arm will tell you what is what but if you cant be arsed to remove the cap at this stage then swapping the leeds over on the cap only takes 2 mins

Trev knows this, but some people dont seem completly clear on how timing works.

[B7]

The valves and pistons are no different if the timing is 180 out, no clash, full compression ect..

There is no need to remove head to re set it, just remove the plugs, get a rod/wire and set the pistons half way.

mark where the cam is, loosen tensioner and remove belt, turn cam 180 deg and refit belt.

Then line up the timing marks to make sure your not a tooth out.

The rotor arm will tell you what is what but if you cant be arsed to remove the cap at this stage then swapping the leeds over on the cap only takes 2 mins

Trev knows this, but some people dont seem completly clear on how timing works.

Absolutely spot on in my mind. Exactly what I'm thinking (and Barry too if I read our conversation right yesterday).
Next job is to remove all the plugs to make it easier to turn the engine over. Remove the cam cover to get sight of No1 valve gear. Remove bottom pulley and line up mark. Then check the state of play up top and the position on the rotor arm. Is it pointing to No.6 or No. 1?

Place your bets now!!!

[SUMPCRACKER]

If its pointing at 1 im driving to Surrey.

[bigbhpwannabe]

It can still be 180 out with all the mrks lined up , easy way to check is to reverse the plug leeds.

1-6
2-5
3-4

sumpcracker is bang on here i recon .
i cant belive that you have not tryed swapin the leads ,for the sake of a few mins the problem could be found ,
he has even written what leads to swap !

[B7]

It can still be 180 out with all the mrks lined up , easy way to check is to reverse the plug leeds.

1-6
2-5
3-4

sumpcracker is bang on here i recon .
i cant belive that you have not tryed swapin the leads ,for the sake of a few mins the problem could be found ,
he has even written what leads to swap !

Because the car is 20 odd miles away!