Direct to Head TB Piccies

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Turbo-Brown
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Post Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:31 am

Posted this in the forced induction section but here we are:

Taken some pictures at last!!

Here we have the head mounting plate next to two of the throttle tubes:

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And the throttle tubes in their rough positions on the plate. The injectors will mount into drillings in the plate and as such remain in their original positions pointing at the back of the inlet valves:

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Here's the materials to make the butterflies, spindles and actuator rod (the silver bit) together with the butterfly machining attachment.

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A little shot of the attachment. It kinda sorts out all of the geometry so that the butterflies shut at 8degrees.

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A drilled bit of butterfly to be on the attachement on the lathe:

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A sexy action shot:

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And finally the finished article:

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Been turning the spindles down to 8mm this evening. Just two more to finish off tomorrow before I start slotting and drilling them to accept the butterflies :)
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Andy325i
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Post Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:47 am

How cool is this!

Full respect mate!

I can't wait to see the finished results! :thumb:


Andy
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Karan
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Post Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:53 am

damn u r good....

should make some extra up and sell them.... :D
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Post Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:17 pm

Could've done roller barrel whilst you were there :wink:
Got cable ties? Get diffin..

Arch roller for hire.

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Toby_Unna
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Post Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:35 pm

wish i had the patience to make anything as well as that!

very very impressed with that, beautiful work :cool:
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Turbo-Brown
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Post Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:36 pm

:lol: Cheers guys!

Think I'll see how these go before I start making tooling to cast them (if anyone did want a set)

I had thought about making roller barrel type affairs, but I don't really have the facilities to machine them accurately enough :(
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Turbo-Brown
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Post Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:47 pm

Ooh, just found another piccy:

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Sjoerd320i
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Post Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:50 pm

:cool: :cool:

them butterflies open when you push the throttle right?

respect to u man! :D :wink:
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Turbo-Brown
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Post Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:51 pm

They sure do!

Still making the spindles at the mo! :)
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Karan
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Post Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:52 pm

u gonna pair em up.... or is it gonna be one big thingy... or individual?
Turbo-Brown
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Post Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:01 pm

Yeah, one rectangular plate serves two cylinders (meaning I can keep the crank case vent to the block once I drill the centre one)

Then there's two tubes bolted to each plate.

Hope these will gain me some half decent throttle response that might otherwise be lost to the turbos and lengthy inlet tract :)

EDIT> Oh see what you mean!

Each tube has an individual spindle, then the long stainless bar runs the length of the engine and actuates the spindles. Nicked the idea from my M3 engine :)
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320Touring
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Post Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:52 pm

Turbo-Brown wrote:Yeah, one rectangular plate serves two cylinders (meaning I can keep the crank case vent to the block once I drill the centre one)

Then there's two tubes bolted to each plate.

Hope these will gain me some half decent throttle response that might otherwise be lost to the turbos and lengthy inlet tract :)

EDIT> Oh see what you mean!

Each tube has an individual spindle, then the long stainless bar runs the length of the engine and actuates the spindles. Nicked the idea from my M3 engine :)
man that is just so cool!looking good mate, and you must be really proud that you have made them all yourself :cool: :D

keep up the good work!!

cant wait to see a race off between you and Glenn
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Turbo-Brown
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Post Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:03 pm

I left the drilling of the spindle holes to my mate who's got accurate tooling, other than that, all my own work :)

Think Glen might just win with well over 1 1/2 times my expected power output :lol:
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Andy335Touring
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Post Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:24 pm

Nice work mate ! 8)

How are you going to make/intergrate a common vacuum signal for your FPR ?

Are you going to use an ICV ?

What adjustment have you got for balancing the throttle with each other ?

Excuse my ignorance but how does the brake servo work on a turbo car ? Some sort of accumilator/one way valve type thing ?
E30BeemerLad
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Post Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:29 pm

TurboBrown - must be a PPC reader??? In fact, is that your letter in there this month?

As you seem to be up on induction etc, what's all this we keep seeing about using bike carbs or bike throttle bodies. What sort of hasssle would I be into doing this on my M20?
Karan
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Post Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:30 pm

oh yeh... good point bout the servo..... i guess it may accumulate under overrun......???

dont all stock servos accumulate anyway for about 3 applications of the brake?
Turbo-Brown
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Post Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:59 pm

How are you going to make/intergrate a common vacuum signal for your FPR ?

Are you going to use an ICV ?

What adjustment have you got for balancing the throttle with each other ?

