Hartge H36 Project (E30 M3 with S38 M5 engine)

[Theo]

Hi Matt, not got round to tracing the wires on that black box, so it remains a mystery.

Have dug up lots more info on the car, and have a copy of a letter from Hartge confirming the full spec when it was converted and the cost. In addition to this I have a letter from BMW which states, amongst other things, that the car was supplied without a p/mac number stamped on the chassis plate.

I have also found out that the Hartge chassis number for the H35-24 that was on ebay recently starts W09H35x03 whereas mine is W09H36x02 showing that Hartge did differentiate between the cars which were fitted with the M88 engine and those fitted with the S38. I would love to know how many were made with the S38. I've tracked down another H35-24 which lives in Sweden and has the M88 fitted. So that's 2 red H35-24's which live in England, one red one in Sweden and of course my H36. There are supposedly two red H35-24's in California, and there's a black one pictured in a couple of articles on e30.de.

[a_kara]

how many of the cars are "real cars" and how many are "conversions"

Hartge still offer this conversion, but as fas as i know only 6 cars were factory built and a few more have had the conversion after

[Theo]

Well I assume if it has a Hartge chassis number, it's a factory conversion.

[a_kara]

Well I assume if it has a Hartge chassis number, it's a factory conversion.

i would agree with that, but factory conversions are still available

what i'd like to know when tracing a cars history is, and i may i may have missed something from this thread, but have you had any confirmation from hartge to confirm if this was built from a shell supplied by bmw from new ? or was the car driven to them to cary out a conversion later in in its life?

as far as i know 6 cars were built from new.

as with anything so unique its hard to trace and confirm what is what, i just hope you can trace all relevant documents and what when and how the original build was done

just want to wish you good luck

[Theo]

Well, I have the afforementioned letter from BMW confirming it was supplied without a P/MAC number stamped on the chassis plate. I think given the circumstances it is reasonable to assume it was supplied like this because it was going straight to Hartge.

This is quoted from the letter in question

BMW (GB) Ltd does not hold National Type Approval Certification for this vehicle. However, it is similar to the M3 2-door saloon left-hand drive (P/MAC 0050518V) apart from the following points which apply to the vehicle when originally manufactured:

1. KMH speedometer
2. Headlamps for right-hand dipping
3. No P/MAC number stamped onto vehicle chassis plate
4. No side direction indicators
5. Hartge engine 3600cc developing 243kw
6. Hartge rear axle
7. Hartge steering wheel
8. Hartge 7.5J x 16 front wheels with 225/50 VR16 tyres
9. Hartge 8.5J x 16 rear wheels with 245/45 VR16 tyres
10. Hartge spoilers
11. Hartge suspension
12. Hartge braking system
13. Hartge fuel tank
14. Hartge single arm wiper system

[a_kara]

Well, I have the afforementioned letter from BMW confirming it was supplied without a P/MAC number stamped on the chassis plate. I think given the circumstances it is reasonable to assume it was supplied like this because it was going straight to Hartge.

This is quoted from the letter in question

BMW (GB) Ltd does not hold National Type Approval Certification for this vehicle. However, it is similar to the M3 2-door saloon left-hand drive (P/MAC 0050518V) apart from the following points which apply to the vehicle when originally manufactured:

1. KMH speedometer
2. Headlamps for right-hand dipping
3. No P/MAC number stamped onto vehicle chassis plate
4. No side direction indicators
5. Hartge engine 3600cc developing 243kw
6. Hartge rear axle
7. Hartge steering wheel
8. Hartge 7.5J x 16 front wheels with 225/50 VR16 tyres
9. Hartge 8.5J x 16 rear wheels with 245/45 VR16 tyres
10. Hartge spoilers
11. Hartge suspension
12. Hartge braking system
13. Hartge fuel tank
14. Hartge single arm wiper system

real deal by the looks of it

[Theo]

Yeah, I think so too.

The shell was built by BMW in december 1989 and the car had been fully converted and sold by april 1992.

I wonder if there is another S38 engine'd car built from new out there?

