318is with Rotrex C30-94 Supercharger

Discuss general engine, turbo and supercharger conversions in this section

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GeoffBob
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Mon May 25, 2009 10:49 pm

appletree wrote:A 10% increase of my 6500rpm limit will bring 7260 which will get my goal or very close to it. however, i may eventually machine a new crank pully to make the charger reach its max RPM at the max enigne RPM of 6500 and bring the torque curve down a bit.:
I wouldn't recommend this, since you will once again start pushing the loadline to the left, closer to surge. Although at least with the C30-84 you are starting out further away from surge in the first place, so I guess that there is some room to to increase the pulley ratio in the future if you want to. Keep in mind though, there are only three ways to get an engine to flow more air:
  • 1) increase the capacity of the engine (overbore, stroker, another engine etc),
    2) Increase the speed of the engine (more induction strokes per unit time), and
    3) Increase the density of the air being drawn into the engine (by pressurising and cooling the air going into the intake manifold)
and the third option, although very often the most attractive, is the one that most closely follows the law of diminishing returns.
appletree wrote:Out of intrest is it the "maximum boost" book that tells you about plenum design? i tryed to find some info about the design when i made mine but could not find much, and would like to have another go. :D
No, it's A. Graham Bell's book Forced Induction Performance Tuning, published by Haynes. It's not too theoretical, and filled with practical tips.
appletree wrote:Once again Geoff thanks for your help, hopefully once i can get the engine built up and in the car i can get the car remapped and post a dyno graph like you have predicted, which must be for you a proud moment! permission to look smug :D :D :lol: :lol:
You're welcome. Glad I could help (well lets hope I did and that it works like I said it would. Otherwise good job I'm a long way away :wink: ).
GeoffBob
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Mon May 25, 2009 10:59 pm

appletree wrote:Think you've slightly misunderstud how it works from looking at the black pipe.

The pipe is just there to direct air to a different place of the enigne bay and try and make the valve abit quiter.

The air comes up through the bottom against the piston and when theres vacume the piston moves up and the air exits both sides of the valve through the trumpet and the pipe.

it can be used as either a atmospheric or a part atmospheric part recirc for cars with air flow metres that need to see a recirc at idle like the VAG 1.8 20vt lumps in the vidio i havent put the trumpet back on the valve yet :D
OK, now I understand. You're right, that black pipe had me going and it's not always that easy to work out what's what in photo's. I was convinced that black pipe went onto one of your boost pipes somewhere.

So I agree, there is definitely positive pressure working on the underside of that brass piston.

Well then, if you have a problem with surge at part throttle I would think that you would see an improvement by slacking of that spring. Although I'd fit the C30-84 compressor before making any adjustment. With the C30-84 you'll be far enough away from surge not to have to worry about a little movement in the loadline to the left. And it's a pretty good looking BOV you have there, so maybe don't go cutting that spring shorter just yet.

Great video by the way. I'll have to make some of my car and post them on You-Tube one day.
appletree
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Mon May 25, 2009 11:37 pm

Ya would love to see some vids of it, we had a bank holiday here today and after a heavy one last night i sat in the sun and read the whole of your project posts on the R5turbo clubs site, nice to see the craftmanship on the chassis, have you fitted an anti roll bar in the end?

Had to laugh at you saying about your freind with the bike helmet on, i remeber when i did the first eaton build on my car we were driving round withe the bonnet just popped with wires and pipes coming in to the front of the car with gauges and metres covering the dash while we were trying to check pressures and temps and listen out for pincking/detonation :D god knows what other drivers thought

Eaton build

http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... &start=350
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GeoffBob
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Tue May 26, 2009 10:05 am

appletree wrote:Ya would love to see some vids of it, we had a bank holiday here today and after a heavy one last night i sat in the sun and read the whole of your project posts on the R5turbo clubs site, nice to see the craftmanship on the chassis, have you fitted an anti roll bar in the end?
Thanks. Yeh, lot of work went into that chassis. Took about three months just to design it. It duplicates all the E30 suspension mounting points, so the E30 sub-frames just bolt in place just like on an E30 body. With the integral roll-cage its also pretty rigid. And not as heavy as you would think as the majority of the body is in aluminium and GRP. Only the A, B & C pillars, plus roof, are mild steel. There's two ways to get improved acceleration, one is to increase the wheel torque, the other is to reduce weight. I opted to pursue both.

