The story so far.

Post Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:53 pm

Ok guys, round to of my quest. Thanks to your advice I've decided to settle on ATE powerdiscs from ECP.

Now, I need suggestions for pads AND suspension.

I've actually managed to get a car (325 touring) so now the modding needs to be started. I'm on a tight budget, and the car needs to be biased more towards fast road than track, but as always your advice is appreciated.

EDIT:-

Thus far, my shopping list is as follows.

1) BMW standard front+rear discs.
2) e30 M3 front suspension arm bushes from the dealers.
3) staying with the standard calipers, although they may be overhauled if necessary.
4) Pagid RS29's.
5) some type of performance brake fluid.
6) I think that changing ARB's will be overkill.
7) 6 line aeroquip brake line kit

Post Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:57 pm

oh well, i hope you dont cook them first hard use like i did.

Post Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:59 pm

fuzzy wrote:oh well, i hope you dont cook them first hard use like i did.

The engine will be pretty much standard, with few mods under the bonnet.
The beast in your sig has almost double the BHP lol.

Post Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:06 pm

it was stage 1 (282bhp) when i used the ate powerdiscs. no where near the performance of EBC's imo.

Post Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:11 pm

fuzzy wrote:it was stage 1 (282bhp) when i used the ate powerdiscs. no where near the performance of EBC's imo.

In your opinion, how good is the standard suspension setup for fast road use? Does it need to be uprated?
Would a simple drop using lowered springs be sufficient or do I need springs and dampers?
I can't go too low as the car will have to carry three guys and luggage.

Post Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:15 pm

ive never used standard suspension in anger so i cant really give an honest answer but good /new standard shocks on shorter stiffer springs wont compromise either way to much. its not recommended by most to go more that about 35mm lower on standard shocks either.

Post Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:28 pm

fuzzy wrote:ive never used standard suspension in anger so i cant really give an honest answer but good /new standard shocks on shorter stiffer springs wont compromise either way to much. its not recommended by most to go more that about 35mm lower on standard shocks either.

What I'm trying (and failing, lol) to say, is that I'd like the car to be comfortable enough to drive across europe, but not be like a blancmange when I'm throwing it around the 'ring.
I haven't driven the car yet so I can't comment on the suitability of the standard setup.

Post Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:32 pm

uprated shocks and springs wont compromise everyday use unless you fit spax adjustables

Post Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:29 pm

What Fuzzy say's + strip the fu**er out. Better Arb's will make a very big difference on handling too.

Post Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:40 pm

zaust wrote:What Fuzzy say's + strip the fu**er out.

that wont be to comfortable for his 3 passengers though.

Post Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:47 pm

zaust wrote:What Fuzzy say's + strip the fu**er out. Better Arb's will make a very big difference on handling too.

Not an option mate as it has to carry myself and 2 passengers from NE England to Prague and back again (circa 3200 miles). I'm thinking minor chassis mods rather than extreme. Maybe changing some of the rubber bushes for example. different springs etc.
Basically just the next level up from the standard car will be fine, but as you guys know these cars inside and out I figure you will have an idea what parts suit my needs better than I do.

Post Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:08 am

M8,
Just my tuppence worth,but defo change yer brake fluid,i use super blue and Ferodo DS2500 pads in the m3 tourer

as for discs,i had Zimmerman in ma old 325,pretty good for the price,got them from GSF

cheers

Tam

Post Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:17 am

For uprateing the rubber bushes, M3 spec front wishbone bushes from the dealer are an easy swap and make a noteable improvement to the steering feel, the right side of £25 the pair too

Post Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:31 am

stonesie wrote:For uprateing the rubber bushes, M3 spec front wishbone bushes from the dealer are an easy swap and make a noteable improvement to the steering feel, the right side of £25 the pair too

This is the sort of stuff I'm after matey.
All the mods need to be relatively cheap, so I'm not going as far as strut braces etc.
Changing the springs and/or shockers will be the biggest job and even then only if it's not too pricey and the result doesn't make the car too hardcore.

Post Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:17 am

fuzzy wrote:it was stage 1 (282bhp) when i used the ate powerdiscs. no where near the performance of EBC's imo.

I think you're missing the point mate - most of us don't have nigh on 300BHP, so I'm sure the ATE PowerDiscs will be fine for Noob's touring..

In 3 years of track work, they have never let me down.. I have used EBCs on a friends car and they did seem very good in comparison though..

Post Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:54 pm

Standard suspension is very good for fast road use, especially if it's the M-Tech version of 'standard'. Sure there's body roll in the corners and dive under braking, but the plot stays pretty much together even when you push quite hard.
I took my totally standard 325i over to Nurburg late last year to pick up some bits from my not-so-standard (cheap drop kit, uprated arbs) 320i, which had died there

I was there, the 'Ring was open, I had a Jahreskarte, it would have been rude not to!
I did 15 laps before my brake pads were down to the backing and had a huge laugh - the car wasn't as precise and focussed as it was early this year, with coilovers, stiffer arbs and better brakes, but it was very usable and never felt loose or 'wallowy'.
Moral of the story? The E30 was developed there, it shouldn't be a big surprise that it works well on the Nordschleife!

