BMW 325I MOTORSPORT VS VW MK4 1.8T

[no1_jazz]

Hi there zoners just out of curiosity which of the 2 cars is better in preformnce and as an overall???

1.off the line
2. top end
3. handling
4. why??

a few friends belive that the vdub is by far the better car all round and is fatser all round im prity sure this aint the case, your wisdom and thoughts are much appreciated.

BMW 325i re-mapped vs a VW MK4 1.8t re-mapped????

many thanks
jazz

[stevemed]

Wow now thats two very different cars!

i own a '87 325i cabby (chipped with filter) and a '02 3dr mk4 gt tdi (130hp with NO mods) - one for motorway miles and one for cruising - i'll let you guess which is for which

1.off the line - golf wins hands down (has weight advantage and torque++)
2.top end - bmw sits at 140 comfortably, golf 120 - 130ish
3.handling - bmw is lowered but golf is standard and like a boat in comparison! - but more comfortable.
4.why?? - oldskool cool vs modern mk4

suppose it depends whether you do motorway miles or city? think theres way more tuning potential in the 1.8t engine so you won't get bored in that respect, but two really different engines and cars imo.

re-mapping a 325 gives waaaay different results to remapping a 1.8t - golf is newer! (sure someone else will elaborate on the ins and outs of how this works and how the mk4 gives a better/more gains)

p.s. my mk4 doesn't turn ANY heads when i drive it the BMW on the other hand.......

[rado-steve]

A std Mk4 1.8T KO3 with 150bhp will map up to about 180-190bhp....any one who says more is talking donkey poo! An anniversary with a KO3s turbo and 180bhp as std will map up to 210-220bhp! Limiting factor is the small turbo's ability to hold boost and the std side mount I/C being absolutley gash!

Off the line the Golf would have it has it has loads of torque from 2K upwards...most 325 6's I've driven are crap below 4.5K then they fly, The golf would be easier to drive quickly, but on standard suspen they are very lardy and not particulary good, decent set of coliovers and some ARB's sorts that out though!

A mapped Aniversary would dick a 325i in a straightline as it has 40-50 more horspowers and a boat load more torque, a std mapped Mk4 would come 2nd to the 325 purely on the fact an e30 weighs about 1100kg compared to a lardy Mk4 of 1300kg!


Mk4 golfs are a good everyday car, but in std trim they are pretty boring unless you get an R32 which looks the bollocks....but an e30 is a cool awesome looking car....and I'm a confessed VW obsessive!

Now put that 1.8T eninge into a Mk2 golf, fit a VF34 IHI turbo and have 350bhp in something that weighs just under a tonne is bloody good fun

My choice E30

[no1_jazz]

Having own both cars I prefer the BMW all day every day. My friend has the MK4 1.8t ko3 re mapped and now is pushing around 210 to 220bhp with 30psi boost from 2000rpm onwards. It is quick for sure and has a quick surge of power in low gears...... but I keep telling him for top end it is safer to drive a 6pot rather a 4pot, don’t ask me why my mental just tells me it’s safer and has more power to hack speeds from 100mph on wards.

He somehow thinks it will do 160mph with ease after all he has a big head as he now has 30psi boost but for sure I know this is not true. Any 4 pot after 125mph will start to feel like it might go pop any second if you get what I mean.

And the competition around the track I again feel that the 325i will win I may be wrong but I just have faith. I just think BMW are a bigger better car then VDUB although they have more tunning options but that still don’t help that they are small and still don’t turn heads lol
I am going to turn the table and ask him how about a E46 325i vs ur so called new dub as he calls my car ancient lol.

Ok guys why are bmw better then vdub in your opinion??
regards
Jazz

[stevemed]

I am going to turn the table and ask him how about a E46 325i vs ur so called new dub as he calls my car ancient lol.

think it might have been me that mentioned the mk4 was new in comparison!

4.why?? - oldskool cool vs modern mk4

(unless you know the guy who said the above?) your right tho it should really be up against a e46 seen as though they are around the same money nowadays and created at similar times!.

[rado-steve]

Your Mates Mk4 won't be running 30psi of boost!!! Thats over 2bar!!! It may spike at that but it won't hold it on a std Ko3s turbo!!!

You can't really compare an e30 with a Mk4 as they are in a total different time frame! Maybe a Mk2 Golf with an E30 or a Mk3 with an e36! As you state a Mk4 is more e46 territory!