I'm going without the anti-roll bars (ARB's) for the time being. The suspension is already very stiff, the car light, and the centre of gravity very low, so body roll is hardly noticable, even while cornering at speed. I still have the front and rear ARB's from the E30 and can put them back at any time, or install stiffer aftermarket ones if I want to, but with this car I just don't see the need. But then this car is very different from any other E30, so I'm sure ARB's have their place on other E30's. I do, however, have some very strong opinions with regard to ARB's, backed by solid theory and practical experience. But maybe this is a discussion for another day.
appletree wrote:Had to laugh at you saying about your freind with the bike helmet on, i remeber when i did the first eaton build on my car we were driving round withe the bonnet just popped with wires and pipes coming in to the front of the car with gauges and metres covering the dash while we were trying to check pressures and temps and listen out for pincking/detonation :D god knows what other drivers thought
You had a bonnet? Luxury, shear luxury. I started with no bonnet, doors or windows. now that brought some strange looks I can tell you, although at that stage I kept her well away from the public roads. I had nightmares about a traffic womble looking for a licence disc in a windscreen that isn't there. The windscreen that is. I figured if he asked where the licence was I could just say it fell out out at the same time as the windscreen. I'm not sure he'd see the humour in that. :D

Thanks for having a look at that page. I'm afraid I don't post there as often as I used to. That site has become so quiet that I'm thinking of retiring there one day. I haven't even bothered to post any recent photo's of the car. About time I did.
GeoffBob
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Tue May 26, 2009 1:02 pm

Matt, Just had a look at your Eaton thread. Didn't make it all the way through, but will return later.

That project must have kept you busy for a while. What made you drop the Eaton with Laminova for a Rotrex with front mounted intercooler, especially after all the work you put in?
appletree
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Tue May 26, 2009 1:22 pm

It was running to hot realy, 70'c on the charger side and my laminovas were struggling to drop the temp down below 40'c on the inlet.

And as they always say, once you have power you only want more. :twisted:
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GeoffBob
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Tue May 26, 2009 2:15 pm

Hmmm, unfortunately boost and temperature go hand in hand. That little thing called adiabatic heating I spoke about before.

Fortunately centrifugal compressors are more effcient pumps than the roots type, and thus put less heat (due to ineffciency) into the air. The adiabatic heating part you can do nothing about (short of changing the laws of physics)

At 1.5 bar boost you can expect the air coming out of your Rotrex to be at around 130'C. That's with the inlet air at 17'C at 1 bar pressure, and assuming a compressor efficiency of 75%.
appletree
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Tue May 26, 2009 3:09 pm

The thing was at 3krpm 70mph on the motor after a 10-20m the inlet temp would go up to 53c as the charge coole rad couldnt get rid of the heat quick enough even though i war running a massive jaguar xkr supercharger rad in front of the rad.

I went to the ring in it but had to fit a bonnet vent to cool the charger as it was getting realy hot at autobahn speeds.

I could have done more to develope it but i get board quick and enjoy the building more than anything else, but this project will be developed rather than rebuilt in the future due to the cost as i'm now on the property ladder.

The eaton made the car a lot more torquey low down but that pulled away from the character of the car which was more of a rev happy screamer. :twisted:
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GeoffBob
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Tue May 26, 2009 4:05 pm

Your centrifugal and roots type compressors are two very different beasts, and result in very different torque curves. Both are technically superchargers or "compound induction pumps", but they compress the air in very different ways.