[evosport1990]

Theo, you might want to speak to the guys @ Munich Legends about your new car, i am sure that i saw it down there in the their yard, was having a new sump fitted as old one removed by raised man hole cover. I believe the local council paid for a new one.

I believe the car was once owned by someone high up in the BMW owners club, he passed away and was left to his wife saw sold it on. I remember seeing an article about it in either BMW Car or Total BMW mag, pics were taken of it at the RING, and think it had Alpina stickers on the side.

Hope this sheds some more light on your purchase, and give you some more things to look in to.

Please keep me posted

[Theo]

Thanks for the post, you're right the sump has been replaced in the past. I was under the impression that it was taken to Birds but they couldn't replace the sump as they are NLA so another one was fabricated at a not insignificant cost. Perhaps it has had a couple over the years? I've also been told that this car was 'relieved' of a nice parts whilst being looked after by Munich Legends, but they fronted up for the bits. I also have various invoices from them, one of which includes the trailing arm bushes, which is interesting given the state of them.

I've managed to track down a large chunk of history and their are numerous invoices for the car over the years, both from Germany and England. In this data I have found that a pair of front discs (not with the bells) comes in at a cool £560. Thankfully, all the discs on the car are near-new.

I've also managed to get hold of a copy BMWcar May 2004 edition where the car was featured, the Alpina decals are truly shocking.

[toby]

Can you scan in a pic and show Theo?

[Theo]

Here you go Toby, the first scan is of a double spread and i'm not clever enough to scan both pages and merge them together.

[toby]

What shell is this going into then?

Does it have to stay LHD?

What about the M5 deviation you mentioned?

[Jhonno]

What shell is this going into then?

Does it have to stay LHD?

M3 shell..

YES!!

[Theo]

It's going into another M3 shell, though I haven't found one yet. It could never go in a RHD car because of the exhaust manifold. It amazes me how Hayward and Scott made a manifold for Karan's 336 now, as there is so little space down there.

With the M5, I opted against it in the end. Partly because it was actually very uninspiring to drive and would have needed many hours of servicing and fiddling. I also thought that I was wanting it for the wrong reasons, namely convenience (it was 5 miles from my house). If I were to get an M5 I would get a better one, in a colour I like with history etc. I think it's unlikely I'll get one now, will stick with the 325i until insurance is out in August by which point I hope this H36 will be done.

[pacerpete]

Theo, you might want to speak to the guys @ Munich Legends about your new car, i am sure that i saw it down there in the their yard, was having a new sump fitted as old one removed by raised man hole cover. I believe the local council paid for a new one.

I believe the car was once owned by someone high up in the BMW owners club, he passed away and was left to his wife saw sold it on. I remember seeing an article about it in either BMW Car or Total BMW mag, pics were taken of it at the RING, and think it had Alpina stickers on the side.

Hope this sheds some more light on your purchase, and give you some more things to look in to.

Please keep me posted

Actually the car sat for many months out the back of munich legends while they tried to figure out how to bodge the sump, inspiration wasn't forthcoming and Wendy was getting impatient so the car was transported to Birds to be finally repaired.
Alas during its tenure up Barneys back passage some council type relieved it of its original sport evolution rear wing and lots of other parts. I believe all was made good but rather worrying all the same for those that entrust their cherished exotics with munich legends !

[hartgefan]

can i just say how much im enjoying this post,fascinating stuff keep it up and good luck with the project theo

[barryj]

You have to ask why the Alpina decals? I can almost understand when c council type does it to a 316 (I did it back in the day!) but to apply them to a Hartge H36 beggars belief TBH.

Great thread.

[bss325i]

M, HARTGE and ALPINA all on one car?!

Was it that manly chicks doing?

Theo what does the feature say?

[E30BeemerLad]

I envy you of the finished article here Theo, but i don't envy the road leading upto that point.

Quite a bit of history you've acquired here

[GrindCulture]

This really will be quite a machine when it's finished. Wish you all the best with it! Looks like you'll need it to be honest!