I know what your saying about 6pots...thats why VW built the VR6, to compete with BM's big 6pots!!!

I have a corrado that'll do over 150mph and that little 4 pot is fine believe me

[bss325i]

...thats why VW built the VR6, to compete with BM's big 6pots!!!

Which is crap!

[Rav335uk]

Can i join in with my 3,5

[On_a_Roll]

I had a MK4 GTI 2.0 for 6 months whilst looking for my E46 and it was total crap.

Like all VAG shite, gearbox is like stirring porridge, steering felt like all the links and bushes were wood and the brakes were on or off - no in between.

I HATE VAG cars with a passion. They get such hype but truly drive like utter shite. Why do they all chew up their suspension and linkages at 60K? And start knocking and clunking soon after? Name the model, I've driven them all and they're all shite. I'm not biased - I'll be the first to poo poo BMW but they are superior in every-way.

It's unacceptable - VAG make horrible cars.

And don't start saying the R8 and RS4 bla bla let's stick to reality.

The E46 is the natural competitor to the MK4 - is that even a contest?

[Felix79]

Good point there Ratch. Who in there right mind compair an e46 to a golf? My old man had the 330ci and that was bloody rapid and it was a really really nice place to be.

I will admit I've never driven that many dubs or GTi's but the way the mk1 and mk2 lift one wheel off the ground doing fast corners dose make me have a lack in confidence in the car.

Am I right in thinking the mk2 GTi's would get faster after a good bit of milage was put into them. I remember a top gear when I was in my teens about it and they were hitting the 140+ mph threshold.

With regards to having a tweaked 325i. I know Si and Barry both say the 2.5 Alpina is what the 325i should have been and with that in mind I know my old Alpina is savage and quick enough to match and beat cars like the mk4 golf's.

[no1_jazz]

I’m totally with you guys

On_a_Roll I hate them with a passion as well my friend... I can guarantee u that they do start knocking and clunking soon after 60k without a doubt. When I do lay down the facts about vags and bmw’s they start to get over protective of their passion and then of course mention the R8 AND RS4 and so on... but then I say although just to tic them of that lil more I say you look at a bmw and know it’s a bmw u look at a vag u know it’s a vag but u look at an audi and don’t see the vw sign lol.

I told him his car will not hold 30psi throughout the rev range otherwise his turbo will go bang lol but he claims that what I say is not true lol.

Guys what I find weird is that, to make this whole conversation make a bit more sense lol I have told him ok let’s get things to timescale so I mentioned the E46 325I MOTORSPORT and for some reason he thinks I will have him off the line as I have rear wheel drive bazaar I know..... but for some reason he still thinks he drives the better car and a vag is better than a bmw lol

Oh he also believes that he has better mid range power and top end power and that the 325i is no contest apart from the few yards it will gain off the line as it is a rear wheel drive im starting to think this guy is going abit Looney lol


Regards
Jazz

[Low_E30]

I hate it when people dont keep arguments in context....

I bet theres dubbers out there that would use a Veyron as one of their own in a 'VW VS BMW' argument.... what complete tosh.

If thats the case BM people should simply mention the Maclaren F1, just because it had a BMW engine!

[Nay]

My mate happens to be buying a Mk4 GTI 1.8L turbo.

Thinks its the "bee's knees" and with alloys and suspension with a barry-boy dumpvalve that it will be a head turning car

I find it very hard to like any FWD cars now (even our Alfa Romeo!) and especially hatchbacks. If someone thinks that a <very common> car with lowering springs and tbh pretty rubbish ebay alloys then they have something wrong in their head!

I've just had a thought, why dont we film the delierious VW Golf owners and put them on youtube to compare their psychology? I dont believe mankind has attempted this yet! We could discover something amazing....

[Blitz]

The mk1, 2, 5 are the worthy gti's

[On_a_Roll]

Oh my god I didn't even mention FWD - instant FAIL.

I've driven / owned:

MK 2 GTI
MK 3 GTI
Corrado 16V and VR6 (not G60 though)
MK 4 GTI 2.0
Sharan 2.0
Audi Cabrio 2.0
Audi MK1 TT 1.8T
Audi A4 1.8
Audi 2.8 Q
Audi A6
2006 Audi RS6 (not so much a car, more a teleport machine though still utterly cold and uninvolving)

All drove the same, share the same issues. Crap gearbox, crap steering feel/weight, no feedback, over servo'ed brakes and bumpy knock-ridden ride, squelchy body roll.