A roots pump is essentially a constant volume pump. For one rotation of the pump rotor it displaces a fixed volume of air (except at low RPM where there is some leakage around the edges of the impeller). This is why the pump "speed" lines on a roots compressor map are always nearly vertical: constant speed = constant volume flow. Note I say volume flow, not mass flow. The two are very different

In theory, if your pump displaces the same volume of air as your engine, and you gear them 1:1, you will get no boost. If you gear them 1:2, then the intake pressure will be doubled, and so on. So in principle you should get a constant boost across your rev range purely due your chosen pulley ratio. In practice however, boost is somewhat reduced at low RPM due to air leakage around the impeller. It does however make for a lot more boost at low RPM (at WOT) when compared to say a centrifugal compressor (or turbocharger for that matter).

Unfortunately a rotrex centrifugal compressor will never give you back the low down torque that you had with your Eaton roots compressor since it is not a constant volume pump. It will, however, run quite a bit cooler. Your Eaton E45 probably had a maximum efficiency of somewhere around 65%, so around 45% of the work your engine was putting into driving it was going into heat. With you Rotrex you'll lose closer to 25% to heat. Unfortunately, adiabatic heating you can do nothing about, and your intercooler will just have to deal with it.
appletree
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Tue May 26, 2009 9:53 pm

Well no going back now, the chargers in the out box at work and will be posted tomorrow.

Spoke to Richard and although he said it would be a streight, hes now added a 20%handling fee which is fair enough but thats now £250-300 to swop and i may need some more oil which is £70 a litre, i should have the charger in 3-4weeks so will report back then. :?

For the best though :cool:
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GeoffBob
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Tue May 26, 2009 11:05 pm

appletree wrote:Spoke to Richard and although he said it would be a streight, hes now added a 20%handling fee which is fair enough but thats now £250-300 to swop
Ooh Err. Sorry about that.

I was only explaining the operation of the roots pump, not suggesting you should go back to one. I don't think you can go wrong with a Rotrex on your engine. As you say, for the better.
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Wed May 27, 2009 9:51 pm

Just a quicky Geoff what part of the equation relates to the compression ratio? Obviously this engine is 10:1 and the new one will be 8.5:1 but at which bit does this fit in? :D
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GeoffBob
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Thu May 28, 2009 9:04 am

Which equation? I've posted quite a few up till now. At a guess I'd say you mean the one that determines the air flow through the engine?

Well that's the thing, that's all it does is determine the air flow inducted into the engine, which is not a function of your compression ratio - so long as you take into account any change to the engines displacement volume as a a result of changing the compression ratio.

Matching a supercharger or turbocharger to an engine is basically a process of matching their mass-airflow as a function of engine RPM (or in the case of a turbocharger, air through the turbine, which in turn drives the compressor). To do this succesfully has largely to do with quantifying all air flow restrictions all the way from the air filter to the tail-pipe, as well as quantifying the volumetric efficiency of the engine.

I thought your engine was already 8.5:1 since you modified it? What do you mean "new engine". Are you getting a new one now?
appletree
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Thu May 28, 2009 9:39 am

Ahh i see now, the other book i read had a another seperate equation to work out an number that related to CR that was then put in to a larger equation like your ones on page 1.

The current one is 10.1 (that all the tests have been on as the new one ist ready yet) the one thats being built with all the forged bits will be 8.5:1 with a small over bore to freshen up the cylinders (not an overbore in the bore+stroke sense) :D :D
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GeoffBob
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Thu May 28, 2009 3:53 pm

Eeeeeek! :eek: Yee Gads, I thought your current engine was 8.5:1. No wonder you were reluctant to make any real boost. Did you not encounter any detonation during your early testing or did you always keep your revs down in order to keep your boost down?

Lowering an engines compression ratio is merely a tactic to avoid detonation at high boost. The compression ratio should really only be lowered as far as is necessary to function succesfully at given level of boost within a specific application. It is the additional boost (that is made possible by the lower compression ratio) that delivers the increased power. This is why lowering the compression ratio is so often associated with more power.

