Fitting buckets

[rickyc]

Hi guys

I'm going to fit a pair of recaro spg's but for the moment don't want to use harnesses.......but the standard belts are attached to the standard seats.......I haven't got the side mounts yet, but do you just bolt them to this instead?

[rickyc]

Anyone?

Can you use standard belts with buckets (Specifically Recaro spg)? The buckle is attached to the seat, where would you have to remount it?

[UweM3]

I would not recommend this. Have a search, it was discussed many times

[steerfromtherear]

Id put harnesses in, belts arent designed to work with buckets really.


If you're insistant on it then you will need to find a car in your local scrap yard with a floor mounted seat belt reciever thingy that will lock nice to your belt.

[rickyc]

Thanks

Race harnesses it is then

[steerfromtherear]

I dont know peoples thoughts on it but I bought a set of cheap 3 point harnesses from a rally supplier near me for around £30 new. They are marked with some sort of safety mark meaning they are mot legal but not FIA approved.
Not the best but I reckon £30 is a small price to pay for something that is designed to work with bucket seats.

[UweM3]

I dont know peoples thoughts on it but I bought a set of cheap 3 point harnesses from a rally supplier near me for around £30 new. They are marked with some sort of safety mark meaning they are mot legal but not FIA approved.
Not the best but I reckon £30 is a small price to pay for something that is designed to work with bucket seats.

that's the worst thing you can have IMO. Submarining is the issue with all 3 and 4 point harness'
Only 5 or 6 is fully safe

[agent006]

Ther comes a point though where you have to accept only a certain increase in safety. What i mean is, 3 points may not be as safe as 4 which aren't as safe as 5, which aren't as safe as 6 with a full 12 point cage and a HANS device. However, they're all safer than a stanard 3 point interia reel belt.

[JimmyC]

3 point interia reel belt.

but only if fitted correctly to a harness bar IMO, if not stick with the inertia and get a CGLock for it

[SteMarsden]

FIA 6 point harnesses are available from Peter Lloyd Rallying for £95.... Very good value and helpful too.

[UweM3]

Ther comes a point though where you have to accept only a certain increase in safety. What i mean is, 3 points may not be as safe as 4 which aren't as safe as 5, which aren't as safe as 6 with a full 12 point cage and a HANS device. However, they're all safer than a stanard 3 point interia reel belt.

disagree, sorry. I watched a video from german AAA testing "rally belts"
(3 point and 4 point) and the dummy just went under the hip belt causing severe damage to the rib cage. A OEM 3 point belt isn't that bad after all.
You bodyweight pulling the shoulderpart of the belt will tension the hipsection and keeping you safe in place.
But whatever we discuss here, everybody think he knows whats best...
After seeing the video I have removed my "go faster" belts and stayed with the OEM belt.
On my buckets I use a 6 point.

[handpaper]

You bodyweight pulling the shoulderpart of the belt will tension the hipsection and keeping you safe in place.

And if you're using a CGLock it will ratchet tighter and tighter until after 20 minutes or so it feels like you're being cut in half

Proper harnesses for me next year......

[SteMarsden]

The MSA moved away from 3 point and 4 point belts many years ago for the reason Uwe mentioned.

When I was Sprinting in the road car class I'd always use an OEM belt with a CGLock OR a 5 point or 6 point harness. I would not consider anything else, esp a 3 point or 4 point, even in the Road Car classes.

[Jon_Bmw]

This thread is mildly interesting to me as its something that will eventually get done on our 205.

Having a look at a few harness pictures it seems that it could be possible to slip under a 4 point harness



I presume the two longer bits of belt go around your shoulders and down towards your stomach/crotch area and the shorter ones go sideways into a fixing point on the seat or floor. There doesn't seem to be a lot from stopping you sliding underneath all the belts does there Unless you really crank them up which would be unpleasant at best.

I have been in a rally car with a 5 point belt harness on when we came to a rather abrupt holt on a tyre wall and it held me very well. The bottom belt is based around the middle of the seat and buckles up to your crotch region like so:




I thought that was pretty good and didn't really realise what the point of a 6 belt harness was. Had a quick read of this and it made more sense I guess:

http://www.opentracking.com/5_pts_vs_6_pts.htm

I think the 6 point is perhaps only a must for racing at serious speed where the danger of contact is particularly high, such as racing I guess. It does make some interesting reading anyhow.

Thoughts?

[Brian28]

Thoughts?

Ouch .

Yup, the additional fixing for 5/6 point is the easy one, just drill down through the floor pan, so its not a lot of extra work for a lot more security should the worst happen. If you are going to fit belts well worth the extra ten minutes and few quid that it will cost.

[Jon_Bmw]

My testies were slightly sore for a few mins! No children for Jon_Bmw

I'm still not sure where the bottom 2 belts go on your body with a 6 point compared to a 5 point.

Do they go, crotch-->over thigh--->floor x 2 for both thighs.

compared to a 5 point which is crotch--->vertically down--->floor

[Brian28]

Same as a 5 point. Think its mainly for rallying, just an extra loading point for when you are dangling upside down in a hedge

[1an]

Jon, ive got 4 point harness in my car and i use it daily, i always have the lap belt as tight as it will go just incase so it is pulling me right down into the seat and always make sure before i go anywhere than my passengers belts are set correctly,

think im gonna invest in the extra strap just to be on the safe side to stop and submarining, even tohugh i have hit the brakes very hard and come to a hult quickly i havent even moved in the seat when the belt is done up tight.