0-60 in 5.6 with a top speed of 172 mph =

[bss325i]

Theo I worry about you.. Not wanting to take this Hero Chariot to its true home, wanting something soft and squishy to drive because the roads are a little rough.. You are getting old before your time

Yeah Theo, even a woman has driven this round the ring!

[bmwsport]

Hmm, i think the author had his wires crossed when writing the second page as he states they also own a Hartge H28 M5... There is no such thing, otherwise they would have took out the M5 engine and put in a 528i

[Theo]

The sighting of an E30 M3 parked up in the paddock at the legendary Nurburgring's Nordschliefe is nothing new. No matter the event, the time of the year or the 'Ring's unique ecosystem it would be safe to bet your lif savings that there'll be an e30 primed to tackle the 12.9 mile, 170-corner Nordschliefe.
The original uber 3 series is said by many to never have been bettered. Its combination of potent M power 4-cylinder engine, motorsport sourced dog-legged gearbox, and one of the sweetest handling and most perfectly balanced chassis to have been created has ensured the E30 M3 has become one of the cars of our time. A legend indeed.
Returning to the Nordschliefe's paddock at the tail end of 2003, and while winter sun is plentiful, the long, hot summer is long gone, not that this has deterred the hardcore track day set on this RMA-organised event. On cue we spot our prey; flanked by a pair of regular e30s sits an intriguing M3.
Sparkling white, our suspicions are immeadiately confirmed that this is not your regular E30. For a start the front spoiler is deeper and the foglights have been reclocated (by a complete cock) to make way for a pair of brake cooling ducts, and that twin-plane gold stripe looks familiar too; yes, of course, it's an Alpina fettled M3, possibly a rare B6 3.5S perhaps? You're right with the number of cylinders, but not with the brains behind this M3's brawn. 'It's a Hartge H36, but somewhere along the line someone fitted the Alpina body kit,' explains owner Wendy Lynam. 'The kit will be coming off in winter, and there are a few other areas that need tending to to take it back to being a Hartge H36.' Wendy has already reverted to the original Hartge suspension and 16-inch alloy wheels.
From where I'm standing, there's little wrong with this rare beast (just six H36s are thought to have been built). because under that forward-lifting bonnet lies the heart of a thoroughbred. Lifted from another seminal BMW M-car, the E34 M5, Hartge took the big four door saloon's 3.6-litre straight-six, and turned the wick up from 315bhp to a not-inconsiderable 330bhp (just 13bhp shy of today's E46 M3). Matched with 262lb ft of torque, and mated to the M3's regular close ratio (albeit with a higher fifth gear), dog legged gearbox, Hartge's ultimate E30 M3 is good for 172mph, and cracking the benchmark 0-60mph spring in 5.6 seconds.
'It's always interesting when the car's ticking over, because you get those who think they know what it is, and others who do. It's got such a distinctive engine note, but has a regular M3, so I guess that's where the confusion comes in', Wendy tells us. It's a strange sensation standing next to the H36, especially when it's flanked by two four-pot E30s. Their gruff mechanical engine note is in complete contrast to the Hartge's near-silent tone. Only the fruity stainless exhaust hints at anything out of the ordinary.
There's moreto the H36 that its sily engine note, though. 'It's a totally different driving experience to a normal M3,' Wendy explains. 'You can drive around just using the engine's torque, changing up when in a four-cylinder M3 things would only just get going'. 'Use all the power available and it just flies'. And on track? 'It's less frantic that other M3s here. It makes for a more relaxed time on track, which ultimately means there is more fun to be had.'
From our vantage point on the outside of Brunnchen (some 14 kilometeres into a lap of the 'Ring), the gaggle of e30s that have made the trip are keeping to the script. Blipping throttles on the downchange, darting to the apex with all 16 valves screaming in harmony on their exit. Wendy's E30 is no different. The H36's squat stance and go-kart like actions are pure road-racer, but that four cylinder rasp is missing, replaced by a silky-smooth, bass-filled straight-six soundtrack. It transforms the M3's persona from and angry bee trapped in a pint glass, to a lithe cheetah scything through the undergrowth. Where others explode from apex to apex, the H36 carreis the same hellfire pace, but with the grace of a thoroughbred. For many it is a car BMWshould have always built, and on this display, it is obvious why.
Initially, Wendy had plans to sell the H36 following the passing of her husband Rob (he had been the BMW fan with a Hartge H28 M5 also in the Lynam household), but thanks to the gentle persuasion of those closely incolved at the BMW Car Club's M-Power register and the likes of specialist Munich Bellends, the H36 is staying. As you read this it should have also completed a little winter makeover that will have seen the Alpina additions replaced with more traditional E30 M3 clothing, returing this H36 back to its true Q-car status. You have been warned.

