welded diff

Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:05 am

Dezzy wrote:Ah the age old argument of welded diff against LSD. IMO LSD for the road and track and welded for driffting. I use LSD because it's write for my car. Isn't a welded diff an mot fail.

The only bit of sense in this thread, apart from DanThe's comments.

Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:22 pm

my Rotax cart has sort of a welded diff....does that count?

Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:45 pm

My God some people will talk rubbish on here. A welded diff is _not_ an MOT fail, my MOT tester has one and he welded mine, you just can't test the rear brakes individually so they have to do it on the road. If you had a two-way LSD I imagine the effect would be similar.

You only get tyre scrub on really tight corners because the tread blocks move enough to absorb the differential in more open curves. On the road is a bit vicious, parking can be a pain and junctions will make everyone look at your car like you're a rapist, but the predictability in hard cornering is lovely.

And, most importantly, it's free. Don't do it if you're only going to use it on the road, unless you enjoy being sideways in the wet.

As for using an LSD because it's right for the car, in 99% of cases this is true. You only want a welded diff if you're interested in the drift. But I don't have the money for an LSD so welded is a decent substitute.

Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:47 pm

at mot time its the same procedure (using the brake force meter insted of the rollers) as with an lsd or permenant 4wd. its no problem, just tell the tester. he might look at you funny, but thats not a problem either!

Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:39 pm

How many of you with welded diffs have informed your insurer of this very relevant 'mod'?

Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:49 am

ive told mine it has a non original lsd (its the truth!). they just marked it as a transmission modification, they diddnt quiz me any further, no specific details on the subject asked by them. still paying just over 300 for the year on my classic policy. (gotta love my 8 years no claims!)

Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:12 am

It's your responsibility to provide ALL relevant information, and a welded diff is not a LIMITED slip diff, it's a LOCKED diff.
I very much doubt if your insurance is valid.

Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:57 am

Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:50 am

So what would people recommend for normal road use?

I have been keeping my eye on some LSDs for my '86 325i coupe. How much do they normally go for? There are a few types from what I've seen. Which one would be best suited to our cars/my car?

Getting an LSD is not an issue, i mean, financially, it will be a waiting game [finding the right one etc] but it can be done. I'm just wondering can i achieve identical results with a welded diff or is it better to go with an LSD?

I like my car tailhappy in the wet

I currently do not need a welded diff or lsd to spin my tyres in the wet, from a standstill or say 10/20 mph

.

Thanks in advance guys.

Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:24 am

A LSD for any road use, as I consider it unlikely that you can legally insure a car in the UK with such a modification that makes it potentially dangerous!
I'll repeat the question I asked earlier: Has anyone on here with a welded diff fully declared the mod to their insurance company? Happy to be proved wrong!

Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:53 am

only reason i went for welded is because im too poor for a decent lsd.

also can people stop iving welded diffs a bad name, if youve driven with one daily for a while then your welcome to an opinion, ive had mine in for 2 months drive daily with it to work and ive driven to france with it, never had any problems, only notice the scrubbing at low speeds.

as for it beign some kind of monster that kicks your backend out everywhere, what a load of crap. i dont think its yet once steped out when i didnt want it to, if you cant drive with a welded diff and keep the back end inline when needed then i recomend getting a corsa or something similar and shit.

Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:57 am

Brianmoooore wrote: I'll repeat the question I asked earlier: Has anyone on here with a welded diff fully declared the mod to their insurance company? Happy to be proved wrong!

Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:34 pm

so why do people want welded diffs? to make up for their inadequacies in their driving ability or to cover up the fact they have a woefully underpowered car?

Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:04 pm

fuzzy wrote:so why do people want welded diffs? to make up for their inadequacies in their driving ability or to cover up the fact they have a woefully underpowered car?

+1

With a powerull enough car (e.g. 325i) and the mediocre amount of skill required to judge how to kick a back end out you can still happily get both wheels spinning and sliding with an open diff. I've only found LSDs help to go round a corner faster whilst taming the back-end. Other than that there is no problem with an open diff. By all means, not knocking a welded diff, I'd love one, but only one a car for drifting and amusement.

There is no point risking it for road use. If you need a welded diff to step out either buy a more powerful RWD car or get some skill before attempting something stupid on a public road. Even if your a "safe" driver and make sure there is nothing about to kill.... you may still regret writing off your nice E30 when you run out of skill.

