Your opinions please

[N00b]

I've decided to go with Apex springs with a 30mm drop on standard shocks. The reason for this is because as well as lapping the 'ring, the car has to transport 4 adults plus luggage around europe for approx 4000 miles.
Now not only do you guys know the e30 better than I do, but you have a greater experience of specific products so I'm asking for your opinions as to whether I've made a sensible or stupid choice.
Thanks in advance, and all constructive replies are welcome.

[GeoffBob]

I don't think it's a good idea to go for a 30mm drop on standard shocks as you have effectively reduced the compression (jounce) stroke of your shock by 30mm, while lengthening the extension (rebound) stroke by 30mm. This is regardless of where you drive the car. Koni does a 20mm shorter adjustable shock for the 51mm strut. I am sure there must be others who do the same.

Unless you have markedly increased the stiffness of your springs (and therefore have reduced the stroke that you'll need from the shock) I'd suggest you look at shorter shocks.

[jamie325isport]

Drop height is sensible but your standard shocks wont last long. Buy a new kit and replace the lot.

[N00b]

I don't think it's a good idea to go for a 30mm drop on standard shocks as you have effectively reduced the compression (jounce) stroke of your shock by 30mm, while lengthening the extension (rebound) stroke by 30mm. This is regardless of where you drive the car. Koni does a 20mm shorter adjustable shock for the 51mm strut. I am sure there must be others who do the same.

Unless you have markedly increased the stiffness of your springs (and therefore have reduced the stroke that you'll need from the shock) I'd suggest you look at shorter shocks.

Any recommendations, bearing in mind that I'm on a budget?
Best bang for buck in other words.

[GeoffBob]

Nothing wrong with a 30mm drop, but ideally you need to find a 30mm shorter shock to go with it. I would have thought the 20mm shorter Koni's would be about your cheapest option. At least then you'd only be out by 10mm on the stroke. That's how I started out, and with a set of cut down E30 springs. Not ideal, but it was a start. I guess you could cut 30mm off the shaft of your existing shocks, but that's sounds pretty dodgy to me (and even then they still wouldn't last very long). The cost of the repairs after the accident will certainly exceed the cost of a pair of Koni's.

[N00b]

Nothing wrong with a 30mm drop, but ideally you need to find a 30mm shorter shock to go with it. I would have thought the 20mm shorter Koni's would be about your cheapest option. At least then you'd only be out by 10mm on the stroke. That's how I started out, and with a set of cut down E30 springs. Not ideal, but it was a start. I guess you could cut 30mm off the shaft of your existing shocks, but that's sounds pretty dodgy to me (and even then they still wouldn't last very long). The cost of the repairs after the accident will certainly exceed the cost of a pair of Koni's.

Sorry to bang on but I don't suppose you can link me up to what you have in mind?

[GeoffBob]

Noob, select make="BMW", model="3-series E30" and type="Sedan 318is, 323i, 325i, 324td, excl. M-Technik" on the koni webiste here http://www.koni.com/index.php?id=254.

The shock that you are looking for is the "8641-1210 sport short".

These are to fit the 51mm diameter strut. Make sure that you don't have the 45mm struts if you want to fit these (Which E30 do you have?).

[N00b]

^^^
Thanks mate, I'll look at that link after I finish typing this.
FYI I have an '89 325i Touring.

[N00b]

that site lists "80-2641Sport" for a lowering max of 30mm. As I've gone for springs with a 30mm drop are these shocks ok or should I go for the next ones recommended for a 40mm drop?

[GeoffBob]

that site lists "80-2641Sport" for a lowering max of 30mm. As I've gone for springs with a 30mm drop are these shocks ok or should I go for the next ones recommended for a 40mm drop?

The 80-2641 is for the rear. Sorry, are we talking front or rear here? Unfortunately that's not an adjustable shock. Just remember though, 30mm off a rear spring doesn't equate to 30mm off the shock because the shock and spring aren't mounted in the same place, so neither of those will work if you have 30mm off your rear springs (isn't that a bit extreme?).

If it's for the front then it's the 8641-1210 that you'll need, and it's adjustable which is a great feature. When you get to the ring you simply turn the tap to increase the damping coefficient (friction).

[N00b]

that site lists "80-2641Sport" for a lowering max of 30mm. As I've gone for springs with a 30mm drop are these shocks ok or should I go for the next ones recommended for a 40mm drop?

The 80-2641 is for the rear. Sorry, are we talking front or rear here? Unfortunately that's not an adjustable shock. Just remember though, 30mm of a rear spring doesn't equate to 30mm of the shock because the shock and spring aren't mounted in the same place.

If it's for the front then it's the 8641-1210 that you'll need, and it's adjustable which is a great feature. When you get to the ring you simply turn the tap to increase the damping coefficient (friction).