VAG - great cars for people who don't like cars.

[sihooker]

VAG..IN A single phrase...no nuts!

[stevemed]

Oh my god I didn't even mention FWD - instant FAIL.

I've driven / owned:

MK 2 GTI
MK 3 GTI
Corrado 16V and VR6 (not G60 though)
MK 4 GTI 2.0
Sharan 2.0
Audi Cabrio 2.0
Audi MK1 TT 1.8T
Audi A4 1.8
Audi 2.8 Q
Audi A6
2006 Audi RS6 (not so much a car, more a teleport machine though still utterly cold and uninvolving)

All drove the same, share the same issues. Crap gearbox, crap steering feel/weight, no feedback, over servo'ed brakes and bumpy knock-ridden ride, squelchy body roll.

VAG - great cars for people who don't like cars.

why keep buying them then?? lol - hope you say next that they were all company cars!! lol

[On_a_Roll]

No - friends and family - about 2 of those I've owned and that was only to resell as I know some VAG dealers who let me buy the odd trade-in for really cheap now and again.

I've had the same 318iS for almost 10/11 years now and have only just added an E46 runaround duty.

[stevemed]

No - friends and family - about 2 of those I've owned and that was only to resell as I know some VAG dealers who let me buy the odd trade-in for really cheap now and again.

I've had the same 318iS for almost 10/11 years now and have only just added an E46 runaround duty.

ok fair do's, this is my first venture in to the vw world always had bm's, and, touch wood....my mk4 is ok so far. wouldn't buy one again tho however would get another e46.

[On_a_Roll]

VAG's are good solid cars if you just want something that works and is well built.

But if you like cars and enjoy driving they are awful.

I had one as a runaround in Central London and it was great, arguably easier to live with than my E30 but I hated driving it and therefore it became nasty.

I also didn't mention that there is NOTHING special about any VAG - even the top ones as they are 2-a-penny, at least in London.

I get stopped at least once a month here and asked if my 318iS is for sale, it's like a 'new' old car etc. By all types of people, young and old, pikey and aristo.

[no1_jazz]

Yeah I guess the E30 is one of a kind really, I mean i love my 1 to bits and I’m sure you guys love your 1 to bits as well, good sized well balanced and bullet engines all of them, you just can’t go wrong and if you do it don’t cost an arm and a leg to repair in comparison to new cars i.e. mk4 lol.

With the rite set up they handle well and are allot i mean allot of fun. Things you just don’t find in a front wheel drive car.

It’s funny how the guy has not yet got back to me in regards to the E46 325i, I think this should flash him back to reality. I am waiting on his reply so soon as i here anything ill keep u guys updated.

BMW ALL THE WAY!!

[rado-steve]

VAG's are good solid cars if you just want something that works and is well built.

But if you like cars and enjoy driving they are awful.

I had one as a runaround in Central London and it was great, arguably easier to live with than my E30 but I hated driving it and therefore it became nasty.

I also didn't mention that there is NOTHING special about any VAG - even the top ones as they are 2-a-penny, at least in London.

I get stopped at least once a month here and asked if my 318iS is for sale, it's like a 'new' old car etc. By all types of people, young and old, pikey and aristo.

What planet do you live on????? C'mon give your head a shake FFS!

I don't know where you get the idea that VW's don't handle?? The corrado is one of the best FWD cars you can get, almost as good as an Integera but not quite! The MK5 GTI also has rave reviews!

Also the corrado happens to be one of the prettiest coupes around, still looks fresh even in the noughties!!!

And lets be honest guys....the e30 is a good handling car but it aint a 944 or a 968 porka is it????

TBF why all the VW hating????? Most dubbers love their beemers, especially e30's!

[rado-steve]

...thats why VW built the VR6, to compete with BM's big 6pots!!!

Which is crap!

Mmm do not feed the troll

But while your on...do explain???

[Rav335uk]

The MK5 GTI also has rave reviews!

Who reviewed that hen, a martian!!!!!
I've never ever read a good review about a mk5 apart from the fact its not or never will be as good as a mk1.
FACT!!

[rado-steve]

The MK5 GTI also has rave reviews!

Who reviewed that hen, a martian!!!!!
I've never ever read a good review about a mk5 apart from the fact its not or never will be as good as a mk1.
FACT!!

Stop trolling mate.....

