Requirements for Turbo...

[Guest]

Hi guys.

Well in a couple of months, with any luck, our project E30 will be cosmetically the way we want. We're almost at the stage where the car will go into the bodyshop. The Lumma front, sides and rear will all be put on, painted etc. I'm hopefully going to do some flushing/blending too and a few other trick bits and bobs, pics to follow once it's 'worthy'.

Anyway, we had always planned to do something a little special as the aim is to get our third PBMW feature.

So...we are hoping to go down the FI/turbo route but I need to have a list of things to procure and somewhere/someone capable of putting it altogether and for me to learn how to do it.

tbmw from the zone has given me a good start help wise, and having considered a lot of options I think the 2.7 engine conversion seems to be a good start. At the moment I have a stock 90 320i 2 door.

So...

ETA block which will probably need to be re-built.
Retain the cyliner head
Hoping to do a custom side exit exhaust thru the sideskirts.

What other engine parts will be required?
324td manifold and turbo?
Piggy back ECU?
Dump valve?

Basically is there a cheaper way of doing things? Being Scottish I'm always on the look out for a bargain!!! What kind of money should I put aside to be able to turbo my motor!!!

I'm more than happy to consider different engines...but have never done an engine swap or bolted on a turbo before, I've only ever done the normal tuning (bored cyliner head, bigger pistons, etc), and that was silly money for the amount of power.

Apart from Zoom motorsport, is there anywhere that can be trusted not to rip me off - I mean I'd be happy for a zoner that has been thru the process to help & make some money out of it...

All advice more than welcome!!!

[Turbo-Brown]

Hello!

Not sure you could use the TD turbo, but the manifold looks to be a nice, cheap and easy option.

You'd need to take a look at the flow rates you're looking at with the 2.7 motor in order to size the turbo, although finding a car with a similar capacity and power output is a reasonable start.

You'll definately (to do a proper job) need an intercooler.

Might be possible to use a piggyback ECU, but to be truely effective, it needs a MAP sensor so that it can read positive and negative manifold pressure signals.

The dump valve's up to you really

Any idea what sort of compression ratio the ETA runs?

[Guest]

maybe use the turbo from a M51 2.5 td then?

That's the same sort of capacity.

I've no idea about compression - which is kind of the technical thing i've no idea about.

Intercooler...probably get one of a shunted car - is there any out there that run decent sized coolers as standard? I'm pretty sure I read something out on the net that the Volvo 850's had big coolers?

I've read the other posts in the FI section about MAP sensors...what kind of price do these run at? How much should I factor in for engine management money wise?

[Turbo-Brown]

Not too sure about using turbochargers from diesel engines TBH. They tend to rev much lower and produce much less power than petrol engines so I'm not really sure their capacity can be used as much of a guide.

Think on the compression ratio front, if you ask in the tech forum someone'll know

The only problem with intercoolers is getting them to fit, so a trip to the scrappy with a tape measure might be in order. That or see how we all get on with our various chosen routes and just copy

Should be able to pick up a 2nd hand MAP sensor from ebay for not too much money. Think my mate paid about Ԛ£12 for his. Cossie owners seem to like upgrading to 3 bar ones leaving a cheap supply of 2 bar sensors which is all you need if you don't plan to go over 1 bar of boost. You can always upgrade later for about Ԛ£75 I think.

Engine management prices vary depending on manufacturer. My Emerald ECU and all the relevant sensors came to Ԛ£750 delivered. It's about Ԛ£235 on top of that for mapping so a grand should see you right on that front

[Guest]

so a realistic budget of Ԛ£2K for all parts should see me boosting a 2.7?

now that sounds brilliant - and achievable!!!

[H35-IAN]

hello Al is this you m8 ??

how is that e30 going then m8 i havnt had the chance to see it yet ?? you will have to pop round and show me im midway thru treating the h35 to a fare few new bits it needed!!

talk to u soon m8 ian.

[e30_Turbo]

A list of parts IÔš've put together that may give you a idea what you needԚ….

1 x 6 branch manifiold with correct size flange
1 x turbo with internal or external wastegate (T3 should be fine)
1 x intercooler
1 x downpipe with lambda sensor fitting
1 x set of charge pipes
1 x Adjustable fuel regulator
1 x Stand alone ECU and sensors, water temp, coolant temp, TPS and MAP sensor
1 x set of oil lines, feed and return
1 x set of colder spark plugs
1 x set of new head bolts (to be bought soon)
1 x Dump valve, well why not eh??
1 x set of bigger injectors, mine are roughly 60% bigger than standard

I would say to buy all of the above seperatly youÔš're into Ԛ£2k + fitting and mapping, but a few 2nd hand parts will help keep it cost friendly.