At the moment the state of play is as follows. Both rear springs were snapped, so I thought instead of replacing with standard items I'd go for uprated parts so I bought an Apex 4 spring kit with a 30mm drop. I'd planned to just replace the rear springs and leave the shockers standard for now, but this appears to be unwise so I'm either looking at replacing the rear shockers too (unless it's cheaper to buy a 4 shock kit).

[fuzzy]

ive often read on here that others have said -30 is the max advisable on standard shocks, any lower and you need the shorter shocks.

[N00b]

ive often read on here that others have said -30 is the max advisable on standard shocks, any lower and you need the shorter shocks.

Given your beast, I can hardly ask what you run for comparison, lol. After my european trip I do plan to track the car but I'm neither after, or prepared, to go on a quest for ultimate handling.
For most cars, 30mm is a good amount to lower if you want to keep the car on the road as well. I'm just trying to get as much advice as possible so I don't either spend money I don't need to or do the opposite and neglect to buy much needed parts.

[GeoffBob]

Does the Apex kit specifically say it gives you a 30mm drop on both the front and rear? If that's the case I think you'd be better off with the 40mm shorter rear Koni, since that's probably about the shortest shock you'll find that's made to fit. The standard will not work, it'll have no stroke left in it!

However, if you are prepared to modify your top mounts ever so slightly (couple of washers, no welding required) then you can look at fitting two Koni 8010-1049 sport shocks. These will work, and as bonus, they are adjustable. This shock is intended for the Opel/Vauhall Corsa, but has similar eyelets at the bottom. The eyelets are fitted with a bush that you will have to drill out from 13mm to 14mm as I recall, but this is no major task. I have these on my track car at the moment.

[N00b]

Does the Apex kit specifically say it gives you a 30mm drop on both the front and rear? If that's the case I think you'd be better off with the 40mm shorter rear Koni, since that's probably about the shortest shock you'll find that's made to fit. The standard will not work, it'll have no stroke left in it!

However, if you are prepared to modify your top mounts ever so slightly (couple of washers, no welding required) then you can look at fitting two Koni 8010-1049 sport shocks. These will work, and as bonus, they are adjustable. This shock is intended for the Opel/Vauhall Corsa, but has similar eyelets at the bottom. The eyelets are fitted with a bush that you will have to drill out from 13mm to 14mm as I recall, but this is no major task. I have these on my track car at the moment.

Oh god, this is starting to sound complicated, lol.
I bought this.....please don't say I've screwed up monumentally lol.

http://www.camskill.co.uk/products.php? ... b26s1029p0

[fuzzy]

try it and see how it goes. i think going by seeing and reading about what others have tried and tested that they will be ok for your intended use. mine is -60/40 so ive used shorter bilsteins with my springs.

[GeoffBob]

Don't panic! Nothing wrong with what you've bought.

If you've got a 30mm drop on your rear springs then you basically need a 30mm shorter shock. Since you are driving a slightly heavier tourer you will likely ride slightly lower than the kit intended, so the 40mm might be better in your case. Have a look at that Corsa shock I recommended, if you are planning on buying new shocks you might be pleasantly surprised.

EDIT: OK, just seen that your kit is specifically intended for the tourer. 30mm on the rear it is then. I'd recommend you fit the Koni 80-2641 sport at 30mm lower. It's non adjustable so it'll be fairly cheap.

[UweM3]

The "shorter" shock you mention isn't physically any shorter. It has a rebound limiting spacer fitted restricting the travel of the rod out of the damper body to allow 30mm lowering springs to be fitted and to keep the spring located between the spring platforms on full suspension drop.

[N00b]

So am I right in assuming that while changing the shockers would improve things further, for the short term future I'll be ok to leave my standard shockers on and that the car will be improved over the standard equipment?
They're not going to catastrophically fail within 100 miles of having the new springs fitted etc?

[GeoffBob]

The "shorter" shock you mention isn't physically any shorter. It has a rebound limiting spacer fitted restricting the travel of the rod out of the damper body to allow 30mm lowering springs to be fitted and to keep the spring located between the spring platforms on full suspension drop.

RE the Koni 80-2641 sport:
The spacer physically limits the stoke of the damper (shock). Without it it's a potential MOT failure since at full droop the spring could potentially fall out. I don't think the fact that the shock isn't physically any shorter is at issue here, the issue is the "shorter" stroke, which provided stiffer springs are fitted, should not be a problem.

RE the Koni 8010-1049 sport
The body of this shock is physically shorter, while retaining a similar stroke to the original. And this one is adjustable. Two reasons why I prefer this one, but then it is unfortunately a bit more expensive and some minor mods are required to fit it.

