My LPG install thread ;)

[Ricksta]

Its interesting to read the last few posts and see people having similar problems to myself!

When I first set used my LPG on the 325i I had not connected the O2 sensor or the TPS and it actually ran fine, I then connected the TPS the next day and it would run ok, but stall every time I pulled up and it didnt find idle.
I than connected up the O2 sensor and it was fine again! found its idle, running fine across the board, BUT I soon discovered the LPG economy was not very good! I got 150 miles from £27 of Gas!! which worked out to approx 3.75 miles per litre!
Over the next few tanks this improved slightly to 4.5 or so mlies per litre, not that good as I was getting 28mpg on petrol, so I thought it must be a problem with the LPG ECU, I have not had much luck with laptop (packed up) and lead difficult to make!
So I disconnected the power to the ECU to reset the settings, which caused it to loose its ability to idle! and now its hunting on idle form 500rpm to 1200rpm or sometimes its idles perfectly. I have ordered a New O2 sensor as the one which came with my secondhand kit was looking old and I can only assume that both the Poor mpg and the idle problems are down to the sensor?
I will update once my sensor has been changed.

[Jon_Bmw]

Mine would only stall after I hooked up the heater wires for the lambda sensor, strange really. I am getting 28mpg out of my LPG and that hasn't changed.

I just need to hook it up to the laptop and stop talking about doing it.

[Brianmoooore]

I just need to hook it up to the laptop and stop talking about doing it.

Sounds like quite a few of you need to do this!
How you all expect to hook up a complete new fuel system to a car, and for it to run faultlessly with absolutely no setting up, is beyond me!

[gareth]

i feel like i should go and sit on the naughty step for 28 minutes now...

in my defence , my kit was removed from the exact same engine and i never expected it to run. the fact it did run was a bonus though!

the search for a cheap laptop continues.....

[Ricksta]

i feel like i should go and sit on the naughty step for 28 minutes now...

in my defence , my kit was removed from the exact same engine and i never expected it to run. the fact it did run was a bonus though!

the search for a cheap laptop continues.....

PMSL!!

I was working on a similar principal as my kit came off an E34 535i and as it ran upon install and I have to use the car for work AND I am trying to fix my laptop and build some sort of lead!
Of course Brian is right as usual we should'nt expect it to run without proper set up!
But in the same breath my car has to run very often without the parts it requires for Optimum performance as I simply DO NOT have enough money!

[Ricksta]

I tell you what Gareth, have you managed to build an interface lead which works??
I will be at my Dads this weekend sometime trying to reinstall a working operating system to my old laptop, if it works and I can get it to see the leonardo software I have downloaded onto a USB stick, I will let you know, and maybe I can call round sometime in the next few weekends and let you use my laptop to setup if I can borrow your lead at the same time?

[gareth]

now that my good fellow sounds like an awesome plan i have a lead with a RS232 connector on (i cheated and bought one) does your laptop have one on these antiquated connectors still? if not, i'll get a USB / RS232 interface lead sorted.

i also have some software.
the one i have is the middle one http://www.tinleytech.co.uk/acatalog/So ... leads.html

[Ricksta]

Oh yes its got RS232, its a pretty olde worlde laptop! I just need to get the damn thing out of the dos and load on an operating system windows 98 will do fine if i can get it to recognise the cd rom!!!

I will let you know when I get it running or not during the weekend, fingers crossed! I dont want to buy a laptop! as this one is an old work one.

[gareth]

cool, keep me posted

[Brianmoooore]

The laptop I bought doesn't even have a CD drive, and pre dates USB connectors by several years.
I forget what I paid for it now, but I know that the gas I used to pick it up just about doubled the cost.
USB interface leads tend to give problems, from what I've heard.

[gareth]

i've been keeping an eye on ebay for a local outdated steam powered £20 laptop but nothing so far... i want one with a monochrome screen! my stepdad used to have one! it was like a suitcase!!!!

[stonesie]

Yes usb interface leads give problems...... as in mine won't work at all

The old PC now lives on the garage bench for tweaking but it means i can't see whats going on while im driving, i will try a serial adaptor next (Again- the last one wouldn't work) and see what happens.

[Ricksta]

My Laptop problems seem to escalate at every turn!!!!
having established that the cd rom would not work, I bought a USB memory stick and loaded the AEB leonardo software onto this, unfortunatley however the laptop could not see the USB!!! missing driver or something, so win98 disc inserted to load drivers and ..... system crashed completely!!!!!
Laptop now cannot recognise cd rom and will only see the A drive (floppy disc which swaps for the cd rom)
So..... I try to load windows 3.1 ! .... and laptop says directory I wish to load operating system to does not exist!!! does that mean C drive is fooooked???!?
I dont want to spend any money on another hard disc as its an old work laptop not mine, so currently in the process of aquiring one of these free laptops, just trying to find a suitable deal where the contract does not cost more than the laptop!!!!