Good luck with the project,

Mark.

p.s. I understand that a TD turbo will spool quick but lack any power higher in the revs, best get a petrol one, skyline turbo would be ok, a single one, unless you fancy two like Mr Greedy himself!!

[H35-IAN]

how much power u aiming for then fozzy and how long is it till yours is done ? how reliable do u belive it to be ive been looking at turbo e30s for a long long time and must own up still to being very tempted if its worth it!! im looking at getting a r32gtr skyline for my next fun car in march though thatll be ive had loads of e30s i have the h26 n h35 still but want some turbo action aswell lol tell me more u got any pictures ?


also if i did a e30 turbo i would buy a left hand drive shell which i belive would help out!! plus im left handed so kinda helps me...

[Sjoerd320i]

I would say to buy all of the above seperatly youÔš're into Ԛ£2k + fitting and mapping, but a few 2nd hand parts will help keep it cost friendly.

hmmm that cheaper than I thought it would be

guess I will have money left for a second turbo

[e30_Turbo]

how much power u aiming for then fozzy and how long is it till yours is done ? how reliable do u belive it to be ive been looking at turbo e30s for a long long time and must own up still to being very tempted if its worth it!! im looking at getting a r32gtr skyline for my next fun car in march though thatll be ive had loads of e30s i have the h26 n h35 still but want some turbo action aswell lol tell me more u got any pictures ?

Ian,

Power wise, well we're hopeing for 250 @ 5-6psi which is acheivable with a smaller turbo and less bits than I have. Thats should be reliable and shouldn't cause any internal probs at all, stock setup will be fine.
Then the fun starts, I'm hoping to get up to 12-13psi after a few weeks of testing, checking, mapping etc and all going well that should equate to some 300+, but clutch will prob not like that so will have to be sensible and take it easy...or buy a decent clutch before the other dies.
Time wise, well I only really need a few hours of free time to fit, weld and wire the thing up, once the ECU side is ok, then it's going on, thing is tho this is my daily driver so it HAS to work, so taking my time to make sure all that can be done ahead of time is done and checked. Realistacilly, based on what was said last night, I'd say 3 weeks max now. Nothing else to buy bar an air filter, which I'll get on the day, not sure how big I need one yet.

Pic wise, check the "bits for turboing your motor" post, pics of turbo, manifold, intercoolers on there, the rest are in my box of goodies in my shed, all waiting to get some use. Intercooler's been mounted for a few weeks now, same as ECU, just the hardware to fit now.

My main aim is to give Bimmerjim a run for his money, although I'll need some slicks to keep up, he's posted 11.88 for the 1/4 @ 113 and 0-60 in 3.6 secs, sounds alot but we have a few advantages being in this country and I also have a mad plan that uses a fire extinguisher, but thats for the pod only

Hoes does this sound: Hartge H35 TURBO

Do it, you know ya wanna

[e30_Turbo]

also if i did a e30 turbo i would buy a left hand drive shell which i belive would help out!! plus im left handed so kinda helps me...

That would make the exhaust headache disapear, handy if you can live with it

[Turbo-Brown]

Fozzy, what compression are you running just out of interest?

[e30_Turbo]

Fozzy, what compression are you running just out of interest?

Stock all the way mate, my phase 2 lump is 8.5:1, which should be just enough to give some preformance off boost and handle all I will throw at it.

Have you altered yours in anyway? or did you use the pistons that were in the engine originally?

Mark.

[Jon_Bmw]

A list of parts IÔš've put together that may give you a idea what you needԚ….

1 x 6 branch manifiold with correct size flange
1 x turbo with internal or external wastegate (T3 should be fine)
1 x intercooler
1 x downpipe with lambda sensor fitting
1 x set of charge pipes
1 x Adjustable fuel regulator
1 x Stand alone ECU and sensors, water temp, coolant temp, TPS and MAP sensor
1 x set of oil lines, feed and return
1 x set of colder spark plugs
1 x set of new head bolts (to be bought soon)
1 x Dump valve, well why not eh??
1 x set of bigger injectors, mine are roughly 60% bigger than standard

In addition to fozzys comprehensive list here is what takes the time to build in my opinion.

5-10 hours Solid if you use the TD manifold, this is enlarging the top holes massively and in a given direction. The bottom notches have to be drilled, and these are notches mot holes. You won't believe how many drill bits you'll burn out. Pillar drill would be handy. Then hours of filling, doesn't really matter how good you are at drilling acuratly!