With regard to brakes, the best thing you can do is to ensure sufficient cooling. Marc of TTE Technics just down the road from Nurburg builds E30 race cars for VLN etc. Brake rotor and caliper upgrades are forbidden in most VLN classes, though pads are free, but with a proper cooling air hose (100mm diameter flex hose running from the intake and attached to the strut, pointing at the inside of the disc), all is well; the brakes don't fade or wear out quickly.

Post Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:19 pm

handpaper wrote:Standard suspension is very good for fast road use, especially if it's the M-Tech version of 'standard'. Sure there's body roll in the corners and dive under braking, but the plot stays pretty much together even when you push quite hard.
I took my totally standard 325i over to Nurburg late last year to pick up some bits from my not-so-standard (cheap drop kit, uprated arbs) 320i, which had died there
I was there, the 'Ring was open, I had a Jahreskarte, it would have been rude not to!
I did 15 laps before my brake pads were down to the backing and had a huge laugh - the car wasn't as precise and focussed as it was early this year, with coilovers, stiffer arbs and better brakes, but it was very usable and never felt loose or 'wallowy'.
Moral of the story? The E30 was developed there, it shouldn't be a big surprise that it works well on the Nordschleife!

With regard to brakes, the best thing you can do is to ensure sufficient cooling. Marc of TTE Technics just down the road from Nurburg builds E30 race cars for VLN etc. Brake rotor and caliper upgrades are forbidden in most VLN classes, though pads are free, but with a proper cooling air hose (100mm diameter flex hose running from the intake and attached to the strut, pointing at the inside of the disc), all is well; the brakes don't fade or wear out quickly.

Great post+very informative, thank you.
FWIW I'd have ducted the front brakes anyway, but I'm wondering if it's worthwhile touching the suspension on the car. FYI it's a J plate 325 touring.

Post Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:20 am

Just read your edit...

OE BMW discs are the best I've used. The rationale for grooves is that they "stop the pads from glazing"/"release the gas that comes out of a hot pad". Use pads rated for heavy use (Pagid RS29, Hawk Carbon, EBC Yellow (NOT Green!)) and neither of these will happen anyway.

M3 CABs are a worthwhile upgrade, cheap too.

Standard calipers are fine; rebuild them if they leak but I've never seen that happen. Check for play in the sliding bolts which would let the caliper spread; these can be renewed.

Pagid RS29s. Reassuringly expensive

The best brake fluid is new brake fluid. Buy decent, branded DOT 5.1 @ £5-10 a litre and change it often.

A Touring already has BMW's thickest rear ARB (14.5mm) and second-thickest front (20mm). THIS WORKS to stiffen the front further.

Post Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:20 am

As said above... Pads 1st, dont skimp on cheap ones, then look at cooling, but in my experiance with decent pads the standard ducting works well. Discs wont be a big issue if you can keep them cool unless you are a real nut, have uber power and/or racing.

Racing DOT 4 is actually a little better than 5.1 but is far more hydroscopic so it needs to be changed more frequently, especially if its going though a lot of heat cycles.

Post Sun Dec 14, 2008 4:20 pm

handpaper wrote:Just read your edit...

OE BMW discs are the best I've used. The rationale for grooves is that they "stop the pads from glazing"/"release the gas that comes out of a hot pad". Use pads rated for heavy use (Pagid RS29, Hawk Carbon, EBC Yellow (NOT Green!)) and neither of these will happen anyway.

M3 CABs are a worthwhile upgrade, cheap too.

Standard calipers are fine; rebuild them if they leak but I've never seen that happen. Check for play in the sliding bolts which would let the caliper spread; these can be renewed.

Pagid RS29s. Reassuringly expensive

The best brake fluid is new brake fluid. Buy decent, branded DOT 5.1 @ £5-10 a litre and change it often.

A Touring already has BMW's thickest rear ARB (14.5mm) and second-thickest front (20mm). THIS WORKS to stiffen the front further.

How do pads like the Pagid RS29's or the yellow EBC's fair under normal road use? Would they be fine, or should i fit standard pads for the road and carry a set of RS29's to swap when we get to the 'ring?

Post Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:02 pm

I can't speak for EBC Yellowstuff, but Pagid RS29s are very good on the road. The initial friction level is about 1/3 better than standard road pads and increases with heat, so you don't have to worry about whether they'll bite from cold. Used normally (yeah, right!) they'll last forever and because they're not abrasive, so will your discs.
The only downside is that they can be a bit squealy, but that can probably be cured by a little copper grease on the back of the pads (I didn't bother).

If you're going to use different pads for road and track, you'll need two sets of discs, too. You'll also need to mark the discs and pads so you can put them back exactly as they came off, otherwise you'll have to bed them in again over and over.

Post Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:31 pm

handpaper wrote:I can't speak for EBC Yellowstuff, but Pagid RS29s are very good on the road. The initial friction level is about 1/3 better than standard road pads and increases with heat, so you don't have to worry about whether they'll bite from cold. Used normally (yeah, right!) they'll last forever and because they're not abrasive, so will your discs.
The only downside is that they can be a bit squealy, but that can probably be cured by a little copper grease on the back of the pads (I didn't bother).

If you're going to use different pads for road and track, you'll need two sets of discs, too. You'll also need to mark the discs and pads so you can put them back exactly as they came off, otherwise you'll have to bed them in again over and over.

Well, given your reply and the fact that I haven't read anyone saying a single bad thing about the RS29's then I think they should be the pad of choice.
Bloody expensive though, lol.