[gareth]

i hate computers!!!!!!

[Brianmoooore]

Just found and read your entire thread on the LPG forum, Gareth.
I see the problem turned out to be something quite simple and fundamental in the end, as these sort of things usually do!
As you found out, the laptop soon told you what the problem was, even if it took a while to track down the actual cause.
Trust you're now reaping the rewards of cheap(er) motoring.

[gareth]

hehe, wondered if you might spot that! They're a helpful lot on there though it'd odd being on such a 'small' forum
Glad it's sorted now and i now have a much better understanding of all the bits i 'threw on there' originally

this evening i've been out driving the thing, just for the hell of it as it's so cheap to do!

still baffled as the the origin of the black goop that clogged everything up. it's not like i've done that many miles on gas, probably less than 5k. Seems an excessive rate to clog up. have you seen this in your many thousands of miles on LPG?

for the benefit of everyone else who reads this, here's the thread in question
http://my90.co.uk/lpg/viewtopic.php?t=6 ... sc&start=0

Ricksta, i have (until i give it back...) a laptop all set up and ready to play if you need a hand with yours? failing that, i've also got a 17 metre long RS232 extension lead to plug my leonardo into my pc... in the house! not ideal but it means i can do small tweaks.

[Brianmoooore]

Yes, I think you can now consider yourself to be an expert on Leonardo LPG systems!
The black gloop is known as heavy ends, and it only takes one fill up of poor gas to get it in your system.
Very small amounts of the stuff are common, but I've never had any trouble at all. I did strip a vapouriser down off one of my cars a while back, trying to nail the only fault I've ever had (dud stepper motor), and there was only traces of the stuff present, which I wiped out with a rag.

[gareth]

Expert... far from it! i need to get the vaporisor fine tuning done yet (though it seems pretty much spot on purely by accident ) and set the stepper limits set which seems to be a bit of an unknown quantity. good fun learning it all though

incidentally, from when it was running nicely before, i have noticed a bit of an improvement now i have an increased CR (increased from 9:1 up to 9.8:1) so i might have a play with my ignition advance module too soo. then maybe try a better / larger mixer as i'm not convinced the one i have is large enough

I'm not sure the stuff i have is heavy ends as i gather that's a oily / waxy deposit. what i found was a dry ferrous black powder (was stuck to the magnetic parts round the solenoids / coils). maybe the LPG tank at my local BP is rusty on the inside?!!!!!

[Andy335Touring]

Fancy buying my Innovate WB02 so you can play with your fuelng ?

[gareth]

Alright Andy, not seen you on here in a while

wossat then? wideband oxygen sensor?
I do have an oxygen sensor fitted as part of the leonardo setup, this gives me a real time voltage readout and visual lean/normal/rich display on the software.

[Andy335Touring]

Yep, wide band, better for tuning, used it with my Emerald ECU on my old car.

What sort of readings do you get out of yours at the mo ?

[gareth]

it's a 0-1V squarewave job. just a cheap universal 3 wire sensor.

[Andy335Touring]

Is your ECU software WB capable ?

[gareth]

not sure, i can select various sensor types but without plugging it into the car, i can't start the software to see what the setteings are - it's a little quirky!

[Brianmoooore]

Leonardo software doesn't have a capability to use a wideband sensor, and TBH, I can't see much use for it, as the Leonardo auto tunes to keep the narrow band sensor switching all the time. The only adjustments you can do are to make sure there's enough gas available to allow the engine to run at full power, and to make sure there isn't so much gas that the stepper has to nearly close at idle. These things are largely taken care of by the different vacuum levels produced by the venturi section of the mixer, with the stepper just trimming the mixture.
A wideband would possibly be of use when fine tuning the map on a multipoint system that uses modified petrol injector pulses, or you might just get some usefull data with a Leonardo set up, when setting up the wide open throttle stepper limits.
The thing is that LPG is such a superior fuel to petrol in every way, except energy density, that things don't have to be so accurate. An engine will develop good power on LPG over a much wider air/fuel ratio on gas than it will on petrol.
I frequently run engines with no fuel/faulty fuel systems, by just sticking the nozzle of my gas blowlamp (3.5Kg propane cylinder) down the air intake, and adjusting the gas flow very crudely so that they sound happy. Things like lawn mowers, etc. around here are always brought out of their seasonal slumber by this method.