2 Hours rearranging turbo if neccessary to get the oil feed at 12 o clock and the return and 6 o clock, might be worth re-conning it at the same time add 3 hours??

5 hours if you've got an internal wastgate and you had to move the turbo sections around, as you'll have to create a custom mounting bracket for the wastegate actuator.

3-7?? hours to fit the intercooler i would imagine i'm sure Mark will give you a better idea, including making brackets, chopping metal out of the way, then tidying up.

6+ hours on the downpipe, Dependant on whether you have a front or rear facing exhaust section on your turbo. You need to navigate it around the oil housing, engine mount and steering UJ. Then drilling in a O2 sensor if required. Also possibly having to split 2 into 1 if the original centre box and rear box are still wanted.

2+ hours to find the correct charge pipes with bends you want in the right places, fairly simple to cennect up.

0.75 hours to connect up fuel regulator, the right way round!

2.5+ to do oil feed, as you'll have to get a 12x1.5 fitting which are near impossible, so you'll have to die one, then a t-piece which may have to be tapped to take the original oil pressure switch of a gauge, then either hose clip to the feed on the turbo, with a regulator of some sort as not to blow the seals on the turbo

10-15 hours to do oil return. This includes, jacking car up nice and high, taking part of the bell housing off, taking 24 sump bolts off, taking oil sender unit off, removing engine mounts, jacking engine up to get the sump to come off. Then cleaning the sump of all reminates, drilling into the sump, connecting fitting. Then putting it all back together again, with sealant gastket, and some fresh oil.

0.2 hours for the spark plugs providing you haven't set it all up and forgotten as then it will take more like 1-2 hours!

10+ hours for the head bolts i would have thought, haven't done it so i couldn't comment exactly.

1.5 hours for a dump valve i would have thought again, welding a T piece onto charge pipe, connecting a vaccum source to it.

2 Hours roughly for the injectors, you don't have to remove the inlet manifold-do not believe haynes ever! Get them cleaned professionally if you can

Now lastly to megasquirt, Mark and ant are the best people to speak to, i would have thought about 20+ hours to get all the sensor in wire it all up, and get a decent map running ok on it. Please edit it ifs drastically over or under estimated.

You could use emerald like Alex but i don't have a clue how long that would take either.

10+ Hours for things that go wrong or bits you haven't thought about, and a few stella hours inbetween as well!

3 Hours preperation to turning the key, fluid checks, gasket checks, and plucking up the bottle.

Its all worth it in the end though!

Cheers Jon


The above are estimates only and the chances are that i won't be coming to help you when you haven't done it in the time i have stated, unless i'm really bored!

[H35-IAN]

is anyone actually got a how to guide on how to do one of these ruff as Fuk conversions !! im very very interested at the moment i do want some turbo fun and have always loved the turbo e30s i e bimmer jims car etc hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[e30_Turbo]

3-7?? hours to fit the intercooler i would imagine i'm sure Mark will give you a better idea, including making brackets, chopping metal out of the way, then tidying up.
[/size]

My intercooler was custom made to fit, so was too easy really, if I said it took me an hour I'd be lying, more like 20 mins, but just ask Ant or Alex about there's and you'll see why mine is a bad example.

Here it is fitted:

[e30_Turbo]

is anyone actually got a how to guide on how to do one of these ruff as Fuk conversions !! im very very interested at the moment i do want some turbo fun and have always loved the turbo e30s i e bimmer jims car etc hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Cehck out e30tech.com there is a good thread in the F/I section, should be all you need including links etc.

HTH, Mark

[H35-IAN]

cheers buddy"" may i ask is urs running now ??

[e30_Turbo]

cheers buddy"" may i ask is urs running now ??

It HAS run, Ant ran it for about an hour, then went up the road and it died. Opened up the bonnet and found it had melted the loom amoung other things, so not run since....but it does run and he said it felt evil fast

I PROMISE to get vids up asap, must share the fun with all of the e30 nation for sure!

[H35-IAN]

shit man sorry to here about the loom melting man!! hope all is ok now though and fair play m8 would u say its been seriously hard work ??
or fairly easy will it make it alot easier then using the lhd car ?

[e30_Turbo]

sh*t man sorry to here about the loom melting man!! hope all is ok now though and fair play m8 would u say its been seriously hard work ??
or fairly easy will it make it alot easier then using the lhd car ?