[Theo]

I may have made a couple of alterations to the above quote...

Barry/Dan I might take it for a jaunt through Germany, but the cost of the Ring is now so prohibitive that I would rather take the track slag there give it a good caining doing as many laps as possible. You're both welcome to a serving btw.

[bss325i]

I may have made a couple of alterations to the above quote...

Barry/Dan I might take it for a jaunt through Germany, but the cost of the Ring is now so prohibitive that I would rather take the track slag there give it a good caining doing as many laps as possible. You're both welcome to a serving btw.

Alas i may not have the S50 by the time this wonder chariot is ready.

[bss325i]

Hmm, i think the author had his wires crossed when writing the second page as he states they also own a Hartge H28 M5... There is no such thing, otherwise they would have took out the M5 engine and put in a 528i

Hartge/Birds did conversions to E24 M635CSi's with mods to the M88 engine so it is possible that an E28 M5 received the same treatment.
Either that or the author means the Hartge H5S which is a worked 535i

[pacerpete]

Wendy and her husband also had a Hartge fettled E28 M5 which i believe stopped suddenly at the ring several years ago It has since been repaired and i believe Wendy sold it a couple of years ago.
Her current daily driver is a brilliant red 215 E30 M3 , what a girl !

[H35-24]

I must have been off the grid on the 27th as I didn't see this thread.

Sad to see this car in that condition I remember sitting in my students room north of Leicester back in october 2004 mentally banging my head into the table as I found this very car for sale on www.635csi.co.uk and I had just chosen to stay in school another year to get a MSC instead of a job.
It would have been mine and still running if I didn't have a MSC now. But that's life, shame to see it like that, but I put my faith in Theo that it will blast along B roads again. Very good no one over here on the continent got their hands on this one, people overhere have a tendency to sell such cars in pieces both wrecked and runners, as long as they can make money and build the engine into some god ugly E30 with too wide wheels and rieger skirts instead of respecting that someone back in the early 1990's made the ultimate driving machine and that its a matter of opion if anyone has made at better one yet.

Happy holidays from Denmark.

[H35-24]

Hi Theo

When you get the engine out you must do some detail shots of the firewall and all the rest of the mods done. I could really do with some details for my replica H35-24. I do have one picture of a touring that had the H35-24 converison, but it seems a bit bodged. Although it is done with original Hartge parts.

See picture here: http://wp1016621.wp027.webpack.hosteuro ... 338/05.jpg

[Theo]

Hi Soren, that's no problem I'll get some good photos of the modified area. I might take the engine out this sunday as I'm keen to remove the sump and get it repaired.

Took part of the shell out for a quick spin today....

[bss325i]

I do have one picture of a touring that had the H35-24 converison, but it seems a bit bodged. Although it is done with original Hartge parts.

See picture here: http://wp1016621.wp027.webpack.hosteuro ... 338/05.jpg

That is bloody rough!

[B7]

I do have one picture of a touring that had the H35-24 converison, but it seems a bit bodged. Although it is done with original Hartge parts.

See picture here: http://wp1016621.wp027.webpack.hosteuro ... 338/05.jpg

That is bloody rough!

Surely thats not Birds work?

[toby]

It's a bit Captain Caveman init?

[bmw-mad]

Its not that bad

[ricey46]

Hi Soren, that's no problem I'll get some good photos of the modified area. I might take the engine out this sunday as I'm keen to remove the sump and get it repaired.

Took part of the shell out for a quick spin today....

What was she like in the corners?? a bit shakey!