[gareth]

my only complaint with the LPG system is a tendancy to run hotter, which is a bit of a pain as i struggle to keep my M30 cool when pushed.
Maybe a brand new rad will cure things, it just doesn't seem to have much spare capacity when squeezed into the small engine bay

[gareth]

just another update for anyone following this.
looks like i've cooked another oxygen sensor el-cheapo ones are definately to be avoided! I've read on the LPG forum that NGK (NTK) ones and Bosch ones are the only ones to have, the others ar all cheapo universal ones that don't like LPG at all

i got a fault light on the leonardo fuel switch, plugged it into the PC (after a while , it came on during the zone roam ) and all three fault codes were present: oxygen sensor fault, mixture lean for too long and... the other one which escapes me for now (can't start the program to check now the car is unplugged)

it was running absolutely fine though but the giveaway was the economy... it dropped from the usual 18mpg down to 14mpg, then on the last fill, 10.7mpg!!!! the stepper default had tried to compensate for the 'weak' mixture the oxygen sensor was reading (due to failure) and had set the default to 248!!! as a temporary fix until a new sensor is fitted, i've set the leonardo to lock the stepper at the default value it had settled to when healthy (118) as it very rarely varied from that value after some careful tweaking on the vaporisor. hopefully i'll get a bit more economy on the next fill-up! i feel £17.20 for 75 miles is not healthy LPG economy!

[StuBeeDoo]

i feel £17.20 for 75 miles is not healthy LPG economy!

Bugggerrrrrr!!
I think I'm hard-done-to if I spend that sort of money for 160 miles.....

[Brianmoooore]

Only plus point is that you're not ruining your cylinder walls like you would be with petrol if running that rich!
Where do you have the lambda fitted? I've never had one fail in ten years of LPG running! The original was a cheapie, and that was replaced by a Ford one about three years ago, when I inncorrectly suspected a fault with the original.

[gareth]

the lambda is fitted in one downpipe, about 100mm from the downpipe to manifold joint.
both of the ones i've had were branded 'Fuel Parts'. aka cheapo chinese tat inc.

if it was that rich on petrol, i doubt it would even run! 50%+ over fueling . it's a credit to who tolerant LPG is to various engines / mixtures etc i suppose. anything will run on the stuff! The best i've seen is a rolls royce meteor (non supercharged version of the merlin spitfire engine) powered rover SD1 on LPG. built by one of the PPC staff members. awesome machine and i suspect a little juicy being 27 litres of V12

[Andy335Touring]

Where in the pipe is your sensor mounted ?

I don't know if it's the same for yours but on my old WB02 sensor it said in the instructions not to mount it at the bottom of the pipe due to condensation/water damaging the sensor ?

I could do with LPG on my E34 525 touring, it's a bit juicy compaired to my old french turd !

[TheHeap]

where's best to mount the leonardo ECU?

I put mine behind the glovebox.

is there room? looks bloody tight last time i was there... i'll have a butchers.
how about under the heater / behind the centre console? i had an amp in there before on mine! didn't know it was there til i removed the console!

won't it get a bit hot there? can't you put itbehind the ashtray or in the footwell?

[TheHeap]

my only complaint with the LPG system is a tendancy to run hotter, which is a bit of a pain as i struggle to keep my M30 cool when pushed.
Maybe a brand new rad will cure things, it just doesn't seem to have much spare capacity when squeezed into the small engine bay

if you can't fit a bigger rad, why not fit 2 more rads in the lower part of the front bumper. one either side maybe where the brake duckts are (where they put them in the AUDI s3's)
you can use 2 honda cb900 blade ones.


i had to do this sort of thing to my rennie 5 to keep the temp down.

[gareth]

Where in the pipe is your sensor mounted ?

I don't know if it's the same for yours but on my old WB02 sensor it said in the instructions not to mount it at the bottom of the pipe due to condensation/water damaging the sensor ?

I could do with LPG on my E34 525 touring, it's a bit juicy compaired to my old french turd !

the lambda is fitted in one downpipe, about 100mm from the downpipe to manifold joint.

[gareth]

I put mine behind the glovebox.

is there room? looks bloody tight last time i was there... i'll have a butchers.
how about under the heater / behind the centre console? i had an amp in there before on mine! didn't know it was there til i removed the console!

won't it get a bit hot there? can't you put itbehind the ashtray or in the footwell?

It's fitted above the glovebox. snug would be the best word to describe it!