All the tech side has been interesting to say the least, learning how pressure effects an engine and the fuelling and ignition are all like homework really.
The hard parts, like making the mainfold and exhaust were mostly done when I got my bits at the beginning, not like Alex who has home made everything, including 6 TB's and manifolds, he's a superstar.
Jon and Lentec have also done a lot of work themselves, I feel a little lame in comparison.
LHD will def help with the space issue on the exhaust side, not sure what other advantage it will have tho, but you can by LHD turbo manifolds, so makes life easier really, which is always handy

[lentec]

Jon and Lentec have also done a lot of work themselves, I feel a little lame in comparison.

Ive done all! the work myself!! cheeky!

thats a shitter about your loom when do you recon to have it sorted?

[e30_Turbo]

Ive done all! the work myself!! cheeky!

Ok, I apologise , Lentec's done ALL the work himself

thats a sh*t about your loom when do you recon to have it sorted?

The thing is it was in Ants car when he tested it, so his loom got melted, he fixed it quick enough and no probs since, just a few heat sheilds now exist to prevent meltdown next time

[Jon_Bmw]

Mark i'm worried about the turbo temps and what they might melt, but not to sure what to cover/protect. Where does the main engine harness run, along the bulkhead??

There is tape you can get but its about 50 quid(still haven't found how to stop my keyboard from being american, so i can't write pound symbol!) so i can't justify that if i can wack in sone ali sheet that is used for protecting cat-convertor heats.

Well done lentec, forgot to post in the other thread, saw the video-ACE!

Jon

[Turbo-Brown]

Fozzy, what compression are you running just out of interest?

Stock all the way mate, my phase 2 lump is 8.5:1, which should be just enough to give some preformance off boost and handle all I will throw at it.

Have you altered yours in anyway? or did you use the pistons that were in the engine originally?

Mark.

Mine's pretty much stock inside, with the exception of having all the sharp edges removed in the combustion chambers.

The valve cutouts looked particularly sharp to me so I smoothed them off a bit, paid a bit of attention to the spark plug holes and then just the edges of the chamber.

Probably overkill, but I'm strangely keen to avoid hotspots causing detonation

[Guest]

hello Al is this you m8 ??

how is that e30 going then m8 i havnt had the chance to see it yet ?? you will have to pop round and show me im midway thru treating the h35 to a fare few new bits it needed!!

talk to u soon m8 ian.

hi Ian yeh it's me Al,

The E30 is going ok, we've de-chromed the windows now, fitted a VW 16V aerial, DTM mirrors, got a pair of corbeaus just waiting for subframes.

Lumma front bumper, probably going for Reiger rear & skirts, they are on the way soon, ditched the M3 bumper and skirts and DTM wing because I didn't want to try to make the car something it wasn't.

Fitted Sony HU and 10 disc changer with remote on the steering column.

It needs new wings at the front the rust monster has got to them, but Becky has found a good pair nice and cheap, so re-spray and smooth/flush very soon,

got some lovely multi spokes that are going to Washford's for powder coating to match the Alpine white, and then some springs to deck it. I've got to get some E46 Cabby rear mounts at the same time.

Becks tinted the rear lenses all red, looks the dogs!

Tbh it's looking a little rough all over at the moment but...the potential is there, sweet engine/gearbox, loads and loads of BMW history!

Yeh feel free to come down and have a butchers whenever dude. I'm reluctant to take it out as it's not done at all, you know what I'm like, total perfectionist lol lol

[e30_Turbo]

Mark i'm worried about the turbo temps and what they might melt, but not to sure what to cover/protect. Where does the main engine harness run, along the bulkhead??

There is tape you can get but its about 50 quid(still haven't found how to stop my keyboard from being american, so i can't write pound symbol!) so i can't justify that if i can wack in sone ali sheet that is used for protecting cat-convertor heats.

Well done lentec, forgot to post in the other thread, saw the video-ACE!

Jon

Jon,

Main loom runs along bulkhead from fuse box to battery tray, also the HT leads and the coil lead need protecting too.

I'm having to lose water bottles and relocating the clutch resovior and the coil too.

I'm planning on wrapping the manifold and downpipe in exhaust wrap to help and adding a heat shield to the exhaust side and downpipe connection.

Having a vent cut in aswell, just in case!!

Lentec has a good idea with his bonnet raisers, subtle yet effective way of extra cooling, same as I had on my Bug years ago

Have you driven it yet then?

[Guest]

I'm pretty sure there is heat resistant tape in the professional DT catalogue (Demon Tweeks), you could also use exhaust lagging?