However, if you never ever operate the engine at the boost level to which its compression ratio is compatible, then lowering the compression ratio really served no purpose, and will in fact increase fuel economey due to the lower efficiency of the engine. This is why factory turboed cars tend to operate at lower boost, but with a higher compression ratio.

I'm sorry to tell you this, but I'm not sure if you won't see an overall drop in torque with the lower compression engine. Not knowing your engine personally I'm really not sure where you will stand with an 8.5:1 compression ratio, but I would suspect that it is certainly capable of handling more boost than you will get from the C30-84. Well, at least you know it will be bullet proof and not easily prone to detonation.

I can work out your ideal compression ratio for the amount of boost that you will get from you C30-84, but it's probably not worth doing as it sounds like it is too late now. I wouldn't worry though as I doubt it will work out too much higher than the value of 8.5:1 you have chosen.
appletree
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Thu May 28, 2009 6:13 pm

GeoffBob wrote:Eeeeeek! :eek: Yee Gads, I thought your current engine was 8.5:1. No wonder you were reluctant to make any real boost. Did you not encounter any detonation during your early testing or did you always keep your revs down in order to keep your boost down?
Ive had the engine remapped till the charger made 10psi (what it ran on the eaton still with 10:1cr) so that i then had a correct, or as close as i could get map to run the new engine in on once it was built untill i could get some miles on it for it to be mapped again properly to the red line at what ever boost it made :D

I'am still on the origonal 10:1 engine as the other has not been built yet. :D

The charger hasn't been sent yet as i rang the store man and told him to leave it a few days untill i had had a think about my options. :mad:
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ShepsEvo3
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Thu May 28, 2009 10:57 pm

Matt, great thread. Just had time to sit down and read through all that and its things that makes sence, but its being able to explain them as Geoff does which is the difficult bit.

Looks like you're getting there though mate! Keep up the good work :D
E30 M3 Unichip Alpha N style conversions, this is the ultimate for extracting the best out of your S14 M power car.
Also, Live mapping of your Standard Motronic ECU for optimising all your modifications.
www.sabre-tuning.co.uk
appletree
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Thu May 28, 2009 11:43 pm

Thanks but its more Geoff realy.
:cool:

I'm just trying to get some thing that works. Lol
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GeoffBob
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Fri May 29, 2009 9:45 am

ShepsEvo3 wrote:Matt, great thread. Just had time to sit down and read through all that and its things that makes sence, but its being able to explain them as Geoff does which is the difficult bit.

Looks like you're getting there though mate! Keep up the good work :D
Thanks for that Shep! Your comment is greatly appreciated. It's great to have someone like Appletree who asks these sort of questions. I'm not the most experienced in this area on this forum, but I have some teaching experience, so I think I may have developed a knack for getting the info across.

If I can be of help by sharing my knowledge with others, then I am happy to do so. However, I'm anxious to fill in the gaps where I am ignorant, if anyone else wants to contribute. 'Never too old to learn.

Thanks again for the comment,
Geoff
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Fri May 29, 2009 12:36 pm

After being captivated by this thread and trying to keep up with all the calculations ( I don't exactly understand them yet can sort of follow the theory :eek: ) something that has not been mentioned in the debate of C30 -94 Vs C30-84 is the possibility of increasing the Engine to a 2.0 or even 2.1 litre.

Matt if you are building another bottom end why not go the M47 Crank route??? Although this would still not be ideal for the C30 - 94 it would be better surely.

Especially as you are now looking at another ~£350 just to swap the Charger over.

My 2 cents worth.

Mick
appletree
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Fri May 29, 2009 6:41 pm

Mick, thanks for the idea.

Theres been a few PMs and calls made about an surtain M47 crank. Just getin some info on all the options before i decide.

Either way the -94 is still abit on the big side for a 2ltr so ive sent the -94 to be swopped for a -84 regardless.