Go to a large carpark in the middle of the night and get some practice.

Not slating anyone.... just there is no point in a welded diff on the road. Go too fast round even a gentle corner and one day it'll bite.... bad.

Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:17 pm

i had no problem getting the back end out on my 316 with its open diff. but its a hell of alot easier with a welded diff in there. so am i stupid for makeing life easier for myself? i wont say all as that may not be perfectly true but the majority of us have legs that work so are we stupid that we use cars to get places? why do we bother havng cars when there is public transport?

Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:47 pm

yeah_mick wrote:i had no problem getting the back end out on my 316 with its open diff. but its a hell of alot easier with a welded diff in there. so am i stupid for making life easier for myself? i wont say all as that may not be perfectly true but the majority of us have legs that work so are we stupid that we use cars to get places? why do we bother havng cars when there is public transport?

Thankfully we are clever enough beings to have created a "vehicle" that moves at very fast speeds and gets us from place to place with minimal effort. Why chance ruining yours or even other people's experience of transportation with your craving to go sideways in what you have stated as your everyday car.

Not being mean pal. When you put a welded diff onto something like a 325i or something with even more power then its a recipe for disaster.

One day, you'll go sideways, over-do it and crash.

I say this as when I was on my bike about four years ago, heading down some nice twisties a car came round the corner sideways... Now, whilst i anticipated him correcting his oversteer... I braked. He failed... goosed it and flew into my side of the road and stacked in my lane. Had it been literally a second or so later... I would have nailed by this guy in his car. Me = broken... badly.

I've seen many, many, many tits who think they can drive fast, go sideways and think they could beat the late colin mcrae in a race. Virtually all of them can tell you a story or two of how they nearly killed themselves, other people or their passengers. Total idiots. Non of them learned and now 2 are dead. One going head on into a tree at 50mph though the twisties and another going sideways into a lamp-post which nailed the drivers door...

I'm saying the principle of it is stupid. Not you. Even if you do it safely and at slow speeds and hit a curb which in turn breaks your rear trailing arm's bits and writes your car off for the DVLA to check your car to find a welded diff which in turn voids your insurance and bans you from driving... Now thats going a bit far as to what could happen, but think... it could be worse.

Just put an open diff on and find a large car park or massiv space of some sort and boot it into corners. Welded diffs are for people entering amatuer drifting events.

Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:36 pm

whos to say i dont enter events? some of us cant afford to run a sensible daily car then own a toy for drift/track days. Just because we cant afford to have a special toy car whos to say we cant have our daily as our toy? you cant just go round stereotyping everyone with a welded diff. Soon enough everyone with a welded diff is going to be a mass murderer in the eyes of most zoners

Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:54 pm

id be more scared of someone trying to go sideways in a car with a open diff!!! when its welded the predictability of the machine is 100%. your not going into corners thinking is it guna stepout or is it guna spin the inside wheel..... and with an open diff to drift a corner you need to enter it faster making it more dangerous. and the danger of the inside wheel finding some grip and passing more torque thru the diff to the outside wheel and throwing you into the bushes.
when its welded particulally when its wet you have to drive slowly round corners feathering the throttle. boot it youll be sideways. its your choice, not the cars, whether your sideways or not!

if you wana straighten it up after a drift you simply take you foot off the throttle both wheels automatically want to grip and turn at the same speed this effect almost straightens the car up for you. fishtailing is a thing of the past!

Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:02 pm

Brianmoooore wrote:and a welded diff is not a LIMITED slip diff, it's a LOCKED diff.

of course its limited, how much more limited can you get than locked??

Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:06 pm

I have been out in a car with a locked diff. Slow speed was pretty much unbareable. At speed it felt ok'ish around corners but it was dry.

The thing is I don't think they have a place on a road car. If it does less than a couple of thousand miles and those are just going to drift events, then fair enough. Not everyone can afford a trailer and tow car and insurance/tax/mot. But if it is being used regularly or semi regularly I don't think it is 'on' tbh.

This is the reason:

Unexpected things happen when you are driving on public british roads. Any number of things could cause you to swerve, chances are, you'll be off the throttle, but unless you engage the clutch ultra rapid the rear wheels are going to be 'locked' and you may (or may not) spin. This is less likely to happen in an Open or LSD equiped car.