[Jon_Bmw]

Mark i'm worried about the turbo temps and what they might melt, but not to sure what to cover/protect. Where does the main engine harness run, along the bulkhead??

There is tape you can get but its about 50 quid(still haven't found how to stop my keyboard from being american, so i can't write pound symbol!) so i can't justify that if i can wack in sone ali sheet that is used for protecting cat-convertor heats.

Well done lentec, forgot to post in the other thread, saw the video-ACE!

Jon

Jon,

Main loom runs along bulkhead from fuse box to battery tray, also the HT leads and the coil lead need protecting too.

I'm having to lose water bottles and relocating the clutch resovior and the coil too.

I'm planning on wrapping the manifold and downpipe in exhaust wrap to help and adding a heat shield to the exhaust side and downpipe connection.

Having a vent cut in aswell, just in case!!

Lentec has a good idea with his bonnet raisers, subtle yet effective way of extra cooling, same as I had on my Bug years ago

Have you driven it yet then?

Have i driven it or lentec? If me, no i haven't too noisy and no MOT.

Thats where i thought the main engine harness ran, thanks for confirming that, luckerly i don't have any heat too close to that!

Looking on the DT website, thanks Al, this is what i've come up with

Reflective tape to 1500'C -
http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/catalogue ... rom=search

Then some exhaust wrap in different sizes, pricing from Ԛ£10 to Ԛ£250!
http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/catalogue ... rom=search

[lentec]

somthing ive been looking at is the plugleads ive got some aluminium tube perfect size to fit over the boots! and ive got plenty spare
will post some pics when i get round to it

[e30_Turbo]

somthing ive been looking at is the plugleads ive got some aluminium tube perfect size to fit over the boots! and ive got plenty spare
will post some pics when i get round to it

I like the sound of them, however I was thinking of a ali sheild to cover all the HT leads in one, maybe bolt it onto the end of the manifold studs that are left proud.....lets see yours first

I've just ordered 10metres of exhaust wrap from Proven products in Plymouth, seems to be what I need, I hope I have ordered enough tho

They wanted Ԛ£10 for the metal ties tho......

[Guest]

Looking on the DT website, thanks Al, this is what i've come up with

Reflective tape to 1500'C -
http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/catalogue ... rom=search

no problem ;) the only thing is DT seems really expensive but I just don't know anywhere else that supplies that sort of thing.

[Motorhole]

Not sure the 324TD manifold is the way to go, as I don't think the bolts line up with the holes on the M20 block. A custom manifold could be made (Possibly steep), or you could import one from the states as there are a few companies out there that do them. Alternatively, get a standard M20 manifold modified.

Don't use a diesl turbo on a petrol engine. They are not designed to take the higher RPM and higher exhaust gas temperatures of a petrol engine.

I'm planning a turbo conversion myself. My (Appears to be the cheapest!)plan was to hijack the whole turbo/intercooler system and plumbing from something like a Volvo V70 (The manifold would have to be made to suit the system so I will be getting the system first!). Hook it all up to a megasquirt ECU, possibly with a piggyback boost controller too.

Incidentally, does anyone know if the 324TD pistons and con rods are forged, and the bore and stroke of the engine?

[e30_Turbo]

Not sure the 324TD manifold is the way to go, as I don't think the bolts line up with the holes on the M20 block. A custom manifold could be made (Possibly steep), or you could import one from the states as there are a few companies out there that do them. Alternatively, get a standard M20 manifold modified.

Don't use a diesl turbo on a petrol engine. They are not designed to take the higher RPM and higher exhaust gas temperatures of a petrol engine.

I'm planning a turbo conversion myself. My (Appears to be the cheapest!)plan was to hijack the whole turbo/intercooler system and plumbing from something like a Volvo V70 (The manifold would have to be made to suit the system so I will be getting the system first!). Hook it all up to a megasquirt ECU, possibly with a piggyback boost controller too.

Incidentally, does anyone know if the 324TD pistons and con rods are forged, and the bore and stroke of the engine?

There are quite a few people already using the TD manifold, it does require some work, some holes drilled and some material removing, but it's still a cheap way to getting a turbo manifold.

Check Jdturbocharging.com for a HOW TO make the TD manifold fit.

The stroke of the 324td manifold is the same as the eta one, about 84mm I think, but they are very rare here. Alpina used a forged crank, poss more of them about.

Have a read through all of our posts here, may give you an idea of what each of us is planning and in some cases, what has been acheived!

Thanks, Mark.