[Rav335uk]

Who's trollin'
Only stating facts

[rado-steve]

well why don't you back them up then instead of saying that there has not been a good review of the mk5 GTI and leaving it at that???

you might find the odd crap thing about it, but i can't remember reading a review that gave it less than 4 stars!!!

Evo Mag : http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarr ... f_gti.html

4.5 stars.....Nuff Said Really

[On_a_Roll]

VAG's are good solid cars if you just want something that works and is well built.

But if you like cars and enjoy driving they are awful.

I had one as a runaround in Central London and it was great, arguably easier to live with than my E30 but I hated driving it and therefore it became nasty.

I also didn't mention that there is NOTHING special about any VAG - even the top ones as they are 2-a-penny, at least in London.

I get stopped at least once a month here and asked if my 318iS is for sale, it's like a 'new' old car etc. By all types of people, young and old, pikey and aristo.

What planet do you live on????? C'mon give your head a shake FFS!

I don't know where you get the idea that VW's don't handle?? The corrado is one of the best FWD cars you can get, almost as good as an Integera but not quite! The MK5 GTI also has rave reviews!

Also the corrado happens to be one of the prettiest coupes around, still looks fresh even in the noughties!!!

And lets be honest guys....the e30 is a good handling car but it aint a 944 or a 968 porka is it????

TBF why all the VW hating????? Most dubbers love their beemers, especially e30's!

I live on planet Earth where everyone knows VAG cars are inferior when it comes to handling and driver appeal. There is too much compromise across VAG chassis' for an A3/A4/Passat/Golf/Ibiza/Bentley bla bla bla to be singleminded and focused at anything - BMW doesn't have that weight around the neck to deal with - plus they are FWD.

Saying the E30 isn't a 944 or 968 is just plain dumb - how is that even relevant.

I haven't driven the MK5 GTO but if you read the review they say it's much better than the MK4 which was CRAP, they don't say it's great at all!

This isn't some 'Dubbers like us so we like them' that just gay talk. This is straight fact and VAG make unacceptable compromises, especially in ride and handling. Engines sound horrible too.

The Corrado was a great handling car in context - well done VW.

[rado-steve]

I live on planet Earth where everyone knows VAG cars are inferior when it comes to handling and driver appeal. There is too much compromise across VAG chassis' for an A3/A4/Passat/Golf/Ibiza/Bentley bla bla bla to be singleminded and focused at anything - BMW doesn't have that weight around the neck to deal with - plus they are FWD.

Inferior to what???? Another FWD car or a RWD car that you can't compare with they handle in a totally different way

Saying the E30 isn't a 944 or 968 is just plain dumb - how is that even relevant.

Because you're banging on like BMW's being the best RWD cars in the whole of creation..........drive a 968CS and you'll soon change your mind

This isn't some 'Dubbers like us so we like them' that just gay talk. This is straight fact and VAG make unacceptable compromises, especially in ride and handling. Engines sound horrible too.

No thats not what I said....I wasn't suggesting a mass bumming session to arse lick each other, I was saying that most dubbers have a healthy respect for BM's especially the older ones, pity it doesn't seem to migrate across to BMW forums! I own both a Dub and a Beemer, they are both awesome at different things, my Beemer is a good daily hack that polishes up nice, whilst my rado is just that little bit naughty and awesomely quick plus it's got that exclusivity about it that an E30 can nver have!

And for the Engines sounding crap.....PMSL 3 letters...VR6

[stevemed]

No thats not what I said....I wasn't suggesting a mass bumming session to arse lick each other

Guys this is GREAT reading, really cheers me up . One point i definately agree on is the dubbers liking E30's thing.
DC09 proved that!

More people should be open minded like me and steve and the darlo bunch! if all manufacturers made cars for the same purpose/quality/usage etc. etc. the world would be shit!
I agree with steve they are both good - albeit at different things and nobody would enjoy
driving if all cars were the same!!

World peace

out

[Alex]

Ratch (on_a_roll )Has been banned probably over 10 times steve

he does make great reading though

[B7]

I had a Mk4 1.8t for 5 years. I also own a 325i convertible and have driven numerous 325 e30's. And you cannot even begin to compare them FULL STOP. They are from different era's FFS!!! The e30 is a terrific car still today. In the 80's they were unbeatable as an all rounder. Compare it to a Mk1 GTI or a Mk2, they win hands down on build quality. Driveability? the Golf took some beating........... if you like front wheel drive that is. But the e30 was always the superior car.