So even if you are the best differ in the world, unexpected things happen on the roads and you want the machinary(Car/diff) to help you out, not to fuck you over, or the family you crash into.

This is before considering the characteristics of a locked diff on a RWD car that I can't be bothered to go into.

I am pretty sure that is a fair post from someone who has experience of various LSDs and been in a welder.

Anyone answered Brians question yet?

Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:09 pm

Murran I also agree about an open diff being unpredictable, but you really have to be trying to get one wheel to spin or drift with one. It is not something(if you are a good driver) you should accidently find. Most people who drive mx5's for instance will never find out what will happen first. Because they drive to the conditions. Without doubt for NORMAL road driving a LSD or Open diff is safer in 99.9% of situations.

Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:24 pm

yeah_mick wrote:whos to say i dont enter events? some of us cant afford to run a sensible daily car then own a toy for drift/track days. Just because we cant afford to have a special toy car whos to say we cant have our daily as our toy? you cant just go round stereotyping everyone with a welded diff. Soon enough everyone with a welded diff is going to be a mass murderer in the eyes of most zoners

Get the cheapest taxed/mot'd and running 316/316i/318i/318is/320i/325i and doesn't have to be in that good of a condition. Keep hording sets of bottle tops and weld a diff? Thats not expensive.... Can be had with a saturday job at asda. Then just go to places where you can. Roughly £25-£30 for a weeks temporary insurance to take it where it needs to go and have fun.

I'm not saying your a bad driver, nor am I calling you a murderer or even said your a dangerous driver. Welded diffs on the road is a stupid idea. Fine, have a welded diff, but keep a stock open one for the roads and put it on occasionally when you want some fun at certain more controlled environments.

Assuming you know how to replace your diff, that shouldn't cost you a thing. And if you dont, well you'll end up spending more getting a garage to replace them everytime they break. Not to mention tyre wear.

As above, public roads have unexpected incidents every day. Imagine having to break hard round a corner with a locked diff??

Finally, if anything happened and you get caught because your car is acting funny (screeching around slow corners) you'll have to say good'bye to reasonable insurance, possibly your car and even a chance they'll have your license.

TBH, as much as I like the occassional drift, I'd much rather have an open diff and attempt stepping the back out that way than put up with a locked diff all the time on the road.

Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:29 pm

Jon_Bmw wrote:Murran I also agree about an open diff being unpredictable, but you really have to be trying to get one wheel to spin or drift with one. It is not something(if you are a good driver) you should accidently find. Most people who drive mx5's for instance will never find out what will happen first. Because they drive to the conditions. Without doubt for NORMAL road driving a LSD or Open diff is safer in 99.9% of situations.

Open diffs are fine. Most people struggle to get the back end out because they put the power on too late (mid corner) and it kicks out one wheel.

Floor it as your entering the corner, with only a tiny bit of turning, spin up both wheels, let go of the steering wheel and allow the car to fling itself sideways. Control the power and grab the steering wheel with little on/off jolts to keep it from going to full lock if you dont want to go that far round. Simples.

Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:15 pm

WOW !!

Monumental amounts of GAY in this thread from people with no idea !!

Welded diffs are an annoyance at slow speed but above 20mph you just adapt like any other quirk of the car. I wouldnt do 50,000miles a year with one, but I wouldnt say they are too unsafe for normal guys to drive normally on normal roads. You speak as though they are the devil incarnate !!

I guess sit comes down to what you're used to.

J.

Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:16 pm

NayC wrote:
Jon_Bmw wrote:Murran I also agree about an open diff being unpredictable, but you really have to be trying to get one wheel to spin or drift with one. It is not something(if you are a good driver) you should accidently find. Most people who drive mx5's for instance will never find out what will happen first. Because they drive to the conditions. Without doubt for NORMAL road driving a LSD or Open diff is safer in 99.9% of situations.
Open diffs are fine. Most people struggle to get the back end out because they put the power on too late (mid corner) and it kicks out one wheel.

Floor it as your entering the corner, with only a tiny bit of turning, spin up both wheels, let go of the steering wheel and allow the car to fling itself sideways. Control the power and grab the steering wheel with little on/off jolts to keep it from going to full lock if you dont want to go that far round. Simples.