Only issue ive got with running an 88mm crank over the 81mm is the side wall of the piston is smaller (not as much in contact with the cylinder wall to guide the piston and keep it square) and another person whos running 18psi on the same set up is having trouble with the side walls marking.

We'll see, stroker would be nice winkeye winkeye
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Kit_L
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Sun May 31, 2009 11:32 am

custom pistons?

:p
appletree
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Sun May 31, 2009 2:51 pm

its having JE forged pistons 8.5:1 but they sent the wrong ones. :(
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GeoffBob
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Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:06 pm

Pitty Wiseco don't do pistons for BMW's.

The most visible difference between standard and forged pistons is the piston skirt, which is usually reduced on pistons for sport applications. So I guess you could run into problems on a stroker, although I have no personal experience with this. I tend to stick with pistons advertised as tried and tested for a specific application. That's not to say your JE's won't work - if they could just send you the right ones!
appletree
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Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:12 pm

Been thinking about the stroker and i'm going to leave it as a 1.8, partly because of the cost and partly because of the issues with the bore wear.

TTS have received the rotrex and are waiting for the -84 to come in :D
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GeoffBob
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Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:19 pm

Any word on the pistons and C30-84 yet Matt?
appletree
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Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:47 pm

Charger should be hear end of the month all being well once rotrex make some more. :D

Engines going to be end of july early august. The heads built and the flywheels done apart from balancing. Just waiting on pistons. Custom pistons take 6weeks to do as the shedule them in to production you can pay more and get them sooner but i aint that rich.

Ill probly fit the -84 get it mapped do some more testing for the fun of it then build the engine up over winter and take my time rather than try and rush it for this year. :cool:
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GeoffBob
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Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:15 am

Matt, just out of interest, where does that M47 crank herald from? Is that an E36 motor? Sorry, but I'm not so hot on remembering engine designations. I have a hard enough time keeping track of the M10 and M20 engines.
appletree
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Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:50 pm

Its from a e46 deisel in different forms M47-M47n its also found in rover deisels but has a shorter nose but you can extend them.

http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... 69&start=0
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GeoffBob
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Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:31 pm

Ta.
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Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:39 pm

Great topic, and Geoff, just read your e30/R5 build. Excellent craftsmanship and stunning attention to detail. Hopefully you can get it on the road in SA - although as you say it's not really suitable for the road, the ability to do shakedown testing on local roads has to be a huge advantage.

Please do a thread about it on here, people would be fascinated i'm sure! :D
GeoffBob
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Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:17 pm

shalmaneser wrote:Great topic, and Geoff, just read your e30/R5 build. Excellent craftsmanship and stunning attention to detail. Hopefully you can get it on the road in SA - although as you say it's not really suitable for the road, the ability to do shakedown testing on local roads has to be a huge advantage.

Please do a thread about it on here, people would be fascinated i'm sure! :D
Many thanks Shalmaneser. I greatly appreciate you comment.

I keep meaning to setup a project thread here but never seem to get to it - too busy meddling in other peoples threads I think :D I will get to it one day, I promise.

BTW, if I get caught testing her on local roads I could be in a lot of trouble. I sneak her round the back of the neighbourhood to an open area for a bit of play every now and then, but getting in and out of our suburb can be touch and go. I'm waiting for the day when Mr Plod pulls me over. For any significant testing I have to take her down to the track on a trailer, which is probably a good thing.

Regards
Geoff
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Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:36 pm

Hi, what might you suggest for someone wanting to cheaply (comparitively) roots type supercharge a stock M42 with the stock 10.5:1 compression Geoff?

thanks, Steve.
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Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:26 pm

Stock comp is 10:1, i did it with a roots type using a eaton m45 charger from a mini cooper s and got 200+bhp as did hoshy, rix313 is doing the swop now, have a search "eaton" /"Supercharger" in this section :cool:
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Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:45 pm

was that 200hp@ the wheels?
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