HOWEVER, the Mk4 1.8T is an awesome everydayer even with no mods. get in one, start it up and just drive it (quickly) and anyone who says they are shite (Ratch???) is talking b0ll0cks and knows sweet FA about anything. It was one of the best cars I ever owned (including several BMW's) and I'd have another tomorrow.

And don't even bring the Mk3 Golfs into it. BSS325i is right. Even the VR6 was dogshit. I had an 8 valve GTI and that was one of the worse cars I ever owned.

And to the guy above quoting the 2.0 Mk4 as being shite? Yes they are. God knows why VW even bothered when they had the 1.8T in the range. One of VW's lesser moments I'm afraid. Drive a 1.8T and then tell me they ain't chalk and cheese

[Benho]

this is hilarious.

the mk4 was the WORSE car in the golf range. how so many of you can be knocking the VW's i dont understand. the mk 1,2 and 3 are very capable cars, despite the mk3 being the size of a small moon.

im very tempted to say that you guys know sweet FA about cars for knocking possibly one of the most popular car manufactures with the biggest followings in the world =/

im on the same wavelength as Steve here. both are very competent cars but you cant even imagine comparing different generations. mk2 gti 16v vs the e30 325. that would be interesting (if done on a track)

[B7]

this is hilarious.

the mk4 was the WORSE car in the golf range. how so many of you can be knocking the VW's i dont understand. the [edited]mk 3 are very capable cars, despite the mk3 being the size of a small moon.

You're joking right? The mk3 was a f*cking big FAT joke of a car that rotted faster than a lancia in the sea! Slow, poor handling, crap build quality and unreliable compared to the usual VW expectancy. The Mk4 was streets ahead on build quality and reliabilty. hence they lost money on every one they made. To build the car at that level it was just too expensive. The Mk5 HAD to be cheaper to manufactor....that was the main remit.

Our Mk3 GTI was 3 years old when i bought it and within the next year any stone chips rapidly turned scabby on the bottom of the doors. they even rotted in the roof. The dash went AWOL with the rev counter going mental, it ate fuel pump relays and the suspension was shot to bits on 55k. Also had to had 2 wheel bearings as well at about 60k. The interior just looked so tatty by the time it reached 70k (I walked away from so many because the interiors were shot when we were looking), the AC needed major work shortly after buying it and the boot leaked water around the fuel pump cover plate! Thank god it got written off on a rear ender. I wa dreading trying to sell the sh1tter!

Our Mk4 was 4 years old when I bought it with 55k up. The interior (and infact the whole car was) was immaculate. In 5 years All it required was servicing, a window regulator (any dubber will tell you that VAG trait), a new rear ashtray (my daughter kicked it in while getting in one day), a battery and a new plastic water pipe on the side of the head at 97k. We doubled the mileage of that car and spent naff all on it. It just started, went well and was a pleasure to drive. A bilnding car in every respect (bar perhaps a bit of a soft ride). I sold that car on just under 100k 18 months ago to a mate and he's still thrashing the balls off it and it's only needed a clutch since.

[rado-steve]

And don't even bring the Mk3 Golfs into it. BSS325i is right. Even the VR6 was dogshit. I had an 8 valve GTI and that was one of the worse cars I ever owned.

And to the guy above quoting the 2.0 Mk4 as being shite? Yes they are. God knows why VW even bothered when they had the 1.8T in the range. One of VW's lesser moments I'm afraid. Drive a 1.8T and then tell me they ain't chalk and cheese

The Mk3 is probably VW's worse Golf, trying to go posh and upmarket! Too Heavy, Too Slow (Deffo in 8v guise) and wobbly handling!!!

THE VR6 was never meant to be a GTI, so handling wise they suffer, but by christ that engine is an awesome powerhouse, VW quote 174bhp from the 2.8 but they're more like 190ish and the 2.9 will easily push 200bhp!!! Thats what i was refferring too the motor, not the car!

The MK4 GTi was a marketing exercise by VWUK, all proper Mk4 GTI had red I to denote the Turbo! The non turbo cars started out with an N/A version of the 20VT engine with 125bhp and had no torque and you had to rev the bollocks off them to get them to go, they then replaced them with the 2.0litre 8V unit from the beetle but they were still shit..best avoided TBF!

The MK4 is a good evo on the MK3! Better looking, immense bulid quality, and in diesel form has got to be one of the most powerful reliable forms of daily driving you can buy! Plus with some decent suspension, decent set of wheels and a remap they make awesome looking cars![/quote]