Wow, thanks for the advice NayC. I'll be an expert now.

Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:51 pm

Jon_Bmw wrote:
NayC wrote:
Jon_Bmw wrote:Murran I also agree about an open diff being unpredictable, but you really have to be trying to get one wheel to spin or drift with one. It is not something(if you are a good driver) you should accidently find. Most people who drive mx5's for instance will never find out what will happen first. Because they drive to the conditions. Without doubt for NORMAL road driving a LSD or Open diff is safer in 99.9% of situations.
Open diffs are fine. Most people struggle to get the back end out because they put the power on too late (mid corner) and it kicks out one wheel.

Floor it as your entering the corner, with only a tiny bit of turning, spin up both wheels, let go of the steering wheel and allow the car to fling itself sideways. Control the power and grab the steering wheel with little on/off jolts to keep it from going to full lock if you dont want to go that far round. Simples.
Wow, thanks for the advice NayC. I'll be an expert now.

My pleasure

I still see loads of tits trying to go sideways with no idea. Thought I would enlighten them with the proper principles.

Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:14 pm

mine doesnt get driven that much. gets driven to work 2/3 times a week thats it really. sits on the drive most of the time. my classic insurance is a 5000 miles a year policy anyway.

i dont hoon around in it anyway, need my licence for my job. ive done three drift days in it so far. mostly due to lack of money.
but ive been saving up since buying the spax suspension for it and im doing two days this month at crail and brawdy!

ive done the drifting thing with an open diff for two days at brawdy (tdw2)...... its like trying to run with your knees tied together!!

youve booted as your going in or shift locked it with more speed than nessasary, steps out alls sideways your on the throttle but then you get halfway round the corner outside wheel starts to roll at road speed, inside wheels lit up like a chrismas tree your having to bounce it off the revlimiter... but no, end of drift and your left fishtailing up the road!

Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:18 pm

When you up at crail murran?

Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:13 pm

why are you bringing up un expected events on the road? whats that got to do with a welded diff? if were using that as an excuse then i will say not to fill your boot with stuff and take 5 passengers because then it will take longer to stop if you need to suddenly brake in an unexpected situation.

and to even my welded diff/unexpected event balance, ive passed my I.A.M test so therefor i am now a better driver than you people without. so with my welded diff in it brings me back down to the exact same driving risk as you lsd/open diff guyss without the I.A.M test.

Thank you for listening.

Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:22 pm

Ahhhhhhhh

But have you passed the Leximus Maximus Poddington skillzzzz test ??

Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:21 pm

yeah_mick wrote:why are you bringing up un expected events on the road? whats that got to do with a welded diff? if were using that as an excuse then i will say not to fill your boot with stuff and take 5 passengers because then it will take longer to stop if you need to suddenly brake in an unexpected situation.

and to even my welded diff/unexpected event balance, ive passed my I.A.M test so therefor i am now a better driver than you people without. so with my welded diff in it brings me back down to the exact same driving risk as you lsd/open diff guyss without the I.A.M test.

Thank you for listening.

Just

Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:26 pm

gcs325i wrote:When you up at crail murran?

saturday the 8th of aug and maybe sunday if we have any tyres left. (im taking 10 wheels!)
going to skid around with fellow uninsurable and irresponcible dangers to every man woman and child ever to grace the queens highway.

CAUTION DRIFTING CONTENT WITH WELDED DIFFS!!! THOSE OF WEAK DISPOSION AND/OR CHARACTER NEED NOT CLICK ON THIS!!!

Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:10 pm

Bladerider wrote:Ahhhhhhhh

But have you passed the Leximus Maximus Poddington skillzzzz test ??

In the very near future.

Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:09 pm

I'm not remotely interested in what you get up to on a track - whether you drive looking through the front window, a side window, or even the rear window is no concern of mine, nor is what type of diff you have (or not)!!
What is of concern to me is if any of you have VALID insurance when driving on the same road as me or my family. Still waiting for an answer to that!

Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:18 pm

There's has been no answer on this question. I bet there isn't a car with a welded diff on here that is declared as such to the insurance company. I can't see any insurance companys rushing to insure cars that in there owners words 'make people look at you like your a rapist turning a corner tight corners at slow speed'. Can't be arse with all the long winded bitching but it's still wrong to run a welded diff on the road end of.