[Jon_Bmw]

That makes it more clear, thanks Brian

I think you might only submarine in a high speed incident tbh which you shouldn't be getting yourself into on the road... Definatly worth upgrading for the piece of mind. Only thing I don't like about the whole harness/bucket seat thing is the time it takes to put it on if you just want to pop up the shop for a min or two. Thankfully we don't really do that in the 205. Mind, two minutes extra might save your life.

[cragles]

Plenty of pictures of the harness mounting on our project site mate...

http://www.s109494890.websitehome.co.uk ... photos.asp

cheers

[UweM3]

the benefit of a 6 point is the double crotch belt wich runs at the side of your legs leaving room for your family jewels. Not much of a gain in terms of load compared to a 5 point, just helps to keep your deep voice if you crash into something...

Also IMPORTANT, do NOT fit a 5 or 6 point to a seat without cut out in the seat for it. The belts need to come down to the floor colinear with your sholder belts. If the crotchbelt has to run over the front edge of the seat, it's worthless.

[oldroydsr4]

1an: Hitting the brakes hard will pull a few G, if you hit a wall and come to a halt very quickly you will pull close to 100g (dependent on speed). So i don't think thats proof that the 4 points are safe.

[march109]

Bloody hell Jon, If the seatbelt holds you in place as it should the chasis will only fold in on you or you'll be sat with the engine in your lap take your pick, I'd rather be thrown well clear of a 205 in the event of an accident rather than wake up being cut out of it.

[1an]

1an: Hitting the brakes hard will pull a few G, if you hit a wall and come to a halt very quickly you will pull close to 100g (dependent on speed). So i don't think thats proof that the 4 points are safe.

i didnt say that they were proof of them being safe, they serve a purpose 4 points, also comes down to seat design as well asto how easily you will submarine.

[UweM3]

1an: Hitting the brakes hard will pull a few G, if you hit a wall and come to a halt very quickly you will pull close to 100g (dependent on speed). So i don't think thats proof that the 4 points are safe.

i didnt say that they were proof of them being safe, they serve a purpose 4 points, also comes down to seat design as well asto how easily you will submarine.

you are doing the right thing buy tightening the lap belt FIRST and have it sit right over your hipbones. If you pull the shoulder belts to tight, they will only move the buckle upwards.

[zimmer-320i]

i mean how bloody fast are you likly to be going to have a benifet of 5 over 6 point! 6points are realy for rally and f1 were huge forces are involved like 140 mph plus on rally and 200mph plus on f1! but then f1 harnesses are kinda totaly outta every day ones any way! but you see my point

[Jon_Bmw]

Bloody hell Jon, If the seatbelt holds you in place as it should the chasis will only fold in on you or you'll be sat with the engine in your lap take your pick, I'd rather be thrown well clear of a 205 in the event of an accident rather than wake up being cut out of it.

True, but the same would happen in a Non caged e30. A 30mph shunt in either of the two cars could see you dead. A roll cage/ seat and harness are next on the list. I don't really use it on the road other than a bit of testing so I am not overly concerned atm.

[zimmer-320i]

yer but you can drown in a couple inches of water, your not going to go out with a snorkel on every time it rains!!

what im saying is a 3 or 4 point is fine for road use, if your in a bucket seat your ass is lower than your knees so it would be like having a 3 point oem belt on any way and you would submarine unless you were going seriously fast but then if you know ure going to be hacking it tighten the belt!! in my opionin id have a 5 point tbh as that gives you a money over saftey balance and will be suficent for what you need

[zimmer-320i]

and any way if you dont plan on going to a track why not use the runners and fix the buckets to the standard runners and use the seatbelt fix point on that??

[UweM3]

and any way if you dont plan on going to a track why not use the runners and fix the buckets to the standard runners and use the seatbelt fix point on that??

no offense dude, but you clearly don't know what you are talking about. Watch a crash test video and have a look how the dummy is sliding under the buckle of a 3 point gofaster belt. You will survife, yes. But with broken legs, hip and a smashed sternum.

following your logic bikers don't need a crash helmet either, do they? Just that millisecond before they smash their head on the tarmac a crash helmet would be helpful.

If you feel safe with a 3 point, keep going. But don't suggest toother that this is ok.

just my 2p

[Jon_Bmw]

Was that a 3 point slidefaster belt?

[Benho]

im not entirely sure what a slidefaster belt is so could someone explain?

also, i was always under the impression that something like a 5 point harness would only really be necessary for regular track visits and actual competition cars? i always saw the 4 point as a reasonably safe option for everyday use and the occasional thrash around a track.

after looking at the CGLock i cant see how this would be safer than a 3 or 4 point harness. i thought you would still be prone to breaking rips because at high speed, the waist belt is all that is stopping you from flying through the windscreen as the shoulder strap is still allowed to be slack.

[Jon_Bmw]

The slide faster was a piss take. Joking that you would slide underneath it quite easily.

[Benho]

The slide faster was a pee pee take. Joking that you would slide underneath it quite easily.

haha at least i get it now. but surely a 4 point hardness cant be THAT terrible... as long as your waist strap is tight enough...

[alan1272]

uwe has a commendable attitude towards safety and here's a video similar to the subject he was talking about:

however i run 2" 4 point belts in my rally car, this is the minimum the MSA require for harnesses where i compete. submarining is obviously a real risk in high speed frontal impacts as shown on the video so a 5 point for track work would seem a good idea.
in my opinion any correctly fitted, approved harness will stop you flying round the cabin better than an inertia reel belt in the event of a roll or something other than a big frontal stop, so i don't believe 3 and 4 point harnesses are the death trap some tend to suggest they are.