Thanks all you E30 zoners out there, couple more things

[MattMatt]

Thanks to everyone who's posted on my 'Your knowledge could really help me' about ICE in my 320.

Couple more things.

1. I've now invested in a Nakamichi CD45Z head unit

2. What speakers for the front should I pair with it - budget less than £200 ideally.

3. Do I really need an amp/will it make a big difference for a budget unit?

4. Does anyone have an enthusiast/fitter contact in the London area (I'm in North West London but will happily travel) who can help me with installing all of the above, especially with some soundproofing of the doors if people feel this will significantly improve the sound quality.

Thanks everyone out there,

I'm getting my car ready for summer....

Matt.

[Ziggy]

1. Good choice!

2. Have a look somewhere like here - there are plenty of really nice 5.25" component setups for less than £200.

3. No/Yes! You can get away without (& add one later?), but an amp will make a big difference. Think about how much space there is inside a headunit after you've fitted the CD drive, processor etc in there. I.E: not a lot!

4. Sure someone local can help with that...

[moh110]

im in east london, will be mroe than willing to help you with the fitting/advice on which speakers you need, or if an amp is needed. pm me

[miniblob]

MattMatt - replied to you're pm!!

Just to add - as a personal choice, i'd go for something like this, although i'm sure you would be just as happy with plenty of the cheaper sets!! Just find somewhere to have a listen before you buy!!

One other thing to mention - the more you spend on the components, the less you want to underpower them from the headunit and risk distorting/damaging them.
Not trying to scare you off, they will be fine as long as you don't push the h/u too hard!! Distortion is one of the things that kills speakers!!

Maybe consider spending slightly less on the speakers and get an amp sooner???
You'll have something perfectly acceptable, while saving for even better fronts/amps (if you even feel the need!!)

Rainbow/Hertz/DLS are all good brands and all do components for around the £120/130 mark. Could even get a good second hand 2ch amp to run them from the off, with the money you save!!

[mrLEE30]

I am sorry to point out miniblog that the distortion you hear from the good quality/correctly rated speakers connected to a bad amp or the headunit are nothing to do with the speakers, it is the amp clipping and this is the distortion you hear - this is a direct result of the amp being cheap and not able to handle the high levels of output voltage required to drive a speaker loud. I can see no reason why this would cause any damage to a good quality speaker, it will just sound terrible and if anything cause damage to the headunit amp - as heat is built up and cannot be dissipated thus casuing damage to componants.

I would go for better quality speakers and fit them correctly, then listen to them within the confines fo the amp/headunit. Once you have enough to buy an amp you then already have the speakers fitted suitable to the amp - this saves money in the long run and saves time when you do buy an amp as the fiddly part of installing speakers is completed.

As for what brands are available you will have more information then me!!

mrlee

[Morat]

I thought clipping did damage speakers?

[Ziggy]

An amp over-driven sufficiently to clip (significantly - so your're getting something that looks more like a square wave), will be delivering a lot more average power (& not in a good way) than it should be. Voice coils aren't designed to cope with a constant signal (ie a square wave rather than a sine wave) & will be damaged at a lower current than with a clean non-clipped signal.

A 5w over-driven amp is never going to damage a speaker thats rated for 50w, but a 50w amp driven to the max is far more likely to melt the voice coils than a 100w amp used sensibly.

[mrLEE30]

if you take a clipped wave and compare it to the full wave it cannot have more power. it is clipped at the maximum voltage level able to be handled by the amp, but if the wave were a full sinusoidal wave it would demostrate the same characteristics upto the point where the clipped signal is clipped, and thus to that point the same power, the full wave would then go on to reach its peak value and back down and include all the power up to that point. so if you can damage a speaker with a clipped wave then the speaker is too small for the full wave, and thus an incorrect speaker i.e too small for the amp. I do agree voice coils (or any coil for that matter thanks to our old friend Faradays law) are not happy with square waves but a small (clipped) square wave will not damage a correctly sized speaker.

a 50W amp driven hard will of course damage a 50w speaker quicker than a 50W speaker driven sensibly by a 100W amp, but if you drive a full 50W from the 100W amp then it will also damage the coils, perhaps not as quickly but result is the same

hence why i suggested he buy speakers and listen to them initially with in the confines of the head unit amp!!

[Morat]

/me fetches coat

[mrLEE30]

No its a very good point, running a powerful square wave (which is essentially what a clipped signal is) through a voice coil in a speaker is no good as the rapid change in current/voltage leads to a rapid change in electromagnetic fields which is either opposed or attracted by the permament magnet, this means the cone moves wildly which causes damage and sounds 5h!TE. plus higher currents will lead to additional heating and eventually magnetic saturation of the coil, the coil impedance is altered under saturation and thus the current is increased which leads to more heating of the coils and eventually failure, my point was it will not damage anything if you have decent speakers capable of handling a decent amount of power and rated to handle the peak power of the amp.

I was only really pointing out that miniblobs suggestion was one i disagreed with, he should buy good quality speakers, listen to them sensibly and buy an amp later. this way he will not damage anything!!

mrlee

[miniblob]

Sorry MrLee, didn't make myself 100% clear there!!! Nothing to disagree with mate, i have mostly the same opinion/understanding as yourself!!