[UweM3]

So am I right in assuming that while changing the shockers would improve things further, for the short term future I'll be ok to leave my standard shockers on and that the car will be improved over the standard equipment?
They're not going to catastrophically fail within 100 miles of having the new springs fitted etc?

you'll be fine. But if it's an improvement? Well, you will have to judge yourself.
Sometimes if you have really old worn shocks the rod is a little bit scored and by lowering the car you will "move" the scored area of the rod right into the sealing ring of your shocker and they 'may' start to leak. But on a scale out of 10 I would give it a 3.
If it's onlt for that one trip I would give it a go. If you don't like the APEX springs after you installed them give me a buzz. My mate has a almost brand new set of FAULKNER Springs sittin gin his garage. But they are low at the rear, designed for handling on track and not to carry 4 passengers

[GeoffBob]

So am I right in assuming that while changing the shockers would improve things further, for the short term future I'll be ok to leave my standard shockers on and that the car will be improved over the standard equipment?
They're not going to catastrophically fail within 100 miles of having the new springs fitted etc?

No. Actually, at the extreme your springs could fall out.

This all depends on how stiff your new springs are. The stiffer they are the less they expand (compared to softer springs) as you take the load off them. As you jack the rear of the car up the suspension arm will droop down until the new shorter/stiffer springs let go off their seats, and that's an MOT failure. Part of the reason for fitting a shorter shock absorber is to stop the suspension arm from dropping down so far as you lift the car up.

The real danger here (and this is why it's an MOT failure) is because if you ever hit a serious bump, mount a curb, lurch into a hole etc, causing one of the rear arms to severely droop, one of your spings could drop of its perch into the road.

[fuzzy]

you will be able to tell if theyre going to fall out if they are loose when the cars jacked up and the suspension is at full travel. its very unlikely they would fall out with -30, at the worst id say they could dislocate from the platform seat and move about.theres the raised section in the centre of the rear axle seat and the bump stop in the centre at the top that they would need to clear to fall out.ive had short springs in an e30 before with standard shocks and they were fine although i cant remember exactly what drop i had .

[GeoffBob]

its very unlikely they would fall out with -30

As I said above, this depends upon the stiffness of the new springs. A 30mm drop in ride height doesn't mean your springs are 30mm shorter.

Standard rear springs are roughly 250lbs/inch stiff. That means that for every 250lbs of weight you put on them, they compress by 1inch.

To achieve a 30mm drop (with the weight of the tourer on the springs) a 350lb/inch spring is just on 6.5cm shorter (uncompressed) than a 250 lb/inch spring.

To put it another way, lay the two springs next to each other on the table and a 350lb/inch spring (for a 30mm drop) is 6.5cm shorter than your standard spring! And that's more than enough for it to dislocate from its mounting when the standard E30 shock is fully extended!

And from 250lbs/inch to 350lbs/inch is probably a fairly common upgrade. Like I said - it all depends on the stiffness of the new springs.

[UweM3]

I am with fuzzy on that one. None of the different lowering springs I have fitted to E30's was loose on full drop. Most of the time you will have to stand on the trailing (with the shocker removed) to juuuust get then spring out without a spring compressor.

9 out of 10 the rear spring is a ballon type spring and is having a "dead" coil top/bottom or middle to keep the unloaded length as long as possible. If we are talking of linear 2.5 ID race springs then yes, they need to be shorter to lower the car if you increase the spring rate.

the good old 190 Merc is a fine candidate of falling out rear springs when lowered wrongly. I have seen surprised faces of owners when their car went up on a lift and suddenly two rusty pieces of metal are bouncing on the workshop floor

[GeoffBob]

If we are talking of linear 2.5 ID race springs then yes, they need to be shorter to lower the car if you increase the spring rate.

I bought this.....
http://www.camskill.co.uk/products.php? ... b26s1029p0

Seems that linear springs are exactly what we are talking about?

[UweM3]

If we are talking of linear 2.5 ID race springs then yes, they need to be shorter to lower the car if you increase the spring rate.

I bought this.....
http://www.camskill.co.uk/products.php? ... b26s1029p0

Seems that linear springs are exactly what we are talking about?

I must be blind, but the link shows a lowering kit with differnt wound cloils and not linear race springs like Eibach or KW I was talking about.

BTW it says on the bottom of the picture "for illustration only"....

[GeoffBob]

BTW it says on the bottom of the picture "for illustration only"....

Fine Uwe, whatever you say. For illustration purposes it is then. Quite frankly I am so not interested in getting into a fight with you right now.

[jimmymig]

[/Hi NOOb i am using the same springs with sach gas shocks and sport ARB,s.No probs in 2000miles and handles ok but will be putting standard springs back on rear for camping hols.3kids +misses+me+camping gear=no rear travel but only takes 45mins too swap hope this helps ps.front strut brace makes a big difference.