Excuse my ignorance but how does the brake servo work on a turbo car ? Some sort of accumilator/one way valve type thing ?
Not bothering with the vacuum signal to the FPR, as long as the ECU knows about it, they can be left disconnected so that one's pretty easy :)

Not using an ICV on this one, the idle's to be set just by cracking the throttles open a fraction. After that, idle stabilisation's taken care of by the ECU which ramps up the ignition advance if it sees the idle speed dropping. This has the effect of giving the engine a real kick up the arse so it doesn't stall.

The as you say, there's a one way valve installed in the line to the servo. Lots of N/A cars have the one way valve too to prevent any oily gasses finding their way to the servo and perishing the diaphragm. As Karan says, servos kind of accumulate their own vacuum supply and do this mostly with the throttle shut when there's lots and lots of vacuum to be had.
TurboBrown - must be a PPC reader??? In fact, is that your letter in there this month?

As you seem to be up on induction etc, what's all this we keep seeing about using bike carbs or bike throttle bodies. What sort of hasssle would I be into doing this on my M20?
I am indeed a PPC reader, and it is my letter this month :oops: didn't expect to see that published! :lol:

Think the bike carb / TB thing is just a cheap way of making a TB setup on a low budget :)

In terms of hassle, all you really need to do is find some way of mounting them on the engine, and them mounting the injectors and fuel rail to them. Lots of people seem to cut the standard manifold down and then attach the TBs to that with lengths of rubber tube.

Someone posted some piccies of just such a setup on an M20 not long ago, only problem I could see with it was that cyl No. 6's TB was practically blocked by the servo :(

Other than that, you need something to control it so an aftermarket ECU's probably on the cards.

Think if you could make a decent TB setup and use the Megasquirt, you'd have made some nice cheap power, and gained pretty electric throttle response into the bargain :D
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Karan
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Post Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:06 pm

theres been so much talk of servos with us conversion fellas recently that switching to a smaller servo shouldnt be a problem
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Post Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:15 pm

:notworthy: top man, what turbos are u gonna use? and what power are u plannin on fella?
Turbo-Brown
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Post Wed Jul 06, 2005 8:04 am

Andy335Touring wrote:
What adjustment have you got for balancing the throttle with each other ?
Sorry, forgot to answer that one!

Rally Design sell these little adjustable ball joint things which have a left handed thread on one end, and a right hand on the other so you can just tweek the threaded bit untill they're all syncronised :)
top man, what turbos are u gonna use? and what power are u plannin on fella?
Cheers johnono!

I'm using a pair of Garrett T25 turbos from a Skyline GTR. Hoping to make about 260bhp or so :)
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glenn
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Post Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:34 pm

Karan wrote:theres been so much talk of servos with us conversion fellas recently that switching to a smaller servo shouldnt be a problem
yes karan,
the thing is, it doesn't affect the power of the brakes,
it's only there for pedal assistance
the power of the brakes is a combination of piston sizes,( master and calipers) disk size and pad area.
some cars dont even have servo's, just makes the effort needed on the pedal greater :wink:
E30BeemerLad
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Post Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:40 pm

glenn wrote:
yes karan,
the thing is, it doesn't affect the power of the brakes,
it's only there for pedal assistance
the power of the brakes is a combination of piston sizes,( master and calipers) disk size and pad area.
some cars dont even have servo's, just makes the effort needed on the pedal greater :wink:
tell me about it, I drove a Ginetta G20 at a track day at Croft last October, no servo. Had to hoist myself out the seat nearly to get decent bite on the brakes. It's amazine how lazy we get with servo assistance all the time.
Turbo-Brown
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Post Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:56 pm

Think for a light enough car, no servo really improves braking feel. The GT6 was servoless and TBH, I only really noticed the need for increased pedal effort when traveling at low speeds but from 30mph upwards, they were'nt much more difficult to use than servo assisted jobbies :)

Also, the modulation was fantastic and it was so easy to tell when you were about to lock up.
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Karan
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Post Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:01 pm

yeh but how was pedal travel... as londer travel and different size master cylinder often is used with no servo setups isnt it?
Turbo-Brown
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Post Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:03 pm

Nothing horrific really. Barely noticed any difference between the GT6 and mum's Astra in terms of the brakes.
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E30BeemerLad
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Post Wed Jul 06, 2005 3:52 pm

Half of it for me was probably the clash in style of vehicles. I had driven to the track in a diesel X5, then just driven a mini cooper s, then got in the Ginetta. Car was fantastic from a feedback point of view but lot of travel on the brake pedal and pretty lifeless feel. Oh and a horrible Ford type 9 gearbox with nowhere near enough elbow room when going for 2nd & 4th gears. Apart from that it was a blast in the wet with no windscreen!