Only disagreement i have is that i understand the theory, but i do feel that distortion damages speakers - be it over a period of time, or whatever - and have witnessed that!!!! Regardless of amp/speaker combo!!!

I purely meant that if you spend £200 on components, you want to be a bit more careful not to give them a distorted/clipped signal from the head unit, which could damage them before you get the chance to buy a decent amp!!!
If you're only ever gonna spend the £200 total, you may prefer the sound of £100 components on a good amp, to the sound of £200 components run from a struggling h/u!!!

Does that make sense?? You explain it a lot better than me MrLee!! Lol!!!

At the end of the day, it's all down to personal preferance really!!
Personally, i have spent a lot more on components

[mrLEE30]

I agree with you when you say good speakers on a poor amp will sound poor, and yes he is better getting an amp and speakers rather then good speakers driven from the H/U, perhaps i misunderstood your suggestions, i thought you were advising matt to buy speakers now then later on when he can afford a better amp to buy some better speakers, i thought it better to buy good speakers now while he can afford, run them from the H/U amp (at lower volume) andthen later he can buy a good amp and the speakers to match are already installed, but it seems you said basically the same thing!!

I am in the same boat, i am currently installing a stereo in my sport, i have bought an Alpine H/U which is very good, but now i cannot afford to spend on amp/speakers, so i have from my wifes car a set of 6x9 and a 222Xplod amp, not stuff to write home about but OK for now. However my plans for the system will take time/money but i cannot splash out all at once, So i have got the H/U (Alpine 9887 I think?) and i have wired it in ready with 3 RCA for front/rear/sub. I am running the 6x9 from the Xplod for now, but soon plan is to amp the front/rear from a 4 channel and a sub...but the point i am getting to, i have made everything ready for my final installation, i.e. the RCA cables are in so no need to pull carpets up again, the wring for the front speakers is in, but not connected as running temporarily from BMW installed speaker wires driven by H/U - this way the majority of work is done and does not need repeating, now i only need to 4 channel/front componants (and rear 6x9 may stay) wiring is all in and RCA leads ready, so once cash allows simple job. Sub will follow later (but i have already opened the rear ski hatch etc).

Anyway i'll shut up now!!

mrlee

[Ziggy]

if you take a clipped wave and compare it to the full wave it cannot have more power. it is clipped at the maximum voltage level able to be handled by the amp, but if the wave were a full sinusoidal wave it would demostrate the same characteristics upto the point where the clipped signal is clipped, and thus to that point the same power, the full wave would then go on to reach its peak value and back down and include all the power up to that point. so if you can damage a speaker with a clipped wave then the speaker is too small for the full wave, and thus an incorrect speaker i.e too small for the amp. I do agree voice coils (or any coil for that matter thanks to our old friend Faradays law) are not happy with square waves but a small (clipped) square wave will not damage a correctly sized speaker.

a 50W amp driven hard will of course damage a 50w speaker quicker than a 50W speaker driven sensibly by a 100W amp, but if you drive a full 50W from the 100W amp then it will also damage the coils, perhaps not as quickly but result is the same

hence why i suggested he buy speakers and listen to them initially with in the confines of the head unit amp!!

A square wave will have significantly more area under the curve than a sine wave with the same peak. What does that tell you?

A square wave also gives a constant voltage rather than a varying one - the variation is what makes them move, and moving through the air is what (helps to) keep them cool... Not sure if that'd be significant though!

Anyway, same overall points!

[Ziggy]

a 50W amp driven hard will of course damage a 50w speaker quicker than a 50W speaker driven sensibly by a 100W amp, but if you drive a full 50W from the 100W amp then it will also damage the coils, perhaps not as quickly but result is the same

hence why i suggested he buy speakers and listen to them initially with in the confines of the head unit amp!!

Don't agree with that bit though - a 100w amp driven to 50w shouldn't damage a speaker that's rated to cope with 50w. A "50w" headunit amp driven hard enough to produce levels that a buyer would expect their nice new setup to be able to produce though...

Not quite as much risk as that of the lot getting thrown out when it doesn't sound anywhere near as good as it should because of the weedy amp though...

[mrLEE30]

A square wave will have significantly more area under the curve than a sine wave with the same peak. What does that tell you?

i dont think you understood what i was getting at!! i mean two wavers that would have the same peak value..

if the wave were a full sinusoidal wave it would demostrate the same characteristics upto the point where the clipped signal is clipped, and thus to that point the same power, the full wave would then go on to reach its peak value and back down and include all the power up to that point

a wave like this..



where the area under the red clipped wave is the clipped power but the black full wave has this red area plus the additional black area and therefore more power... thats what i was trying to explain!!!

a 50W amp driven hard will of course damage a 50w speaker quicker than a 50W speaker driven sensibly by a 100W amp, but if you drive a full 50W from the 100W amp then it will also damage the coils, perhaps not as quickly but result is the same

typo (need to proof read my posts!!) meant to say a 50W speaker driven by a full 100W unclipped - to state a case for my view that the speaker should be matched to the amp and it wont be damaged!

Unfortunately the topic of car audio is a subjective one, i.e you will never get two people to agree on the best set up/speakers/amp etc etc etc!!!

As long as you enjoy your tunes in your car with the best set up you can afford then happy days!!

mrlee